(Review Completed) [SP] Defensive Strike

[macguba]

 ;D There's no rush.

Another minor point:  don't describe Bravo as "infantry":  they should be "commandos" or "paras" or something.  Regular infantry don't do stuff like this.

After much thought I've decided that you should definitely keep Bravo's truck move in.   I know there was some debate about it and aesthetically it's not very pleased.  (And I know you put a lot of  work into it.)    However, it has two advantages: it allows the player to drive up to Bravo's position without worry, which speeds the game up; and IIRC you get another ammo dump.   So keep it with a clear conscience.

Drove to Bravo in a UAZ (comments on the base layout later) ran through the woods and approached the VCP from the north.     Far fewer loons about which is good.   First attempt I got myself shot through rank stupidity.  Second attempt got most of them but a UAZ with two loons in in drove off.   My chaps didn't shoot at it and my magazine was almost empty so they got away.    I presume the put the Base into some state of alert:  it should perhaps not be full alert.   Anyway, I decided to go back to a savegame because I want to see the base unalerted.

It's not clear whether shooting an M2 gunner puts this lot on alert - it should do.    (Shooting a roving patrol probably shouldn't  unless the sentries hear the shot or whatever.)

While we're doing this a lorry or UAZ or something should come up the road and get trashed by Bravo.    Just to prove they were worthwhile.

There is a BMP patrolling to the north of the VCP which I'm not too keen on at this stage.    I haven't seen it close up so I'm not sure what its doing but it shouldn't be patrolling the road behind a roadblock.     If you really want it there maybe it could come from the base to the roadblock and drop some loons off, picking up others to offset them:  a guard change.

Next attempt, cleared the place.   There was a UAZ zapped by one of my loons LAW, but not sure where it had come from or was going.     It was a good 100m to the southeast.

We need to make some changes to this base.  (As always when I'm beta testing, you are of course at liberty to ignore anything I say.   However, you should never bin any beta testers comments without thought.   There is usually something in them, even if you don't agree or if they are ultimately wrong.)    

There should not be a gap in the sandbags on the south side, there is no road there.   The south wall should be much nearer the road - the whole area feels a little too big.    (Cut and paste sandbad sections to avoid too much re-placement.)  There should be a total of 4 M2s:  one for each road and one facing south.     Just inside the wall beside each entrance (on the other side of the road from the M2) there should be an open tent, so that guards can check paperwork etc out of the rain.    (Oops, just found the central one ....  put it on the other side of the road, in the corner between two roads.)   There are too many ammo crates:  one of each is sufficient in a place like this.   There should be one area for ammo/fuel/junk and one for accomodation/hospital.    (You don't sleep with ammo crates right outside the tent.)    If you like you can make the officer's tent separate with a table outside.     There should be space for one or two lorries/UAZs, even if they are not there at present.

Talking of the UAZ, I'm not sure of the placement but I suspect its too hard.   It must start within the walls and must leave by the exit facing the main base - otherwise its "unfair".       Ah ha, found second UAZ outside the fence.    No good.   Make the exit wider if needs be.    

Back to the retry to tell Bravo.  The radio option needs a space after the :.    Oh I see, the BMP is outside the Base!   Shit shit shit, the junction is within sightof the base, shit, right.    We need a response from the base when the junction is attacked - the Shilka crew could see and hear the firefight.   Yes I know if they had really heard it they would have buttoned up and they haven't so in the game they haven't heard, but for a good mission we have to recognise things like line of sight.

It needn't be much:    a UAZ or a Ural with a few infantry triggered when the guards have taken a few casualties.    They'll come down with lights blazing so they shouldn't be any trouble.  (Pleased to note there were fewer loons around the junction than before ... here we have a classic case of fewer guards but a slightly more interesting and difficult objective.)

Bravo appear, nice radio chat and they disembark without trouble.  Try and get the ammo crates nearer to the truck they were under the trees and it took a minute to find.    Alternatively, they could just leave the ammo in the truck.

I don't know Bravo's exact lying up point - there should be a marker.    The radio message says "prepare to attack" but I don't know what that really means.   Will they actually attack when I use it or just move up a bit?

