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Missions Depot => Mission Discussion => OFP - Reviewed Missions => Topic started by: THobson on 30 May 2004, 15:37:12

Title: (Review Completed) [SP] Defensive Strike
Post by: THobson on 30 May 2004, 15:37:12
23 August 2004

*** Mission and Readme file Updated ***

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/trevor.hobson/Operation%20Flashpoint/A%20Defensive%20Strike/A%20Defensive%20Strike.zip (http://homepage.ntlworld.com/trevor.hobson/Operation%20Flashpoint/A%20Defensive%20Strike/A%20Defensive%20Strike.zip)

Background
The Russians have brought a group of SCUD-D missiles on to Kolgujev.  They must to be taken out in one strike before they are dispersed across the island.  The missiles have heavy AA cover so you will need to go in on the ground.

You will lead a team of Special Ops that will parachute into the centre of the island.  Your job is to clear the landing area for a squad of infantry (Bravo squad) arriving by helicopter.  Together you will attack and destroy the missiles.

You will have some control over the helicopters and Bravo squad by use of radio commands, but be careful, they will do as you tell them.  Tell the chopper to deliver Bravo before the first base is clear and it will fly right into trouble.

Apart from the scene of your death, there are two endings.  One where you call in the rescue helicopters before clearing all the AA, and the other (successful) ending where the rescue helicopters survive.

There are three main concentrations of Russians that you are instructed to attack: Base1, a road Junction and Base2 and they are meant to be dealt with in that order.  Bravo squad will land in Base1 so clearing that base is essential to you getting your own reinforcements.  If you bypass Base1 and attack the road junction first you will find Russians from Base1 breathing down your neck.  If you go straight to Base2 it will be reinforced from Base1 and the road junction (as well as from elsewhere - but that happens anyway).


I would really appreciate any specific comments that I can use to improve this mission.

Thanks

----------------------------------------------------------------
Mission Type: Single Player

Mission Name: A Defensive Strike (Kill the SCUDs v2.0)

      Format: PBO File
          
    Add-ons: None needed

    Flashpoint Version: Built and tested in ver 1.96

Edit: This mission has been reviewed and is available from the Missions Depot (http://www.ofpec.com/missions_depot/index.php?action=details&id=110).
Title: Re:A Defensive Strike
Post by: Dubieman on 30 May 2004, 16:53:13
I guess I'll give it a try...


And autosaves are a tricky thing as the player has one save already. Too many and the mission is too easy as you can die and then easily find who killed you and where and act accordingly. Too few and each retry is like restarting the mission.

Then again you could use the cheat for saving..... But its not recommended unless you are seriously bad at OFP. ::)
Title: Re:A Defensive Strike
Post by: Dubieman on 30 May 2004, 16:55:25
Thank god a small download!
But when submitting to OFPEC oficially its got to be in .zip form. Even though I like a .pbo for beta testing. :)
Title: Re:A Defensive Strike
Post by: Dubieman on 30 May 2004, 18:34:02
Okay I haven't finished it yet but there are a few things I would like to see changed.

-AI groupies don't need Binoculars
-very hard for the first part, increrase the difficulty as you go along

-mgs are a real pain, but realistic, leave them there

-enemy too smart, as they saw me in the dark no NVs or flares at 250m away

-maybe have an increase in group members as I lost everyone one time in 5 secs

Well my almost succesful try:
I liked the intro, good camera work. Briefing was ok, nothing wrong with it. I took the M21 but I haven't tried anything else yet so my susppicions are that the HK is better. I started in the chopper clipping along and my team was ejected and nobody died on landing. :)
But after traveling a little my guys started whining WHERE ARE YOU WHERE ARE YOU. I got them together again after a few minutes. Come to find out they are sitting there with their binoculars and checking the landscape. Please change this, 6 was 400m away from me. :(
Told everyone to drop their binoculars and moved on.
Tried every way to get into the base and none worked after an hour and a half. I had a genius idea to set my guys up in a firing line to the west of the base and bait the enemy into running after me and my m21 after popping their mg gunner. Nothing, so I crawled up and blew up one bmp then ran. It worked yeah, except as I'm defending my squad against patrols to the north they say guy at 6 o clock south 100m, okay they will take care of it.
Wham! I'm dead my squad let the two guys come up and shoot me and two others before being cut down by Hks.
Most of my guys had LAWs and even after commanding them to use HKs nothing. Urgh stupid AI, maybe increase my teammates skill.
I called in bravo a  few times to experiment and those AA soldiers (two of them?) are not very smart, one missed and the other hit the chopper on the ground. Bravo got suppressed and killed then some spetz natz blew everyone including himself up with a grenade. Weird I thought, suicide? Glitch probably.

I'd suggest decreasing the number of enemies in the first camp so you can then increase the difficulty as you go to the road and the last base.

I was really hopin to have that UH60 use its rockets and flatten the base, but nope, it would have really helped me out. :) :P But don't put that chopper part in, its my opinion.

Don't let this deter you, its a good mission that I'll try and beat.:beat:
Title: Re:A Defensive Strike
Post by: THobson on 30 May 2004, 23:14:30
Unfortunately the site I use will unzip any zipped file I upload, so it is .pbo or nothing I am afraid.

Thank you for your comments.  I have embedded my own.

-AI groupies don't need Binoculars
OK I will change this.

-very hard for the first part, increrase the difficulty as you go along
Er… well actually it does get harder

-mgs are a real pain, but realistic, leave them there
Pity their light does not move where they point the gun.

-enemy too smart, as they saw me in the dark no NVs or flares at 250m away
Are you sure it was them that saw you?  (See your comments about patrols to the north and south)  Bye the way there are quite a few NV Officers.

-maybe have an increase in group members as I lost everyone one time in 5 secs
I would like to see what others think about this.  I have just had a run through and lost none of my squad.  Some of Bravo would also have survived had I not killed the last ones when I took out the SCUDs. but as I said in my readme file I know how it works.

I liked the intro, good camera work.
Thanks

Briefing was ok, nothing wrong with it. I took the M21 but I haven't tried anything else yet so my susppicions are that the HK is better.
The m21 is a bit of a give away in the dark

But after traveling a little my guys started whining WHERE ARE YOU WHERE ARE YOU. I got them together again after a few minutes. Come to find out they are sitting there with their binoculars and checking the landscape. Please change this, 6 was 400m away from me.  

I am not sure what to do about this.  They bale out very close together at high speed.  I will check to see if I have miss set something

Tried every way to get into the base and none worked after an hour and a half. I had a genius idea to set my guys up in a firing line to the west of the base and bait the enemy into running after me and my m21 after popping their mg gunner. Nothing
I have now fixed this.  The base goes on alert if any of the mgs (etc.) are taken out.

, so I crawled up and blew up one bmp then ran. It worked yeah, except as I'm defending my squad against patrols to the north they say guy at 6 o clock south 100m, okay they will take care of it.
Wham! I'm dead my squad let the two guys come up and shoot me and two others before being cut down by Hks.
Most of my guys had LAWs and even after commanding them to use HKs nothing. Urgh stupid AI, maybe increase my teammates skill.

OK I will have a look at that.  I think I did give them a bit of a boost over the default.

I called in bravo a  few times to experiment and those AA soldiers (two of them?) are not very smart, one missed and the other hit the chopper on the ground.
Every time I do this the chopper is taken out first shot - that's what is good about this game it is never the same.  Maybe I had better put another AA soldier in.

I'd suggest decreasing the number of enemies in the first camp so you can then increase the difficulty as you go to the road and the last base.
The road junction is not too difficult but the final base is more difficult than the first one.  As I said I would like to see how others get on.

I was really hopin to have that UH60 use its rockets and flatten the base, but nope, it would have really helped me out.   But don't put that chopper part in, its my opinion.
That would be too easy - except of course for the AA.

Thanks again.
Title: Re:A Defensive Strike
Post by: Dubieman on 31 May 2004, 02:06:10
Yeah so many unknowns here. I know your gonna wait for others to test  it. But remove the binoculars off the AI team members. The reason 6 was so far away was becasue of the binocular problem. Well I'll give the base another try tomorrow with an HK.

And are all the LAW guys used when you test the mission cause I know you probably cruise through it cause your the designer?
I ask this because 4/6 ppl in my group are holding laws up when in danger, keep low, and engage at will.
This only leaves me and the medic with rifles at the ready.
Well 1 and a 1/2 cause I had the M21. :P

If I fail horribly then I'll bypass the first base and let Bravo deal with it to see what the road and the last base are like.

GRK out
 :cheers:
Title: Re:A Defensive Strike
Post by: THobson on 31 May 2004, 11:28:04
I am puzzled by the LAW thing.  It is not something I experience.  If there is armor around or if they have just killed armor then they do keep holding their LAWs otherwise they seem pretty good with the HKs.  I suppose you could tell them to use their HKs but that is a pain.

Are all the LAWs used?  Well in total the mission has 14x armor units (BMP/Shilka/T72/T80) and 6x SCUD almost all of which needs to be destroyed to complete the mission, but then you do have Bravo to help with some of it.

Bye the way, all the AI in your squad is on maximum ability.
Title: Re:A Defensive Strike
Post by: Dubieman on 31 May 2004, 15:21:28
I'm not sure it may be the way I set my guys up. I'll try a test mission to see what LAW guys do when they are ordered to go prone and are in danger mode.

I'll stop complaining until I can beat some this mission.

cya
Title: Re:A Defensive Strike
Post by: dmakatra on 31 May 2004, 17:19:39
I'm gonna try this out. Downloading now. :)

:beat: *Gets Shot* :beat:
Title: Re:A Defensive Strike
Post by: dmakatra on 31 May 2004, 18:58:03
OVERVIEW:
Like the text but you need to rework it and make it smaller so you can fit in a pic there as well.
INTRO:
:-\
BRIEFING:
Good, good. Could use a handgun though. And remove those binocs, AI can't use them very good. BTW, I can't see why Bravo can't paradrop with me directly? Must be much smarter.
MISSION:
Make that the intro instead. I don't want to watch that every time I play the mission.
I wouldn't mind a retry pos after the jump.
I got some msgs from some dude Charlie Red 1, said he was closing in and was ready to drop me? WTF? I allready jumped.
So I took the base m-kay? Easy. Lost one man though. Anyway, called in the chopper. Unfortunatley, Bravo got caught in some kind of bug and stayed at the base. WTF?
So I took the crossroads myself. Harder than the base, especially since I had no support. My guys started shooting at the emtpy M2s, this is a weirdo bug that OFP has and I don't think anyone know what causes this. But you have to remove those M2s and replace them with something cause the player don't want to see this happen. Under no circumstances.
Anyway, I lost another dude and since I had to do all the work myself cause my AI was set to hold fire I ran out of ammo. I got back to the base. Bravo was still in that bug.
Attackted the base, 3 and 6 got wacked before I got there and it was just me and good ol' 2 left. We cleared the camp by ourself. Unfortunatley, 2 got wacked during clean up duty. :-\
Blammed the SCUDs, called the chopper. And what happens? After all this fighting with no support from Bravo or anything the chopper got knocked down by a shilka. WTF? I didn't know there were 3 shilkas (wacked 2 of em) !! I assumed it was clear. OK, maybe my fault but it wasn't a surprise, it was really annoying. You have to add those shilkas to an objective. Like "Clear the area of tripple A" or something like that.
Conclusion:
I found this very fun even without Bravo since I got it a bit harder and I'm quite a good player. Although that bug REALLY needs to be fixed. Also, remove the M2s and add that shilka objective and we have a neat mission that is something extra out of the ordinary.