Anyway, I'm off for a CTR.    Actually I think I'll take a break and look at all this in the mission editor.

First base.   This base is an awful, desolate place, I've always thought.    Would never want to be posted here.    You've left it quite bare which is good (for lag reasons) and fine, but we can make more with what we've got.    Remove one of the fires.    The other is a focal point for the loons:  they are around it and maybe one or two of the patrols visit it on their way past.      Delete one UAZ and move the others into the open by the east fence:  perhaps there should be a lorry there too.      

The fancy ammo crates are in the wrong place:  you're probably trying to reward theplayer for going round there, which is good in principle.  However, we know the base is clear because of the retry and Bravo getting in safely and you can't spend your life going round behind buildings in the hope of finding a bizon.    

You've got spetznatz here so lets make the isolated building in the northwest their home.      One ammo crate of each kind (with additions of course) is placed here:  the BMP loiters somewhere else.   SN units start around here.    No fire.  Maybe some pallets with a couple of NVGs on the ground (use weaponholders) to indicate that this is SN territory and that the ammo crates - which may be discrete but not hidden - might have goodies.

The infantry hang out in the opposite corner.   Fire, vehicles, hospital, etc.   Nothing in between - this base is half forgotton don't forget.   Maybe a couple of vehicle wrecks.      (Taking away a fire and some excess ammo crates means you can add back one or two things.   If you start to run into lag problems lose some manned M2s, you've got plenty in the mission and these lights probably take up plenty of CPU time.)   Always keep thinking:  I'm the base commander (a total second rater in charge of a dump like this) what would I do?    I'm a grunt in this base, what would I do?

Keep your zero area triggers out of the action and not on top of units - it reduces the chance of you making a mistake and makes life easier for anybody trying to understand the mission.    (Not that I'm going to take it to pieces.)

Found some ammocrates in the south on the mainland.  Bad idea, you just never know where the player is going to go.   Always put stuff that's going to be setPossed on an outlying island where there is no chance of the player screwing things up accidentally.

There are too many soldiers with no waypoints.   These loons are just headless chicken fodder.    Give them Hold (safe) to start, then switch them into Join (aware) and Hold or Something when the shooting starts.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with using an invisible H as the ammo point marker, but it is more usual (and more elegant) to use a gamelogic or an invisible marker.    

At the junction they know nothing of the attack on the first base, so that main group should be in safe round a fire till west is detected in the area.    Then they can go to guard.   I would say that they may be getting to the UAZ a little early.

I'm getting tired now... at the main base easy entrance, place one guard just inside the entrance.    Give him a hold waypoint and in it make him sit down.    When the balloon goes up he can run off and join somebody but its obvious enough that that's the "unguarded" entrance - you don't need to leave it totally unguarded.     I did have one quick sneak into the base and I did desperately want that silenced glock.  I know I took the m21 but this is a good chance to make the sidearm actually contribute something to the mission - usually they don't.

I haven't followed any groups through in detail but there seem to be a lot of waypoints ... check through and see if you really need them all.

That's enough for now, hope its been helpful.   Might try and do some more tomorrow but I don't know if I can face it.   ;D   Most of my comments on the first two bases might apply to the main one as well.

[THobson]

Thanks a lot, as I said I really appreciate the comments.  I thought this mission was finished weeks ago, but it is now so much better.

Just a few comments and questions, in the same order as your posts above:

The Intro is now much improved (not up loaded yet), I now do a separate camera zoom and time zoom.  I am not convinced yet, but it is growing on me.

I didn't know about GlockS.  They now have them.

I am working on the briefing

I have tried the fade in from black at the start of the mission.  There must be something I don't know.  I tried running this script using a trigger that activates zeros seconds after the mission starts:
titleText ["", "BLACK OUT",0]
~4
titleText ["", "BLACK IN",8]
~10
exit
But it only kicks in after the start of the mission not immediately at the start.  What am I missing (don't under estimate my ignorance of how OF works)?

In the first base did you get a sidechat message from Alpha leader (you) that "They are running away" ?  This should happen as the last 4 loons make their exit from the area around the base.  You didn't mention it so I wonder if it is working.  It did when I first tested it.

The message "you have done a tidy job here" really is meant to be from Bravo, when they say it on the ground it gets lost in all their other chatter, I thought I would have them say it when they saw it from the air.  I will have another look at this.

You suggested a possible alarm sound at Base1.  I do have a Russian shout "Alarm" as they go on alert.  I didn't think such a dump would have anything as sophisticated as an electronic alarm.  Again I will have another look at this.

I have now started calling Bravo "paras".  I didn't before because it then raises the question as to why they did not drop in the way Alpha does.  Maybe something in the briefing about not enough space clear of trees for a mass drop.

I originally used the truck because of the long distance involved, but now it has been mentioned I do feel it is unrealistic.  Maybe something in the briefing about recent partisan attacks causing the Russians to be nervous about venturing out of their bases during darkness.  This briefing will become a novel if I am not careful.

The Russians are nervous and very protective of their SCUDs.  If any survivor from the road junction gets to the main base it does go on full alert.

In Base1, the road junction and the main base - killing any single Russian will put the relevant location on alert - just not immediately.  Some soldiers are not missed for several minutes, others only take seconds, but in all cases there is a minumum reaction time.  So yes killing the M2 gunner will cause the location where it is to go on alert.  This is also a cascade.  When the main base goes on alert so does the road junction (after a delay), similarly for Base1 when the road junction goes on alert.

The UAZ your guys zapped could only have been the guards from the junction escaping to the main base.  Not sure why it was southeast of you though.

On the radio instructions and spaces after the ":".  There is only so much space allowed for radio menu text after which it is truncated.  I played with the words for quite some time so I could indicate who the instruction was for and what it was.  I will have another look.

The UAZ used for the escape is outside the base to the east, next to the one you found.  I even used some tents to hide it.  I suppose it is unfair but I was conscious of the numbers of soldiers I had removed and didn't want to make it too easy.  I will work on the whole layout of the base, including this.

Now I have a problem.  How do I deal with detection of sound?  The road junction is indeed within sight of the main base and they are meant to be so nervous that any cause for concern will put them on alert.  When I clear the junction I use silenced weapons and the guards usually don't get a shot off.  In that situation I have no concerns at all about the main base being oblivious to what is happening.  But if they hear NATO weapons being fired the only logical response would be to on to alert and that would spoil the mission.  Perhaps I should only provide Warsaw Pact weapons to Alpha unless they are silenced - more in the briefing.  BTW I was relaying on the OF engine to workout whether the crew in the Shilka had a sufficient problem that they would 'turn in'.

The ammo crates were meant to be placed on a sand bank that was not reachable by foot.  I will look for somewhere else to put them.

In Base1 there are a lot of solders with no waypoints - but when the base goes on alerts they are each ordered to join one of three infantry groups.

I use the invisible H to get the chopper to land where I want and I place the ammo crate at an offset to this.

At the road junction I have one guy in the tent, two walking around the base, one sat by the fire and the rest should be standing by the fire long before Alpha gets there.  They head for the UAZ when they are down to four of them left.  I could delay this by adding a few more soldiers and get them to hang on until there are fewer of them.  Or just spread them out so they are harder to take out.  I will think about this.

On the unguarded entrance:  I did originally have a guard outside that it was just possible to sneak past.  If you are seen the base goes on alert and killing anybody will also put the base on alert, just not necessarily immediately.  This entrance is visited by two infantry patrols and the patrolling BMP so topping the guard and them not discovering it would be quite unrealistic.  Rather than have a time delay on the base alert after anyone is killed is there anyway I could have living guards raise the alarm when they see a dead one?  That way 'hide body' also becomes useful.  This is something I have thought about occasionally but I can never think of a tidy way to do it.  Your comments about using the GlockS in the base is an attractive one, but I would need to rethink the link between fatalities and the base going on alert.

Anyway, additional comments will always be welcome.  Any of your comments that I have not dealt with above are on the list to be worked, not ignored.