:beat: *Gets Shot* :beat:
Title: Re:A Defensive Strike
Post by: THobson on 01 Jun 2004, 11:58:42
To:  The Real Armstrong.

Thank you for your helpful comments.  First let me admit to being a bit new to some of this so for example I don't know how to put a picture in the Overview.  I will add this to the list of thing I need to figure out.

Hand gun:  Which would you like?

AI with binoculars - I will take these out.

I have not figured out how to make an intro - I will look at that.

Charlie is the call sign of the chopper that drops you.  You were not supposed to bale out, just wait in the helicopter until you are ejected.  Can I stop someone baling out themselves?

What does m-kay mean?

Bravo bug:  This also happened to me for the first time last night.  On investigating I found that one member of the squad was just standing around and not attempting to board the truck.  The only solution I found then was to shoot him, the truck then moved off.  This seems to be an intermittent problem.  I think it is due to two members of Bravo being assigned as the driver.  I assign one and I suspect that sometimes this may come after an automatic assignment.  I have recently moved a few waypoints so that could be why it is new.  I will remove the assignment I have coded in and just allow the driver to be assigned automatically and see if that fixes it.

The Road junction/crossroads.  You will always have to do this yourself.  Bravo drive to close by, get out of the truck and take up a defensive position facing back the way you came.  They just watch your back while you do the business.

On the Machine Guns.  I also noticed that sometimes my guys would just keep shooting when there was nothing as far as I could see to shoot at.  I had not realised it was the empty machine guns.  This is a new ‘feature', I don't recall it happening before - it is also intermittent.  I will replace all the East MGs with Empty MGs and then assign a Russian as the gunner to see if that fixes it.

Actually there should be 4 Shilkas.  I thought it might be more realistic not to know that - but I can understand the frustration.  I like your idea of making clearing the AA a separate objective and I will do that.

It will take a little while to do this.  I will let you know when I have updated it in case you wish to try again.

I have also completely re-written the radio system.  There are separate channels for giving instructions to Bravo, Charlie (your Chopper) and Delta (Bravo's chopper), that will be in the next update.

Thanks again for your time and comments.
Title: Re:A Defensive Strike
Post by: dmakatra on 01 Jun 2004, 15:32:34
Hand gun:  Which would you like?
Doesn't matter, just pick a NATO one.

Charlie is the call sign of the chopper that drops you.  You were not supposed to bale out, just wait in the helicopter until you are ejected.  Can I stop someone baling out themselves?
I did not bail out myself, I was automaticly ejected. Locking the vehicle will stop the player from ejecting, not AI though.

What does m-kay mean?
OK.

Thanks again for your time and comments.
Now, about that check you're supposed to send me... ;D

:beat: *Gets Shot* :beat:
Title: Re:A Defensive Strike
Post by: THobson on 01 Jun 2004, 16:14:23
So you were automatically ejected - which is what should happen - and then you got messages from Charlie about dropping you!  That is totally wierd.  You should only get 2 messages: 1. Crossing enemy coast and 2. Appraching drop zone.  Shortly after that you get ejected.  I must have played that part of the mission over a hundred times and never got anything else.

I don't even know how to begin testing this.

Anyway it will take quiet a bit more work before I upload a modified version.

Seriously - thanks for the comments, they are really helpful
Title: Re:A Defensive Strike
Post by: Dubieman on 02 Jun 2004, 03:57:51
Well I have been busy and had no time to post yet. I beat it. I used totally diff tactics, I just kept shooting everyone from my pos above the base on the hill, I let them come to me and my HK death squad.

Its not too hard, its good, I don't know what the prob was before....

ONE glaring problem: Two bmps in 1st base, one rushed me and got rocketed.

THe other was driving aroud and the crew got out and rushed my team on foot? I killed them quickly and started picking off mgs with the law and rpg I picked up.
Then bombarded the base and wiped out any thing I saw.
I let bravo come in and the UH60 was never touched maybe except for a few bullet holes. Bravo lost two and cleared the place for me.  :)

So I went down and reloaded ammo and healed. Got in bmp. Bravo wouldn't move in their truck so I busted it with my bmp ramming it. They moved on but were of no help later in the mission. I think they ran into a squad or bmp or sumthing. :'(

I rushed the raod and took it while taking one glance of a RPG. PHEW! Lots of infantry so I unloaded everyone and went to manuel fire. They all died, oh well. A bmp responded and I got real panicky but he didn't fire!?
I dispatched him via sabot and moved on to the base and NO ONE fired a single shot!? I bumped off the scuds and 3 AA when a shilka and bmp came and I saved. The bmp and shilka attacked and I died so restart and I had a really messed up bmp by then, nearly all red. I took out everything after and a lot of infantry. I thought the t80 might get angry but I figured out they were toasted ( the crew). I stole the t80  ::) and wrecked more havoc on any and all enemies. Everything was dead and I couldn't call in the chopper so I scouted out the raod and blew up the remaining guns and found out bravo is down, oh well, moved on to the evac and nothing would come, no radio commands and I lit those fires and nothing happened still.
Spent 5 mintutes trying to end it, I got out of the tank too.
No shilkas either. :P

Finally just used the endmission thing to see if an outro was there. No outro, I'm sure you put one in.
Fix that bmp thing and the last chopper part.

Otherwise listen to armstrong's remarks for everything else. 8)
Title: Re:A Defensive Strike
Post by: THobson on 02 Jun 2004, 09:17:38
Thanks.  It is a real insight hearing how others get on with it.  I think I know the problem with Bravo and the truck.  I will also write a script to fix them if they hang up in future.

NO ONE fired at you in the final base!!  I will need to look at that.

I think I know the problem with the final helicopter.  It was caused by the problems with Bravo (don't ask).  That is fixed in the version I am working on now (not yet up loaded), that will have a much more refined set of radio commands.

Thanks for your comments, I am sorry the end did not work properly
Title: Re:A Defensive Strike
Post by: Dubieman on 02 Jun 2004, 20:03:18
I'll make one comment here, the ppl inside the base didn't shoot at me. Every other enemy outside of the base did.

Try to prevent the player from getting in the bmp in the first place and the T80, I shouldn't have that much firepower. ::)

Wait one solution to why I wasn't shot at, I think the commander was still chillin in the bmp, I'm not sure if he was dead or not but when I asked my team to get in the bmp wasn't marked white in the text, it was still red so I think that the enemy still being the tank was the problem.
They didn't want to shoot their own. :o
Title: Re:A Defensive Strike
Post by: THobson on 04 Jun 2004, 19:58:38
Thanks.  I have now locked all the east armor as well as making a whole range of other revisions that I think deal with all the problems you and The Real Armstrong found.  

I have also completely re-written the radio commands giving a lot more flexibility for this (and future) mission(s).

The readme file is more extensive and explains a lot.  

New files uploaded today

If anyone gets chance to try it I would very much welcome any comments
Title: Re:A Defensive Strike
Post by: THobson on 06 Jun 2004, 15:52:26
OK I think this is now in its final stages - just an Intro to write.  Everything else fixed.

I have also moved the site from which you download - It now all comes down in one zip file instead of the pbo and readme files coming separately.

Apart from The Real Armstrong and GRK has anyone had chance to have a look at this?
Title: Re:A Defensive Strike
Post by: Gooner861 on 06 Jun 2004, 16:10:41
Downloading now m8, this will be my first time beta testing so i dunno how useful my input will be.......
Title: Re:A Defensive Strike
Post by: Gooner861 on 06 Jun 2004, 16:39:58
Well just played first parts of it, aint got time to complete it all:

Overview:
I liked it, nice pic.

Briefing:
Very clear, simple, not to much writing which is always good, markers worked.

Cutscene:
Armstongs rite, u shud make this ur intro cos its way to long to watch every single time. Its not bad either, showing the camp but not the most exciting cutscene.

Mission:
Parachuting worked fine. Only thing i dnt like is having to run ALLLLL that way, but i suppose u can't drop right on the enemy  ;D .
Flare went up and all hell broke loose, the mgs let loose and i had to dash for cover, took out the BMP. Thought i was safe at the base of the hill but i get hearing "enemy officer 4' o clock" which was behind me but i thought my guys cud get them. Advanced on the base took out the mgs, i advanced a little more than BANG BANG, i was dead sum1 got me frm behind.

I'll try again sum other time. I aint a big fan myself of black op missions but this one seems interesting and fun. Looks good so far.
Title: Re:A Defensive Strike
Post by: THobson on 06 Jun 2004, 20:43:24
Thanks for the comments.  I suppose I had better make the opening scene an Intro then.  A pity because I don't think it would mean much until after you have read the briefing.  But if it puts people off playing it it isn't worth it.

It is a long way to the first base from where you drop.  A few points on that, 1. the helicopters don't always fly along the shortest route between waypoints and you certainly don't want to be flying too close to the base - well not untill you have dealt with the AA that is. 2.  There are a lot of trees around and I have tried to land you in a clearing - trees can be fatal when parachuting.  3. when you got to the base you found you had soldiers behind you.  Maybe there is less distance to go than you think!

I am glad you liked the pic in the Overview.  It seems most people use a screen shot from the mission and so I wondered if that was a requirement.

Well I hope you get another chance to try it, there is still a very long way to go.

Title: Re:A Defensive Strike
Post by: THobson on 07 Jun 2004, 19:23:27
OK,  by popular demand I have changed the cutscene at the start of the mission into an Intro - so you do not need to watch it every time.

I have also made the 4th Shilka arrive a bit earlier, changed when the savegames occur and a few othe bits of cosmetic stuff.

But my goodness making an Intro has increased the size of the file to 5 time what it was before.  Does anyone have any suggestions about what I might be doing wrong?

I will see if I can reduce the size and if I can I will post an update.
Title: Re:A Defensive Strike
Post by: Gooner861 on 07 Jun 2004, 19:57:52
How big's the file now?
Title: Re:A Defensive Strike
Post by: THobson on 07 Jun 2004, 21:47:26
The zip file is now about 3Mbt!  Compared with about 700K before adding the Intro

This is odd.  The sum total of all my scripts, htm's, the mission file and the overview briefing is about 500K in total.  Clearly converting it all into pbo file adds a lot of padding.
Title: Re:A Defensive Strike
Post by: Gooner861 on 07 Jun 2004, 21:58:05
Do u have any custom music? I m having that problem now wit my mission, its 3 megs but thats wit custom music.
Title: Re:A Defensive Strike
Post by: THobson on 07 Jun 2004, 22:00:46
No there is no custom music or sound files.  

My son has written a mission with Intro custom musci etc. and that is 3Mbt.  Seems like standard size
Title: Re:A Defensive Strike
Post by: Dubieman on 07 Jun 2004, 22:53:38
I don't know if you want to do this but I leave out my intro, outro, and music until its submitted officially to OFPEC so I have some new stuff to present to the public who might have already tested it. Plus it keeps the file size down... :)

Title: Re:A Defensive Strike
Post by: Gooner861 on 07 Jun 2004, 23:42:53
Yeah thats quite agud idea actually, mite try that myself. But how have u left out ur outro and intro wen .pbo ing it? or have u just not made ur intro etc by that time?
Title: Re:A Defensive Strike
Post by: Dubieman on 08 Jun 2004, 00:31:48
Well I'm currently learning camera.sqs so I don't have an outro or intro yet. But I would think that they are scripts right? So just remove them from the mission folder before you .pbo it.

Think about it though, wouldn't you want to make your intro and outro after you make the mission? So it fits in perfectly with the mission itself?
Title: Re:A Defensive Strike
Post by: Gooner861 on 08 Jun 2004, 10:12:04
Yeah ur rite camera.sqs r scripts.

I already had though out what everything wud look like in my intro and outro before making it but yeah it is best to create the mission than do ur cutscenes as u will know what u wanna do. I'll try that now and c what happens and what the file size of my mission is.
Title: Re:A Defensive Strike
Post by: THobson on 08 Jun 2004, 20:31:53
I am not sure it is as simple as just leaving out the camera.sqs for the Intro.  It seems to me that it is something to do with the units on the Intro map.  But even then it is puzzling, I have less units, waypoints, everything, on the Intro map than I do in the main mission, but having the Intro seems to increase the file size by many times.  I have the same camera.sqs. for my Intro as I had before when it was used for an opening cutscene.
Title: Re:A Defensive Strike
Post by: Dubieman on 08 Jun 2004, 20:36:51
Maybe intro.sqm or sqs whichever it is is a larger file, more than the mission.sqm but I think you don't want to destroy your whole intro right now just to make it a little shorter download for us.

Its your decision, this is the first time I've posted a beta of a mission so I'm still rather new to it. :)
Title: Re:A Defensive Strike
Post by: Gooner861 on 08 Jun 2004, 21:07:11
Just wondering GRK where did u put ur mission Lost in Translation so that people cud upload it, i read that ur file will be bout 4.5 megs. Wot site u use?
Title: Re:A Defensive Strike
Post by: Dubieman on 08 Jun 2004, 21:29:10
My file will be 4.5 megs once my little linkin park music is planted in there. ;D
Right now its like 23kb or 30 kb or something like that, I'm not sure.

Right now I'm just staying with the forum.

If you want to know about websites I heard freewebs worked, otherwise check my topic:websites? in mission depot Q's/comments where I got my Q answered. ;)
Title: Re:A Defensive Strike
Post by: THobson on 08 Jun 2004, 22:16:48
I would rather not mess with it now,  I think the mission is now pretty much done and I am just waiting to see if there are any more comments before looking for something else to do.

I was not in favour of moving the opening cut scene to being an Intro but I now think it was a good suggestion, it fits well and it is easier to get into the mission if you don't need to see the scene again.

The large file size was not a pleasant surprise though.

As for free web sites you could look at http://www.1asphost.com/ (http://www.1asphost.com/)  The only problem being that it will unzip any zip file you upload.  I used it until I found my ISP had already provided me with some web space already.



Title: Re:A Defensive Strike
Post by: Gooner861 on 09 Jun 2004, 16:13:44
I shud be able to play more on saturday, im stuck with school work. U will just have to wait  ;D but the rest sounds good from wot ive read.
Title: Re:A Defensive Strike
Post by: macguba on 10 Jun 2004, 17:37:59
Right, a quick go.   The enormous file size is because of the psd files, I don't know what they are but I suspect they were part of your jpg creation process and they can come out.   The jpgs themselves are not the problem.

Overview - lovely.   It's conventional to add your name:  put it on a second page if you like.

Intro - fine.   The lads are right that this should be an Intro rather than an opening cutscene.

Plan - Why do we need to take these secondary objectives first?  

Notes - Need more information on what Bravo is going to do at the road junction.  "Watch your back" is not specific enough.    

Gear/Squad - you have an excess of Berettas.   I would offer just one each of M21 and M60, and possibly also M16/M203 as well.  Reduce the number of mags available too.

Mission -

Would suggest Blackhawk with MG rather than rockets.    The third radio text should be more dramatic "Green on - Go! Go! Go!"

Drop went beautifully.   enableradio false until the player is ont he ground.    Chopper hangs around hovering for a long time after we
land.     "Please send Bravo" should be radio message 1 and a little more military and snappier "Bravo insertion - go".

Moved south towards the base.   It felt like a scripted flare/BMP trap:   have the flares going the whole time, not just when you approach.      Lost a loon so went exploring and got shot.

/more later
Title: Re:A Defensive Strike
Post by: THobson on 10 Jun 2004, 21:16:39
Macguba.

Thanks.  I did use a psd file to create the jpg, but I now only have a jpg in the mission directory (how did you know there was a psd involved?).

Ok I will put my name in the Overview

Secondary objectives: two reasons - these soldiers will reinforce the main base if thay are left alive, also the first base is a good location for Bravo to be dropped off.  I presume you didn't mean the answer to be put here rather it should be put in the Briefing.  I will do that.

I will give a better explanation of what Bravo will be doing also.  In fact they guard the road you will have just travelled along to ensure nothing comes up behind you while you are taking the road junction.

I will also have a look at the weapons load out.  I was a bit generous.

I will also look at the chopper used.  They don't actually use their weapons at all though.  Why would you prefer MGs?

The chopper sometimes hangs around and sometimes not.  I think it just depend on how long it takes to get close enough to the waypoint before it heads off to wait to pick you up later

I am not a fan of the over the top boy's own language in the radio communication.  I prefer something a bit more understated and polite.  It feels more realistic (to Brit anyway)

The only scripts are for the ejection from the chopper, the flares, the radio, the vehicle smoke, the cutscenes and a couple of bug fixes for if Bravo decides not to get in the truck or the chopper.  Nothing else.  It is all done with waypoints and triggers and I do not cheat with any 'knowsabout' either.

The flares start when the base goes on alert, I am not sure they would be firing them off before that.  Why would you prefer them to be going from the start?

I hope there is more later - you have a long way to go - and your comments are helpful
Title: Re:A Defensive Strike
Post by: macguba on 10 Jun 2004, 22:02:07
Chopper with MG would just feel more realistic than with rockets for a specops insertion.   Not a big deal.

Style in radio chat is of course entirely a matter of taste.   I'm a Brit myself so I know what you mean about OTT Yanks.   ::)

Depbo'd the file to find out why it was so big - the psds are in there.

If the chopper is just being an arsey chopper in hanging around, then so be it - choppers are like that sometimes.

There is more to come, on my first attempt at the base we were detected at 500m out without firing, which just seemed a bit harsh.     It's possible, if you want, that the base would be firing flares beyond the perimeter at random intervals - you don't see it much now, what with NVGs and all, but once upon a time it was a standard defence measure.    Again, not a big deal, entirely a question of aesthetics.

When you say the flares are scripted I hope you mean there is a script to make the guards fire them, (which is fine) not that you are camcreating them out of thin air.

On my second attempt I headed southeast and went through the woods to come at the base from the northeast.       Dropped an M2 guard (I have M21, my boys all still have HKs) and was pleased to see the base go on alert.    Snipefest followed, took out one BMP and a fair few baddies.    Moved back into the woods then back out again a bit further west to continue the snipefest and take out the second BMP.   Some of the enemy came quite close but no problem taking them out.    There are too many headless chickens running around the base, have them recombine into new, smaller squads, and then do something a bit more constuctive.     You might need to bump up the average rank a little to help reduce temporary fleeing.

Cleared the base no bother, retry (good), called in Bravo, found the field hospital which is correct and inevitable in a well constructed mission like this), Bravo arrived, found ammo crates and stocked up.    There should be a little more radio chatter between you and Bravo - all I got was "OK see you at the junction."

Bravo drove off in a lorry (what happens if it is damaged/destroyed?) and we followed in a UAZ.  Passed them, parked up, ran north through the woods into the next woods and approached the junction from the north west.    I confess I didn't like this bit at all:   we just lay there sniping endless headless chickens, I did a bit of spotting through the scope for my boys but it was all pretty pointless really.   Couple of BMPs turned up but they were too late and were taken out without comeback.   Moved cautiously into the camp, quite a few of the guards had run away a bit towards the sea.    Retry.    

The camp itself was poor:   I like that you have M2s pointing up each road but you should have fewer of them (one each) and more fences.   There should be more tents and debris for an encampment of this size: a hospital almost on its own always looks a bit bare.   There were far too many guards and they were not sufficiently organised:  for example, when it gets down to the last 4 (say) they should all hop into a UAZ and bug out to the north.   I don't like to see spetz natz mixed up with regular infantry, particularly not at an ordinary VCP.    Bravo should start to come up at the end of the battle, following a little radio chatter with us.

Eventually figured out that I had to call Bravo (duh-oh) and they came up and dropped off the ammo crates, which we sorely needed.    However they all stood around aimlessly in safe mode, they should have another waypoint to get them organised and into aware.



/more later
Title: Re:A Defensive Strike
Post by: THobson on 10 Jun 2004, 22:31:04
OK the chopper now has an MG.

I have relented a bit on the style of the radio chatter.

I will see what I can do about the psd files.  They are not in the misison directory now so I don't know how they are getting into the mission file.

I gave the chopper another waypoint to go to - that seemed to sort it.

The flares are fired by real officers of course!!  The script gets the officers to fire and then gives them another flare - otherwise it would be 3 shots each only before they run out.  Kill the officers and you stop the flares.  I like the idea of the odd random flare as well even when not on alert.  I will look at that.

I will also look at the behaviour of the Russians in the base and the radio chatter with Bravo.

Keep going...

Bye the way on your previous post you felt it harsh to be spotted so far from the base - how do you know it was people in the base that spotted you?
Title: Re:A Defensive Strike
Post by: macguba on 10 Jun 2004, 23:57:47
Lol I don't know who spotted us, but I didn't see anybody and my loons didn't report or shoot anybody else.   Are there patrols around there?

Anyway, heading on.    I told Bravo to set off and followed them, trying to count them as we went.   We passed through them and went onto the next wood to come at the base from the north.   I got a clean sight of the M2 gunner at the entrance facing Bravo and, stupidly, couldn't resist the shot.    Pop.   Starting popping off left right and centre after that of course, by boys took out a BMP but a tank shell saw to all three of them at once.   I called Bravo in and tried to take out guards at their end of the base, but the tank got into them and there was a lot of "Alpha we have a man down".   I got on with the popping ... there are a lot of loons to pop.   Add a bit more info from Bravo, telling you where they are.   Change some of the man down texts for variety - I liked that we were told when they were down to half.   You don't have to report every single casualty, its the overall thrust of what's happening to Bravo that's important.

Ran out of ammo, picked up an HK and went down to the base.    Got a message that Bravo was down to 2 then 1 man.    Sneaked in, dropped a couple of loons and a BMP with my RPG.    Went round the back of the hospitals and scuds, picked up a Bizon and some satchels, dropped a couple more loons, got a message saying Bravo was down, planted and blew up the satchels, got a radio call from Bravo saying well done lets get out of here but Bravo is dead and the AA objective isn't ticked.   (The others are.)   Retry.