[macguba]

The Intro is now much improved (not up loaded yet), I now do a separate camera zoom and time zoom.  I am not convinced yet, but it is growing on me.

Play with a bit and see what you like ... it's not a big deal.

I didn't know about GlockS.  They now have them.

:thumbsup:

I have tried the fade in from black at the start of the mission.  There must be something I don't know.  I tried running this script using a trigger that activates zeros seconds after the mission starts:
titleText ["", "BLACK OUT",0]
~4
titleText ["", "BLACK IN",8]
~10
exit
But it only kicks in after the start of the mission not immediately at the start.  What am I missing (don't under estimate my ignorance of how OF works)?

At the start of a mission the game does units first, then triggers.    So triggers with "true" in the condition line don't fire until after the mission has started.  If you want something to happen immediately put it in init.sqs, or a script called from there or in the init line of a unit.

In the first base did you get a sidechat message from Alpha leader (you) that "They are running away" ?

No.   Pretty sure I didn't.   I only saw one who actually tried to run away and he was dropped.

The message "you have done a tidy job here" really is meant to be from Bravo, when they say it on the ground it gets lost in all their other chatter, I thought I would have them say it when they saw it from the air.  I will have another look at this.

Just make it from the chopper pilot instead.

You suggested a possible alarm sound at Base1.  I do have a Russian shout "Alarm" as they go on alert.  I didn't think such a dump would have anything as sophisticated as an electronic alarm.  Again I will have another look at this.

Good point, forget the alarm.

I have now started calling Bravo "paras".  I didn't before because it then raises the question as to why they did not drop in the way Alpha does.  Maybe something in the briefing about not enough space clear of trees for a mass drop.

Don't get bogged down in explanations, you could just say they are bringing in ammo.   Even calling them airborne infantry would do - just something to make them sound less ordinary.

The UAZ your guys zapped could only have been the guards from the junction escaping to the main base.  Not sure why it was southeast of you though.

They set off on a roundabout route ... I was lucky my no3 was alert and had a LAW.

The UAZ used for the escape is outside the base to the east, next to the one you found.  I even used some tents to hide it.  I suppose it is unfair but I was conscious of the numbers of soldiers I had removed and didn't want to make it too easy.  I will work on the whole layout of the base, including this.

It's right that the UAZs should be slightly hidden, but I do think they should be within the fence.     Don't worry about difficulty on this point:  difficulty can easily be adjusted by changing the size or quality of the group heading for the UAZs.

Now I have a problem.  How do I deal with detection of sound?  The road junction is indeed within sight of the main base and they are meant to be so nervous that any cause for concern will put them on alert.  When I clear the junction I use silenced weapons and the guards usually don't get a shot off.  In that situation I have no concerns at all about the main base being oblivious to what is happening.  But if they hear NATO weapons being fired the only logical response would be to on to alert and that would spoil the mission.  Perhaps I should only provide Warsaw Pact weapons to Alpha unless they are silenced - more in the briefing.  BTW I was relaying on the OF engine to workout whether the crew in the Shilka had a sufficient problem that they would 'turn in'.

Perhaps the solution is just a guard orientated towards the junction and, as you say, let the game sort it out.   Vehicle crews are a bit insensitive to things like that sometimes, you often need a foot soldier to do the detecting.

In Base1 there are a lot of solders with no waypoints - but when the base goes on alerts they are each ordered to join one of three infantry groups.

:thumbsup:   That's what I get for not studying the mission in sufficient detail ....

On the unguarded entrance:  I did originally have a guard outside that it was just possible to sneak past.  If you are seen the base goes on alert and killing anybody will also put the base on alert, just not necessarily immediately.  This entrance is visited by two infantry patrols and the patrolling BMP so topping the guard and them not discovering it would be quite unrealistic.  Rather than have a time delay on the base alert after anyone is killed is there anyway I could have living guards raise the alarm when they see a dead one?  That way 'hide body' also becomes useful.  This is something I have thought about occasionally but I can never think of a tidy way to do it.  Your comments about using the GlockS in the base is an attractive one, but I would need to rethink the link between fatalities and the base going on alert.