Well lets hunt around and see if there is a Shilka somewhere.    There is still a tank and a couple of guards wandering around.    Drop some more guards ... the Shilka must be to the south, otherwise I would have seen it by now ... leave by the gate and sure enough, two Shilkas here.      Message saying Bravo have been wiped out again.  

Managed to get myself shot through bad play.   Well its late and I'm tired, maybe more tomorrow.    I can guess the rest - a few more guards and another pair of Shilkas somewhere.

Overall it's a good mission, but I have to say I think it too big.    Three full scale assaults, plus Shilka hunting, is too much to be pleasing.    I would scale it down a little, perhaps remove some Shilkas and/or reduce the garrison at the junction.   (Actually I'd do that anyway.)    At both bases the guard groups need more waypoints after the alert - there was just far too much random running around.   There should be patrols sent to specific locations (e.g. where you are detected, the main gate, the scuds, fuel station, certain parts of the perimeter, etc.) when the alert occurs, rather than having all of them just run around.   Put some on seek and destroy, some on guard, etc.    Have them join up when they get too small - small groups are bad, and groups should always be commanded by at least a corporal and really a sergeant, to prevent them from fleeing too much.  Fewer guards, better placed and with better waypoints would make for a better mission.

Anyway, that's it for now.  Well done.
Title: Re:A Defensive Strike
Post by: THobson on 11 Jun 2004, 08:13:27
Thanks.  I will have a look at all that tonight/tomorrow.  Especially the radio messages from a dead  Bravo squad and the repeat message that they are dead!  I have used a mixture of Hold, Guard and Seek and Destroy waypoints but I don't have small groups joining up.  I will have a go at that, and also get them to head to some specific locations

I might drop the two reinforcing Shilkas - make them BMPs or T72s, and leave it to just the two Shilkas at the base that you can see in the Intro.  See it is worth watching it.

Yes is is long.  I recon on about 1 1/2  hours.  But I really enjoy it.  Taking the first base and the road junction without loss, then coordinating your attack with Bravo on the main base, fighting to the SCUDs and back again, taking out the shilkas, calling in Bravo's chopper getting into position to cover Bravo's retreat and then getting them to disengage.  Eventually seeing Bravo emerge in ones and twos from the base and head for their chooper is one of the bigest thrills I have ever had from OF.  Maybe it is just me.

Anyway.  Thanks again for your comments.  I will be busy tonight.
Title: Re:A Defensive Strike
Post by: macguba on 11 Jun 2004, 12:05:57
Lol no its not just you.   Seeing the remains of Bravo emerge would have been great.   I wouldn't have sent them in so early if I hadn't been beta testing, but I wanted to make sure they all died.    

Final bit:  blew a couple of holes in the wall to get to the three shilkas on the seaward side:  the fourth was patrolloing with the tank and I took it out from across the base.   (tick)  The tank came up to my position so I moved away and took him out with rockets.   Immediately there was a message from Bravo calling in Delta:   I'm not sure if the base is clear, I suspect one more loon running around though I haven't seen him for a while.   Maybe not.

Did a test run - yes there are still guards inside the base.  Decided to leave them to it, jumped into a Ural and headed for the evac zone.   Found a damaged tank which took only one missile - he hadn't even seen me.   Ran over a wandering soldier and yes, Bravo has been wiped out again, poor sods.     He was standing by a fire and I now remember something about beacons.

Checked the Briefing - tell us how many beacons there are to light.   Radio messages... there is one about disengage - make it "Bravo disengage" so that it is clear who the message is for.   (The next is on channel 3, not that it really matters but its good practice either to have one radio message per channel, or just use 1 and 2 all the time for all messages.   Not a bit deal, it's just cleaner.)    The other says Bravo dead - RTB but I don't know who that message is to or what it is for.     Never use abbreviations unless they are explained somewhere.   (In all writing, not just in OFP.)    Lots of people will know it means return to base but lots won't.

I lit one fire and quickly ran away from it ... another one started automatically.   I got an evac radio message, which I used.   Tried the others as well and got sidechat text for each.

Chopper came in from a rather unexpected direction - I thought it would be from the sea or the southwest, the insertion direction, and the cutscene kicked in.   Start it a little later, when the chopper is closer, with the music starting and then blackout and blackin.   I hope any remaining enemy are zapped at this point, to prevent accidents.    Cutscene was fine, I like your speeded up time in the intro and outro cutscenes - it works well.  (In the opening one the speed time goes on slightly too long and you can see stars manically screaming across the sky).    This cutscene is too long at the end, fade it out a little earlier.  Oh, and lose the targets behind the hospital parade, they are a nuisance.

7hrs 27 mins
5 gold stars 43,000
all green ticks apart from cover bravo's dep which is still just blob - should be red cross since they all died
137 kills
2 bmps
t80
t72
4 shilka
6 scuds

Difficulty level is always hard to judge but here it is about right.   There are an awful lot of guards to shoot but quite rightly you provide lots of ammo.     Improving their waypoints and so on will make the mission more difficult, so to offset that you should reduce the number a little.    It was fine on my machine (benchmark 5400) but there might be a lag problem for lower end comps.

Re-read my posts above - I may have written some stuff while you were writing.    

That's it.  Whew.
Title: Re:A Defensive Strike
Post by: Dubieman on 11 Jun 2004, 19:58:53
Two things:

1.) Thobson, did you put in your own particle effects?
Destroyed bmps at the first base smoked with little sparks coming out. This may be my version of the game or 1.96.... I dunno.

2.)Macguba said he had 137 kills, I think that's a little much. After playing you may feel good, but that makes it arcadeish, like Doom where I killed 350 mutants or something. I'm no expert on battles but from books I've read and Snypirs realistic mission, 130 is a little too much for one person to kill. I was thinking around 50 tops. Don't drastically change your mission, but take this into account. ;)
Title: Re:A Defensive Strike
Post by: THobson on 11 Jun 2004, 20:19:52
macguba,

Thanks I really appreciate it.  On the Radio I use 1. to instruct Bravo, 2. to instruct Charlie (your chopper) and 3. to instruct Delta (Bravo's chopper).  I will but that in the radio menu itself to help make it clear who is being spoken to.

There are indeed patrols between the drop zone and the first base.  It seems to catch everybody so I will mark them on the map.  The random flares would help here as well.  I will mark the locations of the shilkas on the map also - and loose the fourth.

I don't know how to get rid of the targets - they come with the base!

You suggested I make patrols go to where I have been detected, is there a way to do that other than to use the Guard waypoint?  (I don't want to start cheating with 'knowsabout')

The black blob for Bravo was deliberate, you get a red cross for leaving before they do (if there are any left that is) and a green tick for getting survivors off the island first.  On reflection a red cross for having them wiped out is a good idea.

I am really puzzled by the number of time you were told Bravo were wiped out.  I will do a search of the mission.sqm to see what is going on.

I think you are the only person apart from me to see the end scene and the symmetry with the opening scene.  Let me explain a problem I have with the length of the opening scene.  The mission starts at 00:30, the opening scene starts 16 hours later.  To get back to 00:30 the cutscene time acceleration needs to cover 8 hours, and a lot of that is in the dark.  Advance the time too slowly and the cutscene goes on too long advance too quickly and dusk goes by in a blink.  I will play with the settings to see if I can improve it- also I will try it with an overcast sky so you can't see the stars.  On thinking abut it, now the scene is an Intro it doean't really matter what time it ends - just so long as it is dark.

This is only part of my response to your comments.  I will be working on the mission for a while.  I am not sure I will be able to do all you suggest but I will certainly be able do a lot of it.

Thanks again
Title: Re:A Defensive Strike
Post by: macguba on 11 Jun 2004, 20:28:05
I've now read the rest of the thread (I avoid doing so before playing so as not to spoil any surprises) and have a couple of quick observations:

You just can't get an ofp mission over about 500k - it's all text files really.   You need big pics or sound.

The distance from the DZ to the first base is fine.   A fraction shorter would be nice, but you need a good landing ground and because of the open hillside its not that far till you are in sight of the base.   I never saw or found or got shot at by soldiers behind me at the first base, though it did happen at the junction.

Screenshot for the the overview pic is not a requirment:  you can have anything you like.   ofpec reviewers will mark you down for not having a pic at all, but non-screenies, as long as they are good and relevant (which this is) will probably get you a small bonus.    I like it anyway.  

Only just discovered the readme.   A cogent summary of the stuff about the radio channels should be in the Briefing.

I noticed and enjoyed the burn script.    The scuds smoked for ages.
Title: Re:A Defensive Strike
Post by: THobson on 11 Jun 2004, 20:33:40
GRK,

The smoke script is a modified version of the Script BSmoke that has been posted by Babylon.  All I did was change it so that there was a three phase burn:
1. Flames, Embers and Smoke
2. Less Embers and less Smoke, no flame
3. Even less Smoke and no embers or flame.
Each phase being of random duration

All best seen without NVGoggles

I even put an acknowledgement to Babylon in my readme file.!

On the number of kills - not really something I looked at.  The second base is reinforced by two Urals each bringing an infantry squad.  So with two well placed LAWs you really can notch up the kills.  It is really three quite heavy assaults - I will take macguba's comments about making the second one easier.  Also remember macguba was on his own, he lost his team and all of Bravo so he had to do all the fighting.  He also pretty much wiped out the second base - I pull Bravo out once the SCUDs are dead and there is still a lot of fight in the base at that time.

So, anyway - a lot of work still to do.
Title: Re:A Defensive Strike
Post by: THobson on 11 Jun 2004, 20:37:45
macguba,

The scuds have a special burn script that burns and burns until the closing scene triggers them to end (randomly - it is never the same twice)

On the size for the file:  It was ~700k with the picture all the sounds (none of my own anyway) and as soon as I converted the opening scene into an intro it became more like 3Mbt!
Title: Re:A Defensive Strike
Post by: Dubieman on 11 Jun 2004, 22:18:35
Maybe I should have gotten to the readme. ::)

Anyways Macguba's just showing off his skills takin on the whole red army alone. Good job mate.:thumbsup:

Anyways the burn script adds to the mission, a little bit of eye candy.

I bet the mission is near completion, the difficulty seems about right, and I've played some tough missions. Yours is one that takes time to do, not a quickie, just solid assaulting in the night.

I'll stop rambling...
Title: Re:A Defensive Strike
Post by: THobson on 13 Jun 2004, 16:27:25
OK.  I have taken on board everything macguba said and I have implemented most of it - plus some other stuff.  I think I have dealt with the headless chickens syndrome, but what I have not yet done is to get the Russian groups to join together as they take casualties.  To be honest I am sure how to do that in a simple way.

The file size is now down to a more manageable 240Kbts, but I now have a new problem.  In the Briefing when you click on the ‘Group' tab you now get a blank page!  Any ideas anyone?

I am now going to watch the football and then I will be away on business for a week, so please try it and please let me know what you think - but I will not be able to do anything with your comments until next weekend.
Title: Re:A Defensive Strike
Post by: THobson on 13 Jun 2004, 23:41:40
13 June.  I have had a few problems uploading the new file.  If you downloaded before about 23:20 British Summer Time (22:20 GMT) on 13 June then please download again.  Sorry.
Title: Re:A Defensive Strike
Post by: Dubieman on 14 Jun 2004, 01:22:45
I think groups only shows up in the single player mode, not in editing or testing with the editor. Not sure though.
Title: Re:A Defensive Strike
Post by: macguba on 14 Jun 2004, 11:58:37
I've seen this a few times in user missions.  I've no idea what causes it.   Don't think it makes any difference whether you're the Editor or Single Missions.

Check the init lines of the player's group.   Also check the grouping and synchronisation of the group to triggers etc.   I have a feeling it's a game bug related to join waypoints or commands or something like that.
Title: Re:A Defensive Strike
Post by: THobson on 15 Jun 2004, 03:58:36
I thought it might have something to do with the fact that the 'Notes' in the briefing run to several pages (In thesame way that if the Plan runs to several pages then it screws up the objectives.

It could be that I made this mission not knowing how large a team I needed so although the team is now 4 there are five others that have their condition for existing set to false.  I will check this when I get home
Title: Re:A Defensive Strike
Post by: Dubieman on 15 Jun 2004, 04:01:45
Yeah my briefing got too large and everything messed up so I went through it twice and learned HTML and put in hyperlinks and fixed all my messy crap.

I'm not sure if you want to put hyperlinks into your notes. :-\
Title: Re:A Defensive Strike
Post by: macguba on 15 Jun 2004, 11:10:15
You might be right about the long notes section.   It's worth using links to separate pages.   It's very easy - one of snYpir's tutes covers it and (as ever) there is a working example in the Tutorial Mission.   I don't think it matters if the links come from Plan, Notes, or a specific index page linked from one of those two.
Title: Re:A Defensive Strike
Post by: THobson on 15 Jun 2004, 23:14:06
Thanks.  I will look at it when I get home at the weekend.  


I have also had some ideas about improving the radio chatter with Bravo, and also I have now found that the chopper has changed its behaviour at the end so I have some more work to do on the final scene.  Previously the chopper would just hangaround for a while and then slowly descend.  Now it just gets straight down - and that has screwed up some of the timing.  I will script it tighter so that it will always do what I want it to.


Bye the way what is the reference to reply 56?
Title: Re:A Defensive Strike
Post by: macguba on 15 Jun 2004, 23:42:22
Click on the link in my sig line to get to the thread ... look towards the end and you will find the attachment I attached.   The first couple of posts in the thread explain what it's all about.
Title: Re:A Defensive Strike
Post by: THobson on 16 Jun 2004, 12:25:23
Thanks.  I am going to bebusy whenI get home on Saturday.
Title: Re:A Defensive Strike
Post by: THobson on 20 Jun 2004, 23:23:21
20 June: I posted a revised version.  I will leave it for a while, try it again and then submit it as a completed mission if all is well.  Then I will be able to have a look at some of the beta missions put here by others.

It is still a very long mission  but I really don't want to take anything away from it.  You certainly feel like you have achieved somethign when you get to the end.  I may make it  bit easier though, poor old Bravo squad keeps getting wiped out.

For a completely different way to play the mission have a look at the DoNotReadMe file
Title: Re:A Defensive Strike
Post by: MuSe on 21 Jun 2004, 14:28:07
I havent done any beta testing b4 cause my job is making missions but this sounds quite good (hope there's no time limit) so i will test it 2nite and get back to you.  ;)
Title: Re:A Defensive Strike
Post by: THobson on 21 Jun 2004, 16:08:47
No time limit.  I was planning to leave it a week and then play it again before submitting it for review, but if someone is looking at it I will wait.  I keep making small changes and at some  point I will just have to call a halt and move on.  I just want to make sure everything works as I want it to before I do that.  I find I usually play it in the same way, what is helpful about this beta testing is that other people do it differently and can find things I had not noticed.

When you say making missions is your job - do you get paid for it?

I am thinking of removing the M21s (as well as maybe all the others) from the weapons available in the briefing.   The result would look lazy, but frankly would a Special Ops mission involve all those noisy weapons?

If you are testing it tonight I take it you are either not English or you have no interest in football.
Title: Re:A Defensive Strike
Post by: Dubieman on 21 Jun 2004, 18:37:11
Thobson leave the other weapons in, its always a plus even if they arent good for the mission. One thing I've seen alot of is mission reviewers going, briefing good but no weapon selection and I'd like some choices....

Leave it in, maybe add UZIs? :P
Title: Re:A Defensive Strike
Post by: THobson on 26 Jun 2004, 07:20:22
GRK: OK I will leave them in even though it does not feel right.
MuSe:  The version you have is one where Bravo attack the base in Stealth mode.  It works but they take an age.  I will be changing that in a version I will be updataing this weekend.
Title: Re:A Defensive Strike
Post by: MuSe on 28 Jun 2004, 14:27:15
This is after the first version

Ok where to start.........

My loadout

Me: MP5SD w/ x4 mags, Glock w/ x4 mags, 3x satchels ,binocs and NVG.
Soldier2: MP5SD w/ x4 mags, Glock w/ x4 mags, 3x satchels , NVG.
Soldier3: MP5SD w/ x4 mags, Glock w/ x4 mags, 3x satchels , NVG.
Soldier4: MP5SD w/ x4 mags, Glock w/ x4 mags, LAW launcher w/ x3 rounds , NVG.

My report:-

So my team land on ground and proceed towards our first objective. I notice a light about 500m away from the objective. It appears it was the light from a .50 cal MG (no idea why HMG's have super powerful lights attached to them) but they were no problem at all to deal with. So i stay alert for patrols in the area. No encounters made as i got closer to the enemy base. 300m away my team hold position and go prone. I then recon the area and carefully proceed towards the objective whilst using the vegetation and trees as cover and order my men to hold fire. My team setup a close observation point 100m outside the base and begin close area recon. i then order soldiers 2 and 3 to open fire after i neutralized a .50 cal gunner. soldier 4 remains on hold fire as he has the law launcher and attacking a bmp will compromise him. the bmps didnt spot us and the crew eventually got out of the bmp's and i dropped them. After about 20 minutes of lying prone in the vegetation and without being seen the base appears to be cleared. We are low on ammo but proceed into the base and encounter 2 troops of which i make quick work of. Objective complete! in comes a chopper with bravo infantry squad on board. They pick up a ural and head into position just 200m away from objective 2. I forget at this point to load up as i couldnt see the ammo crates. i expected them to be next to where the chopper landed. Anyways i head towards the junction and start dealing death to the russians there and my law soldier is free to engage any bmps he may see. Still we manage to clear the base without being seen but half way through our attack we need to rearm so i finally locate the ammo crate and load up. Bravos truck arrives and they get out then proceed to the lie up point outside the base where the scuds are. So i take my team and setup a recon point west of the scud base. I order all men to hold fire, leave 2 guys here and take 1 other with me and proceed to the north entrance to the base. I take out 2 troops and head from west to east along the northern wall of the base. I see a shilka on the beach and place a charge under it. I also place a charge next to the eastern wall to destroy and make an optional entry point to the base. Moments later i here a few bursts of M16 fire and the alarm is raised! the russians are on full alert and tanks, troops are everywhere and i'm still alone with my 1 soldier.a tank a tank crashes through the eastern wall 50m ahead of my position giving us an entry point without compromise. So i head back and disarm my charge. I order my man inside and go prone taking out any troops he sees. I move to the shilka on the south east side and place charge then shortcut through the base and place charge under the other shilka. i get my guy and we head south west away from the base and detonate the bombs. Shilkas are toast so i order bravo in and then regroup with my other 2 soldiers. Income bravo and start wasting ruskies whilst my guys keep and eye out for other troops. Still many remain lying prone near the scuds. My guys take'em out and place charges to destroy scuds. I light fires and call for bravos extraction, but bravo are acting like retards outside the base near some trees and their extraction chopper flies straight overhead towards central kolgujev and didnt return!!!! same happened with the chopper for my team but end is triggered here. Cant remember me or my guys getting shot at throughout the mission. No casualties on my team but unsure about bravo. They did take casualties but don't know how many. Quite a few appeared to be alive when i seen them. 8 or 9 i think.

Ideas for improvement:

Well it was a great challenge so dont reduce troop numbers. I think bravo should move around on foot as them taking the ural with them wasnt very realistic. Bravo should take crate with them and place it at their position just outside the junction. I think extraction should be proper too! i mean like with waypoints so you CAN cover bravos extraction and the same for yourself and on the end cutscene it should start with camera showing the scud base and then see trucks coming down the north road and into the base with russian troops getting out to observe the aftermath of the nightlong fun we had.

Overall:

Very tough (which is a good thing), cool ideas and not adivsed trying to play with unsilenced weapons. maybe add the uzi sd from resistance.

stats:

 score (23700) 8 hours 56 mins (realisticly 4 hours it took me)

t80
2x shilka
3x officer (Night Vis equip)
2x officer
spetz natz (bizon)
spetz natz
sniper
bmp
6x rpg soldier
3x aa soldier
5x machine gunner
2x grenadier
6x scud
17x crew
31x soldier

finaly:

phew for writing everything i've just wrote.......
Title: Re:A Defensive Strike
Post by: THobson on 28 Jun 2004, 17:51:15
That really is totally comprehensive thank you.

Sorry about Bravo.  I had set them to COMBAT to try and help reduce their casualty rate - but they do take and age to get in and out of the base when I do that and do seem to get stuck in the trees outside the base.  In the next version I have changed it so they are AWARE when attacking and when leaving the base - they are a lot faster, even if there are fewer of them by the end!  The extraction is correctly waypointed, but I have noticed that if Bravo's chopper arrives before any of them are at the GET IN waypoint the chopper ignores the Invisible H and heads for some flat ground in the middle of the island.  When Bravo eventually sort themselves out they head there on foot and board the chopper fine.  To fix this I will have the chopper wait offshore until Bravo are at the correct waypoint.  I need to look at why your chopper did the same, it shouldn't have

The 8 hours duration is in part because of the time acceleration in the final cut scene.  I tried setting the end trigger before starting the time acceleration but that does not work.

I was thinking of making the following changes:
Main base - harder (T72s instead of BMPs and more of them etc.);
Road junction - a lot easier (fewer soldiers, no BMPs) BUT if they are not dealt with quickly Russian survivors head for the main base (by UAZ) and if they get there the main base goes on alert.  It feels like this would be more realistic than having a pitched battle just outside the main base and no one in the base noticing.

Any thoughts on this?

Anyway thanks again for the comments and the suggestions I am really grateful.

Bye the way, I really like having Bravo travel in the ural (and if you only knew how much time I spent making sure it works properly you would be amazed) so I will probably keep that in.
Title: Re:A Defensive Strike
Post by: macguba on 28 Jun 2004, 18:14:51
Quote
Road junction - a lot easier (fewer soldiers, no BMPs) BUT if they are not dealt with quickly Russian survivors head for the main base (by UAZ) and if they get there the main base goes on alert.  It feels like this would be more realistic than having a pitched battle just outside the main base and no one in the base noticing.