There are dead body detection scripts but they are messy.   I have heard tell that patrols respond to dead bodies automatically but I'm not convinced I've ever seen it happen.    Consider removing the "alarm on death" thing for some units:  obviously keep it for M2 gunners and the like.    If that entrance is so well patrolled - I must just have hit a lucky moment when there was nobody around.  

You could just have a trigger over the entrance which alerts the base if a patrol is present and the guard is dead.  After all, his missing body is as alarming as his dead one.

[THobson]

It is all progressing well.  The Intro now looks much better (great idea to have a peaceful start - thanks) it would be better still if I could control the drop shadows on the text.

I remember the other invisible H for the second ammo crate.  I now am using a Game Logic object.  Apart from identifying a location are these any other use?  They just seem like triggers without the trigger capability.

I still cannot get the mission to start by fade in from black.

I have not come across weaponholders before.

Apologies if some of these seem like newbie issues, to give some background:  I am ok as a programmer (I have been doing it for 30 years), but what I lack here is a knowledge of what is and what is not available in the OF ‘language'.  So things that I know about I can generally do quite well, but I can get stumped by not knowing some pretty basic stuff.  I know there is a lot of information on this site, sometimes it feels like too much, but there are only 24 hours a day and I still have a full time job.  The command reference guide from this site is my bible for commands, but there must be whole lists of allowed actions, explanations of things like Game Logic Objects etc. etc. that I have yet to find.  Most of what I have done here is by trial and error and by looking at how others have written their scripts.  Some of these scripts use constructs that are not referred to in the command reference guide so there must be some other documentation I have yet to find.

Still I will keep at it.

[macguba]

Lol its the same for all of us.    OFP mission creation is very much the "art of the possible" and finding out what's possible is not always easy.     There are over 800 tutes, scripts, faq items, etc on this site so simply knowing what's here is a huge job.

I pulled together a tute on gamelogics (which are very powerful although its not immediately obvious why) which is in the Ed Depot, I think its still in Pending.

For the blackin, try putting this in your init.sqs

titlecut ["","BLACK IN",3]

Weaponholders are handy.   You can't place a weapon on the ground directly from the mission editor:  a weapon is not an object.    In order to have a weapon lying around that they player can pick up you need to create a weaponholder first.    Think of a WH as an invisible ammo crate.    They are slightly funny things (as many OFP objects are) and here is some working code copied and pasted from one of my init.sqss


; add a weapon holder at the civvy cutscene
weaponH1 = "weaponHolder" createVehicle getMarkerPos "WH"
weaponH1 addMagazineCargo ["kozliceball", 4]
weaponH1 addMagazineCargo ["kozliceshell", 4]
weaponH1 addWeaponCargo ["kozlice", 1]
weaponH1 setPos getMarkerPos "WH"
weaponH1 setDir 70

I can't remember why (or even if) you have to move it to the place where its already supposed to be.   ;D  

I have a feeling that some of the fancy script constructs are not well documented:  I would go so far as to suggest that its possible that some of them were not designed into ofp scripting language, they just happen to work.    Feel free to post about them on the Advanced board and ask for more info.

[THobson]

Well what do you know!!

BLACK IN,4  in the Init.sqs file works.  I was trying BLACK OUT,0 in the Init file and triggering a BLACK IN in the mission itself.  It seemed logical enough at the time.  In fact it still seems logical - except it doesn't work!

Thanks yet again.

Good tutorial on Game Logic by the way

[THobson]

Current status (none of it uploaded yet) - all thanks to macguba:
Intro greatly improved
Base1 and Road Junction improved.

Base1 - I have lost the Spetz Natz.  There are now a few soldiers walking about, one infantry squad lazing about near the fire and one infantry squad resting in the barracks (they arrive individually at the barracks entrance some time after the base goes on alert).

Still to do:
- look at the main base
- set the weapon options and ammo crates so that the only noisy weapons available to Alpha before the final assault are Warsaw Pack weapons.  There is logic to this but are there any strong feelings to the contrary?
- look at the points I listed on my posting 9:47 on 3 July.  I do need to have several people look at the arrival of the helicopters at the end of the mission.  As an aside, this is the last time I will use helicopters as a significant part of a mission, they have a mind entirely of their own.  