I think that's a good idea.     Don't make the main base any harder though, it's hard enough already.    There is a great temptation in mission building to add more and more enemy units and make things harder, and you need to counter it from time to time with a session of taking things out and making it easier.   I've played a lot of missions that were too hard to be fun:  I've played very, very few that were too easy.

Keep Bravo in the Ural.    Walking might well have been better but now its done you might as well keep it.   I can feel how long you spent making it work.
Title: Re:A Defensive Strike
Post by: THobson on 28 Jun 2004, 22:20:58
macguba:  I will certainly change the road junction - it just feels right.  Thank you for the idea.

I have also made (not yet uploaded) other changes including yours to consolidate the groups in the first base as they take casualties and get the last few survivors to run away.  In part I was forced into this by some strange behaviour.  I would find that the base was not captured but I could not find any Russians.  As a last resort I LAWed the Hospital tent and discovered a single Russian in there.  That should not happen now.  I will apply a similar process to the road junction

On whether the main base should be harder I clearly have a design decision to make.  When you played it you had to deal with the following armour in or around the main base: 1xT80; 2xT72; 4x BMP and 4x Shilka.  In my current working version I now have: 1x T80; 6x T72; 1x BMP and 3x Shilka.  The same number of units just a bit more powerful.  There is structure and logic to where they are placed and when they arrive so it is not necessary to deal with them all at once.  Even so, as a straight ‘fight' which is the way all beta testers have approached it so far I think it will be very difficult.  But there is another way.  This ‘other way' feels to me to be eminently realistic.  


**** DELETED AS IT IS A BIT OF A SPOILER ****



What do you all think?  Leave it as it is?  Put something in the briefing to give some clues?  

One of the things about the OF Resistance campaign that I really liked was that if the missions are approached in the wrong way they could be very difficult, but if they are approached the right way they could be quite easy.  I liked the need to think about what I was doing.

As an aside - I must be making some progress, the early posts on this mission were all about the begining.  Now they are mostly about the end.

As another aside: does anyone know how to put in a de-brief for the 'Loose' end game (snYpir's tutorial seems to imply it is not possible)?  I am already using 6 different de-briefs, one for each combination of (SCUDs dead, SCUDs not dead) and (Bravo wiped out, Bravo survivied but you left them on ths island, Bravo survivied and you got them off the island before you left)

Title: Re:A Defensive Strike
Post by: macguba on 29 Jun 2004, 00:09:27
There is no debrief text for the Loose ending.    As with anything I wouldn't like to guarantee that it can't be done but it has been tried without success.

The "last few loons" is often a real problem as you've discovered.   Good missions always deal with it.

There is an aesthetic point to your possible new armour configuration:   I would be tempted to bin the remaining BMP and replace a lot of the infantry with tank crews.    With those vehicles this must be a tank base, right?   So lots of crew, repair and fuel trucks and so on.    Any "infantry" groups will be support soldiers with few machine guns and laws.    If you wanted to beef things upa  little you could have a spetz natz camp in one corner of the base.

There is absolutely nothing fundamentally wrong with what you are proposing.   However, what you are proposing is a bit more of a "puzzle" mission.   By that I mean one that has a "right" way to win it, rather than leaving it entirely up to the player.  Both approaches ("puzzle" and "open") are entirely valid, but if you're taking the puzzle route you must, as with any puzzle, leave clues.    

These clues need to be obvious, though not necessarily, heavy handed.     Mines in particular are rarely handled well:  usually you either get direct instructions to lay a minefield ina particular place, which is just tedious, or you get a bunch of mines and no clear idea of where to put them and the enemy tanks just drive round them.     In this case, for example, you could tell the player that after the roadblock is cleared Bravo will lay mines on the northern (or is it southern, I can't remember which way round it is) approach to the base.     If you provide plenty of mines and include an engineer in your squad then the player should figure out that mines elsewhere are a clever idea.   A few bits of fencing (to channel the tanks) might provide a clue as to where to put them.

For the entrances, put an extra guard on all the other entrances and maybe take one away from the easy one:  it has to be reasonably obvious on a brief close target recce (CTR) that this entrance is different.   It is a very large base and in reality the CTR for a special forces attack would take several nights:  here nobody is going to spend more than ten minutes on it and, given that the game is supposed to be fun, they shouldn't have to.   However, those that do spend this time should be rewarded for it.

Think a moment about the different phases that the player will go through in this mission.     Land-gather squad-move to first base-recce- .... -approach big base-recce-move round to other side-recce-approach quite entrance-enter-hide inside- ... etc    The more stages you have, the easier each one must be to make the mission fun.    Make the ones you want to be tough, tough, and the others easy.   If the player is going to place lots of satchels, where is he going to get them from?

Definitely don't forget about this whole plan.     In general the more complex a mission is the more fun.   I don't mean complex-looking in the missin editor:  as I've said elsewhere one well placed loon can be a lot better than 20 bad ones.   It's just finding the right place to put that loon.    You can easily spend a couple of  hours on placing one guard.    For the player, the need to think about what you are doing is essential for a good mission.

If you're worried about difficulty downgrade the T80 to a T72.   It takes 3 laws or 1CG to take out a T72, or in other words as much as you can carry.    A T80 takes 4 laws or 2 CGs, which is in general more than you can carry.   That makes the T80 a much more formidable obstacle.     Alternatively, upgrade a couple of the T72s:  that means that the only possible way to success is stealth and endless satchels all going off at once.

As always, the check is an imaginary reality.   Who is based in this base?   If you were base commander, what would you do?  
Title: Re:A Defensive Strike
Post by: THobson on 30 Jun 2004, 08:06:26
Thank you that is very helpful.  

One of the things I like about OF is its non-linearity.  I would be going against that if this mission only had one 'right way' to do it.  I plan to make it so that it can be completed without using mines or satchel charges, but to retain the option of doing it that way as well.  Work is taking alot of time at the moment so it will probably be next weekend before I would have anything on that.
Title: Re:A Defensive Strike
Post by: MuSe on 01 Jul 2004, 15:48:24
whens the next version coming out? bring'em on! :P
Title: Re:A Defensive Strike
Post by: THobson on 02 Jul 2004, 07:49:35
This weekend - I just need to check:
- Is the road junction now too easy
- Does my method of consolidating Russian groups as they get smaller produce a realistic effect.
- have I fixed the problem of Bravo's chopper landing in the middle of the island if Bravo is not ready for it
- have I prevented the problem with the final cut scene that you experienced.  I have experienced it but cannot cause it to repeat.  I have scripted the final scene so this should not matter - I just need to test it.  

I know you had a suggestion for the final cutscene.  Currently I have and Intro that goes: zoom in; guard; SCUDs; Chopper.  The final cutscene goes: Chopper; SCUDs; guard; zoom out.   The palindromic symmetry appeals to me so I would like to get it to work.

I will be busy tonight!
Title: Re:A Defensive Strike
Post by: THobson on 03 Jul 2004, 09:47:25
OK. Here it is.  I have tested everything, in parts.  I have not yet had a complete run through.

What I am particularly interested in is:

- the behaviour of the Russian infantry at each of the three locations (first base, road junction and main base).  Is it realistic?

- is the road junction an improvement?

- the behaviour of Bravo as it attacks and then disengages from the main base

- the behaviour of Delta (Bravo's chopper) as it comes in to pick them up.

- the final cutscene (especially the behaviour of Charlie (your chopper))

- any comments on the six different de-briefings?

- general comments (as ever)


The Readme file as also been updated.

Failing any adverse comments and assuming I don't find anything when I do a complete run through I plan to submit this version in about a week from now.


Thanks.
Title: Re:A Defensive Strike
Post by: macguba on 03 Jul 2004, 11:22:03
OK, second run through.   I'm going to find a lot of things because we're going to jack this mission up a level by getting a lot of details right.    More work for you I'm afraid, if you want it.   8)


Overview

Starting with really petty stuff...    ;D  

All readmes are named readme, which is a nightmare - they are forever trying to copy on top of each other and you never know what its a readme for.   Call it DefensiveReadMe or something.

Now, the mission name.   I think you should change it for two reasons:  firstly, misson names starting with the letter A slot into a funny place in the single missions menu, making them hard to find.     Not a big deal and not your fault.    Secondly, and more importantly, anything starting with a vowel tends to sound a bit wishy-washy.    Much better to start with a nice hard B, D, K, T or something like that.    A Defensive Strike?   What, is that our one?   Its just a A strike, yeah?  Well, doesn't sount that important, lets leave it till tomorrow.

Defensive Strike
Toast the Scuds
Pre-emptive Strike
Scud Killer

well none of those are great but I hope you see what I'm getting at.


Intro

May 10 eh?  Bloodiest date in warfare.   Change it to the 11th at least.    It's too quiet.   No music is fine, but this is a busy base.   We need a wheeled vehicles moving in the forground for sound, and them plus a soldier or two walking for movement.

I don't like that you zoom time and the camera at the same time.   Get the camera into position above the base, then zoom the time.    While time is zooming there should be no moving vehicles about, since they still move at normal pace.    Tank tracks make an annoying whine:  its frightening if you're hiding in the remains of a village but just annoying in an overhead shot in an intro.

(Btw this review is going to sound even more negative than beta reviews usually do, but don't panic.  I only do this level of detail on stuff thats good in the first place.

Let's have some script on the screen during the intro:  your name, the mission name, that sort of thing.     Don't use normal script, use something fancy from xenofane's font/text tutorial.    It looks complex but its actually easy, just a little tedious.

At the opening, hold the camera still for a few seconds in the woods, with lots of birds, so that we can get a feel for where we are.   (Try starting the camera right back int he woods so that you can't see the base, dunno if it will work.)   Then the zoom in and the sounds of the birds are replaced with vehicles and perhaps some men shouting in the background.


Briefing

There are too many Objectives and not enough explanation.  Why do we have to take out the preliminary objectives?   A link to another page with a bit of explanation is neeed.  (For example, the troops there will come and attack you in the rear if you try to take out the main base first:  but if you attack the secondary base the troops in the main base can't come after you because they have to stay to guard the scuds, except you have to say it much better than that!)

Combine the objectives:   prelim base and junction; scuds; AA (which needs a link); cover Bravo and escape.    The explanation page should mention that you fail if any of Bravo are left behind.

Ah right, I've seen what you've done.   OK well you've covered most of that, we just need to work on the layout.   On the Plan page, say that there are detailed orders on the Notes page.    Make the Notes page an index, with links to other pages.   Split the info up a little, to make it easier to take in, something like:-

Situation and background
Enemy
Own forces
Communications
Alpha squad orders

At the moment its all mixed up so, for example, in the heat of battle its hard to find the section on radio calls.    Each supplementary page should be a maximum of one page.

Gear:  I don't like to see AI with handguns, they tend to use them at the wrong time.    And which isn't it a silenced GlockS, since we have HKs?    In gear selection you have 4 binocs, there should be only 3.    The weapons loadouts aren't great, it's not really clear who is doing what.   I would suggest HKs for everybody and then:-

1 LAW
1 CG
3 satchels
3 mines

Or alternatively give everybody a LAW with two missiles and a satchel.    Definitely don't give somebody all mags, they should have some hand grenades and a satchel at least.   (Yes I know you meant him to be a walking ammo crate.)

Group doesn't show up, that happens sometimes but I don't know why.

On the map, move the word's Bravo's attack to the left of the arrow:  that will allow you to put the words Shika Screen in their place, which is a better place for them.    The Shilka stuff should be in red.  Try oval hatchings rather than rectangular, may or may not be better.   I'd put drop zone and evac in blue (definitely the same colour, whichever one you choose) and bravo's two markers in green.


Mission

Consider a fade in from black to cover the chopper getting started.  Drop went fine, moved SE toward the wood.   As we went south down the edge of my wood my loons spotted a patrol and dropped a couple of them:  I keep schtum as I had my trusty M21.  The others ran off, firing flares.    Keep going, got into a position where I could see the M2 gunner at the eastern gate, dropped him and the others and keep shooting.   One of my loons took out a BMP that came to look for use.   A couple of guards were running straight towards me which made them easy targets.

After a bit we started to move, but immediately spotted a patrol coming in from the northwest, presumably an outpatrol that had been vectored onto us.   Dropped it.   Also another BMP that appeared near the base.  

Moved intowards the base.  Looked deserted by somebody was still firing flares ... felt a bit like that bit in Beau Geste.

Ah, there he is.   Dropped a few more, moved it, repeat a couple of times.   Retry.   Called chopper:  exchanged radio messages.   Got message saying approaching base, but I couldn't see the chopper - say approaching base from south or whatever it is, so you know where in the sky to look for him   WTF?   Ah, the dust script!  He's right above me, which is why I can't see him.     If the "you've done a good job here" message is from Bravo (I missed it) leave it till theyare on the ground.    Good messages, make the space before OK see you there a bit shorter.  Rearmed (3 of us with laws and one with satchels) and got a message saying Bravo were ready.

I'd say this whole base attack is fine now.    The defence seemed more organised.    There were no more headless chickens than you normally get.    You could add an alarm sound that goes off after 30s ... also perhaps a forest of flares at the same time.


gotta go now, more later



/more
Title: Re:A Defensive Strike
Post by: THobson on 03 Jul 2004, 11:43:22
Strewth...and you haven't even started the mission!!  Seriously, I do appreciate your comments.  Keep them coming,  I will work on all them.

When I started this I didn't even know how to do an intro or centre a picture in the overview - and that was only a month ago.

I don't know why I don't get the Group either.

I was thinking about getting some sound files for all the radio chatter, but that is another completely new area for me.

It is now Saturday evening.
You are going a lot faster than I can keep up.  I now have an improved intro, and it will be better when I get some text titles in.  Just letting you know I am working on this.
Title: Re:A Defensive Strike
Post by: macguba on 03 Jul 2004, 21:00:38
 ;D There's no rush.

Another minor point:  don't describe Bravo as "infantry":  they should be "commandos" or "paras" or something.  Regular infantry don't do stuff like this.

After much thought I've decided that you should definitely keep Bravo's truck move in.   I know there was some debate about it and aesthetically it's not very pleased.  (And I know you put a lot of  work into it.)    However, it has two advantages: it allows the player to drive up to Bravo's position without worry, which speeds the game up; and IIRC you get another ammo dump.   So keep it with a clear conscience.

Drove to Bravo in a UAZ (comments on the base layout later) ran through the woods and approached the VCP from the north.     Far fewer loons about which is good.   First attempt I got myself shot through rank stupidity.  Second attempt got most of them but a UAZ with two loons in in drove off.   My chaps didn't shoot at it and my magazine was almost empty so they got away.    I presume the put the Base into some state of alert:  it should perhaps not be full alert.   Anyway, I decided to go back to a savegame because I want to see the base unalerted.

It's not clear whether shooting an M2 gunner puts this lot on alert - it should do.    (Shooting a roving patrol probably shouldn't  unless the sentries hear the shot or whatever.)

While we're doing this a lorry or UAZ or something should come up the road and get trashed by Bravo.    Just to prove they were worthwhile.

There is a BMP patrolling to the north of the VCP which I'm not too keen on at this stage.    I haven't seen it close up so I'm not sure what its doing but it shouldn't be patrolling the road behind a roadblock.     If you really want it there maybe it could come from the base to the roadblock and drop some loons off, picking up others to offset them:  a guard change.

Next attempt, cleared the place.   There was a UAZ zapped by one of my loons LAW, but not sure where it had come from or was going.     It was a good 100m to the southeast.

We need to make some changes to this base.  (As always when I'm beta testing, you are of course at liberty to ignore anything I say.   However, you should never bin any beta testers comments without thought.   There is usually something in them, even if you don't agree or if they are ultimately wrong.)    

There should not be a gap in the sandbags on the south side, there is no road there.   The south wall should be much nearer the road - the whole area feels a little too big.    (Cut and paste sandbad sections to avoid too much re-placement.)  There should be a total of 4 M2s:  one for each road and one facing south.     Just inside the wall beside each entrance (on the other side of the road from the M2) there should be an open tent, so that guards can check paperwork etc out of the rain.    (Oops, just found the central one ....  put it on the other side of the road, in the corner between two roads.)   There are too many ammo crates:  one of each is sufficient in a place like this.   There should be one area for ammo/fuel/junk and one for accomodation/hospital.    (You don't sleep with ammo crates right outside the tent.)    If you like you can make the officer's tent separate with a table outside.     There should be space for one or two lorries/UAZs, even if they are not there at present.

Talking of the UAZ, I'm not sure of the placement but I suspect its too hard.   It must start within the walls and must leave by the exit facing the main base - otherwise its "unfair".       Ah ha, found second UAZ outside the fence.    No good.   Make the exit wider if needs be.    

Back to the retry to tell Bravo.  The radio option needs a space after the :.    Oh I see, the BMP is outside the Base!   Shit shit shit, the junction is within sightof the base, shit, right.    We need a response from the base when the junction is attacked - the Shilka crew could see and hear the firefight.   Yes I know if they had really heard it they would have buttoned up and they haven't so in the game they haven't heard, but for a good mission we have to recognise things like line of sight.

It needn't be much:    a UAZ or a Ural with a few infantry triggered when the guards have taken a few casualties.    They'll come down with lights blazing so they shouldn't be any trouble.  (Pleased to note there were fewer loons around the junction than before ... here we have a classic case of fewer guards but a slightly more interesting and difficult objective.)

Bravo appear, nice radio chat and they disembark without trouble.  Try and get the ammo crates nearer to the truck they were under the trees and it took a minute to find.    Alternatively, they could just leave the ammo in the truck.

I don't know Bravo's exact lying up point - there should be a marker.    The radio message says "prepare to attack" but I don't know what that really means.   Will they actually attack when I use it or just move up a bit?

Anyway, I'm off for a CTR.    Actually I think I'll take a break and look at all this in the mission editor.

First base.   This base is an awful, desolate place, I've always thought.    Would never want to be posted here.    You've left it quite bare which is good (for lag reasons) and fine, but we can make more with what we've got.    Remove one of the fires.    The other is a focal point for the loons:  they are around it and maybe one or two of the patrols visit it on their way past.      Delete one UAZ and move the others into the open by the east fence:  perhaps there should be a lorry there too.      

The fancy ammo crates are in the wrong place:  you're probably trying to reward theplayer for going round there, which is good in principle.  However, we know the base is clear because of the retry and Bravo getting in safely and you can't spend your life going round behind buildings in the hope of finding a bizon.    

You've got spetznatz here so lets make the isolated building in the northwest their home.      One ammo crate of each kind (with additions of course) is placed here:  the BMP loiters somewhere else.   SN units start around here.    No fire.  Maybe some pallets with a couple of NVGs on the ground (use weaponholders) to indicate that this is SN territory and that the ammo crates - which may be discrete but not hidden - might have goodies.

The infantry hang out in the opposite corner.   Fire, vehicles, hospital, etc.   Nothing in between - this base is half forgotton don't forget.   Maybe a couple of vehicle wrecks.      (Taking away a fire and some excess ammo crates means you can add back one or two things.   If you start to run into lag problems lose some manned M2s, you've got plenty in the mission and these lights probably take up plenty of CPU time.)   Always keep thinking:  I'm the base commander (a total second rater in charge of a dump like this) what would I do?    I'm a grunt in this base, what would I do?

Keep your zero area triggers out of the action and not on top of units - it reduces the chance of you making a mistake and makes life easier for anybody trying to understand the mission.    (Not that I'm going to take it to pieces.)

Found some ammocrates in the south on the mainland.  Bad idea, you just never know where the player is going to go.   Always put stuff that's going to be setPossed on an outlying island where there is no chance of the player screwing things up accidentally.

There are too many soldiers with no waypoints.   These loons are just headless chicken fodder.    Give them Hold (safe) to start, then switch them into Join (aware) and Hold or Something when the shooting starts.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with using an invisible H as the ammo point marker, but it is more usual (and more elegant) to use a gamelogic or an invisible marker.    

At the junction they know nothing of the attack on the first base, so that main group should be in safe round a fire till west is detected in the area.    Then they can go to guard.   I would say that they may be getting to the UAZ a little early.

I'm getting tired now... at the main base easy entrance, place one guard just inside the entrance.    Give him a hold waypoint and in it make him sit down.    When the balloon goes up he can run off and join somebody but its obvious enough that that's the "unguarded" entrance - you don't need to leave it totally unguarded.     I did have one quick sneak into the base and I did desperately want that silenced glock.  I know I took the m21 but this is a good chance to make the sidearm actually contribute something to the mission - usually they don't.

I haven't followed any groups through in detail but there seem to be a lot of waypoints ... check through and see if you really need them all.

That's enough for now, hope its been helpful.   Might try and do some more tomorrow but I don't know if I can face it.   ;D   Most of my comments on the first two bases might apply to the main one as well.
Title: Re:A Defensive Strike
Post by: THobson on 04 Jul 2004, 09:40:27
Thanks a lot, as I said I really appreciate the comments.  I thought this mission was finished weeks ago, but it is now so much better.

Just a few comments and questions, in the same order as your posts above:

The Intro is now much improved (not up loaded yet), I now do a separate camera zoom and time zoom.  I am not convinced yet, but it is growing on me.

I didn't know about GlockS.  They now have them.

I am working on the briefing

I have tried the fade in from black at the start of the mission.  There must be something I don't know.  I tried running this script using a trigger that activates zeros seconds after the mission starts:
titleText ["", "BLACK OUT",0]
~4
titleText ["", "BLACK IN",8]
~10
exit
But it only kicks in after the start of the mission not immediately at the start.  What am I missing (don't under estimate my ignorance of how OF works)?

In the first base did you get a sidechat message from Alpha leader (you) that "They are running away" ?  This should happen as the last 4 loons make their exit from the area around the base.  You didn't mention it so I wonder if it is working.  It did when I first tested it.

The message "you have done a tidy job here" really is meant to be from Bravo, when they say it on the ground it gets lost in all their other chatter, I thought I would have them say it when they saw it from the air.  I will have another look at this.

You suggested a possible alarm sound at Base1.  I do have a Russian shout "Alarm" as they go on alert.  I didn't think such a dump would have anything as sophisticated as an electronic alarm.  Again I will have another look at this.

I have now started calling Bravo "paras".  I didn't before because it then raises the question as to why they did not drop in the way Alpha does.  Maybe something in the briefing about not enough space clear of trees for a mass drop.