Any other comments greatly appreciated.

[THobson]

New version uploaded just now.  

If anybody has any time and appetite for it I would welcome any further comments.  If any of you do a de-pbo on it you will see my learning curve.  There are triggers where scripts are better (because I didn't know how to write scripts when I did that bit) and you will see ugly scripts because I didn't then know how to write tidy ones when I did that bit.  I will be tidying this up soon.

My weekend will be spend decorating but I will get to any comments any of you make.

Thanks

By the way: The mission is now called  Defensive Strike.  I have kept the original name for the zip file to make sure the download link still works but it will find it under its new name in your Single Missions list.

[THobson]

I  made a few changes over the weekend and have just uploaded the result.

I am still not convinced the ending helicopter evacuation is stable.  I would be interested to know if anyone experiences any disfunctional behavior in the choppers at the end.

[MuSe]

Where is the new version? Maybe setting the choppers to setbehaviour careless will work? i can give you  a script if you want to make choppers land without waypoints or even with waypoints. Depends on what your doing.

Cheers, Muse

[THobson]

The new version can be downloaded from the link at the start of this thread.  

Here it is to save you going back to get it:


http://homepage.ntlworld.com/trevor.hobson/Operation%20Flashpoint/A%20Defensive%20Strike/A%20Defensive%20Strike.zip

Note you will find it under 'Defensive Strike' in your single missions list (not 'A Defensive Strilke' as previously)

It is hard to know what I need for the choppers.  I have waypoints that make chopper2 land and Bravo get in.  As you noticed this chopper sometimes lands way inland and not at the invisible H where the waypoint is.  I think I have fixed that, but it needs more testing.  The choppers are on careless, never fire.

The other chopper: well I give it a "LAND" instruction and in other missions this causes it to land and turn off its engine, in this mission it does a touch and go.  That is fine, I have constructed the end scene to fit, but as you expereinced the chopper also somethines heads off in land.  Again I think I have fixed that but it needs some testing.

If you do play it again I would also be interested in how you find the behaviour of the enemy groups in the first base.  Last night when I played it several of them headed off into the island, they will always come back as soldiers in the base take casualties (I have a script to join up the groups as they get smaller).  I have started using General Barron's AI Info sharing script and I wonder if they are all running off chasing the chopper that dropped alpha.  Or may be it is just random fluctuation.  

As ever, any comments are greatly appreciated

[MuSe]

If you want it to land without the engine being turned off use

heli1 land "get in"

I used that command in one of my campaign missions and it worked.

[THobson]

Thanks.  I tried that also, it still does a touch and go (in this mission).

What I am finding with helicopters is that they don't behave consistently from map to map or mission to mission or even from time to time in the same mission.  I am not sure why but it does require some working around.  I have an SP mission that was recently reviewed called Establish Bridgehead in which there is a major parachute drop of infantry and armour (yes I know this bit is not realistic) near Morton.  The routes for the helicopters should take them all well east of the town, but most of the time they insist on going west of the town and sometimes even overflying the town.  In the end I just changed my triggers that initiated the drop so it would accommodate wherever they decided to fly and put the result down to the chaos of war.

In Defensive Strike I use one of the helicopters in the opening scene (this works fine) and in the final scene.  In the final scene the provimity of all those dead and not so dead Russian units may be affecting its behaviour.  I'm not sure, but I think it is now sorted.

[MuSe]

yeah it does seem abit strange when they see russians, dead or alive its happened to me too. like pilot says: argh! dead russians 12 o'clock! lets get outa here before they come back from the dead!

[THobson]

This is becoming a weekly update.  But no longer.  I will be travelling for 3 weeks starting mid-next week with no access to a computer.

So here is the latest version, final except for real voices.  It should all run smoothly from end to end.

Here is the link in case you don't want to go back to the top of this thread

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/trevor.hobson/Operation%20Flashpoint/A%20Defensive%20Strike/A%20Defensive%20Strike.zip

Comments very welcome, but as I said I may not see them for a few weeks