I originally used the truck because of the long distance involved, but now it has been mentioned I do feel it is unrealistic.  Maybe something in the briefing about recent partisan attacks causing the Russians to be nervous about venturing out of their bases during darkness.  This briefing will become a novel if I am not careful.

The Russians are nervous and very protective of their SCUDs.  If any survivor from the road junction gets to the main base it does go on full alert.

In Base1, the road junction and the main base - killing any single Russian will put the relevant location on alert - just not immediately.  Some soldiers are not missed for several minutes, others only take seconds, but in all cases there is a minumum reaction time.  So yes killing the M2 gunner will cause the location where it is to go on alert.  This is also a cascade.  When the main base goes on alert so does the road junction (after a delay), similarly for Base1 when the road junction goes on alert.

The UAZ your guys zapped could only have been the guards from the junction escaping to the main base.  Not sure why it was southeast of you though.

On the radio instructions and spaces after the ":".  There is only so much space allowed for radio menu text after which it is truncated.  I played with the words for quite some time so I could indicate who the instruction was for and what it was.  I will have another look.

The UAZ used for the escape is outside the base to the east, next to the one you found.  I even used some tents to hide it.  I suppose it is unfair but I was conscious of the numbers of soldiers I had removed and didn't want to make it too easy.  I will work on the whole layout of the base, including this.

Now I have a problem.  How do I deal with detection of sound?  The road junction is indeed within sight of the main base and they are meant to be so nervous that any cause for concern will put them on alert.  When I clear the junction I use silenced weapons and the guards usually don't get a shot off.  In that situation I have no concerns at all about the main base being oblivious to what is happening.  But if they hear NATO weapons being fired the only logical response would be to on to alert and that would spoil the mission.  Perhaps I should only provide Warsaw Pact weapons to Alpha unless they are silenced - more in the briefing.  BTW I was relaying on the OF engine to workout whether the crew in the Shilka had a sufficient problem that they would 'turn in'.

The ammo crates were meant to be placed on a sand bank that was not reachable by foot.  I will look for somewhere else to put them.

In Base1 there are a lot of solders with no waypoints - but when the base goes on alerts they are each ordered to join one of three infantry groups.

I use the invisible H to get the chopper to land where I want and I place the ammo crate at an offset to this.

At the road junction I have one guy in the tent, two walking around the base, one sat by the fire and the rest should be standing by the fire long before Alpha gets there.  They head for the UAZ when they are down to four of them left.  I could delay this by adding a few more soldiers and get them to hang on until there are fewer of them.  Or just spread them out so they are harder to take out.  I will think about this.

On the unguarded entrance:  I did originally have a guard outside that it was just possible to sneak past.  If you are seen the base goes on alert and killing anybody will also put the base on alert, just not necessarily immediately.  This entrance is visited by two infantry patrols and the patrolling BMP so topping the guard and them not discovering it would be quite unrealistic.  Rather than have a time delay on the base alert after anyone is killed is there anyway I could have living guards raise the alarm when they see a dead one?  That way 'hide body' also becomes useful.  This is something I have thought about occasionally but I can never think of a tidy way to do it.  Your comments about using the GlockS in the base is an attractive one, but I would need to rethink the link between fatalities and the base going on alert.

Anyway, additional comments will always be welcome.  Any of your comments that I have not dealt with above are on the list to be worked, not ignored.
Title: Re:A Defensive Strike
Post by: macguba on 04 Jul 2004, 11:48:58

The Intro is now much improved (not up loaded yet), I now do a separate camera zoom and time zoom.  I am not convinced yet, but it is growing on me.

Play with a bit and see what you like ... it's not a big deal.

Quote
I didn't know about GlockS.  They now have them.

:thumbsup:

Quote
I have tried the fade in from black at the start of the mission.  There must be something I don't know.  I tried running this script using a trigger that activates zeros seconds after the mission starts:
titleText ["", "BLACK OUT",0]
~4
titleText ["", "BLACK IN",8]
~10
exit
But it only kicks in after the start of the mission not immediately at the start.  What am I missing (don't under estimate my ignorance of how OF works)?

At the start of a mission the game does units first, then triggers.    So triggers with "true" in the condition line don't fire until after the mission has started.  If you want something to happen immediately put it in init.sqs, or a script called from there or in the init line of a unit.

Quote
In the first base did you get a sidechat message from Alpha leader (you) that "They are running away" ?

No.   Pretty sure I didn't.   I only saw one who actually tried to run away and he was dropped.

Quote
The message "you have done a tidy job here" really is meant to be from Bravo, when they say it on the ground it gets lost in all their other chatter, I thought I would have them say it when they saw it from the air.  I will have another look at this.

Just make it from the chopper pilot instead.

Quote
You suggested a possible alarm sound at Base1.  I do have a Russian shout "Alarm" as they go on alert.  I didn't think such a dump would have anything as sophisticated as an electronic alarm.  Again I will have another look at this.

Good point, forget the alarm.

Quote
I have now started calling Bravo "paras".  I didn't before because it then raises the question as to why they did not drop in the way Alpha does.  Maybe something in the briefing about not enough space clear of trees for a mass drop.

Don't get bogged down in explanations, you could just say they are bringing in ammo.   Even calling them airborne infantry would do - just something to make them sound less ordinary.

Quote
The UAZ your guys zapped could only have been the guards from the junction escaping to the main base.  Not sure why it was southeast of you though.

They set off on a roundabout route ... I was lucky my no3 was alert and had a LAW.

Quote
The UAZ used for the escape is outside the base to the east, next to the one you found.  I even used some tents to hide it.  I suppose it is unfair but I was conscious of the numbers of soldiers I had removed and didn't want to make it too easy.  I will work on the whole layout of the base, including this.

It's right that the UAZs should be slightly hidden, but I do think they should be within the fence.     Don't worry about difficulty on this point:  difficulty can easily be adjusted by changing the size or quality of the group heading for the UAZs.

Quote
Now I have a problem.  How do I deal with detection of sound?  The road junction is indeed within sight of the main base and they are meant to be so nervous that any cause for concern will put them on alert.  When I clear the junction I use silenced weapons and the guards usually don't get a shot off.  In that situation I have no concerns at all about the main base being oblivious to what is happening.  But if they hear NATO weapons being fired the only logical response would be to on to alert and that would spoil the mission.  Perhaps I should only provide Warsaw Pact weapons to Alpha unless they are silenced - more in the briefing.  BTW I was relaying on the OF engine to workout whether the crew in the Shilka had a sufficient problem that they would 'turn in'.

Perhaps the solution is just a guard orientated towards the junction and, as you say, let the game sort it out.   Vehicle crews are a bit insensitive to things like that sometimes, you often need a foot soldier to do the detecting.

Quote
In Base1 there are a lot of solders with no waypoints - but when the base goes on alerts they are each ordered to join one of three infantry groups.

:thumbsup:   That's what I get for not studying the mission in sufficient detail ....


Quote
On the unguarded entrance:  I did originally have a guard outside that it was just possible to sneak past.  If you are seen the base goes on alert and killing anybody will also put the base on alert, just not necessarily immediately.  This entrance is visited by two infantry patrols and the patrolling BMP so topping the guard and them not discovering it would be quite unrealistic.  Rather than have a time delay on the base alert after anyone is killed is there anyway I could have living guards raise the alarm when they see a dead one?  That way 'hide body' also becomes useful.  This is something I have thought about occasionally but I can never think of a tidy way to do it.  Your comments about using the GlockS in the base is an attractive one, but I would need to rethink the link between fatalities and the base going on alert.

There are dead body detection scripts but they are messy.   I have heard tell that patrols respond to dead bodies automatically but I'm not convinced I've ever seen it happen.    Consider removing the "alarm on death" thing for some units:  obviously keep it for M2 gunners and the like.    If that entrance is so well patrolled - I must just have hit a lucky moment when there was nobody around.  

You could just have a trigger over the entrance which alerts the base if a patrol is present and the guard is dead.  After all, his missing body is as alarming as his dead one.

Title: Re:A Defensive Strike
Post by: THobson on 05 Jul 2004, 08:34:41
It is all progressing well.  The Intro now looks much better (great idea to have a peaceful start - thanks) it would be better still if I could control the drop shadows on the text.

I remember the other invisible H for the second ammo crate.  I now am using a Game Logic object.  Apart from identifying a location are these any other use?  They just seem like triggers without the trigger capability.

I still cannot get the mission to start by fade in from black.

I have not come across weaponholders before.

Apologies if some of these seem like newbie issues, to give some background:  I am ok as a programmer (I have been doing it for 30 years), but what I lack here is a knowledge of what is and what is not available in the OF ‘language'.  So things that I know about I can generally do quite well, but I can get stumped by not knowing some pretty basic stuff.  I know there is a lot of information on this site, sometimes it feels like too much, but there are only 24 hours a day and I still have a full time job.  The command reference guide from this site is my bible for commands, but there must be whole lists of allowed actions, explanations of things like Game Logic Objects etc. etc. that I have yet to find.  Most of what I have done here is by trial and error and by looking at how others have written their scripts.  Some of these scripts use constructs that are not referred to in the command reference guide so there must be some other documentation I have yet to find.

Still I will keep at it.
Title: Re:A Defensive Strike
Post by: macguba on 05 Jul 2004, 10:13:36
Lol its the same for all of us.    OFP mission creation is very much the "art of the possible" and finding out what's possible is not always easy.     There are over 800 tutes, scripts, faq items, etc on this site so simply knowing what's here is a huge job.

I pulled together a tute on gamelogics (which are very powerful although its not immediately obvious why) which is in the Ed Depot, I think its still in Pending.

For the blackin, try putting this in your init.sqs

titlecut ["","BLACK IN",3]

Weaponholders are handy.   You can't place a weapon on the ground directly from the mission editor:  a weapon is not an object.    In order to have a weapon lying around that they player can pick up you need to create a weaponholder first.    Think of a WH as an invisible ammo crate.    They are slightly funny things (as many OFP objects are) and here is some working code copied and pasted from one of my init.sqss


; add a weapon holder at the civvy cutscene
weaponH1 = "weaponHolder" createVehicle getMarkerPos "WH"
weaponH1 addMagazineCargo ["kozliceball", 4]
weaponH1 addMagazineCargo ["kozliceshell", 4]
weaponH1 addWeaponCargo ["kozlice", 1]
weaponH1 setPos getMarkerPos "WH"
weaponH1 setDir 70

I can't remember why (or even if) you have to move it to the place where its already supposed to be.   ;D  

I have a feeling that some of the fancy script constructs are not well documented:  I would go so far as to suggest that its possible that some of them were not designed into ofp scripting language, they just happen to work.    Feel free to post about them on the Advanced board and ask for more info.
Title: Re:A Defensive Strike
Post by: THobson on 05 Jul 2004, 20:13:25
Well what do you know!!

BLACK IN,4  in the Init.sqs file works.  I was trying BLACK OUT,0 in the Init file and triggering a BLACK IN in the mission itself.  It seemed logical enough at the time.  In fact it still seems logical - except it doesn't work!

Thanks yet again.

Good tutorial on Game Logic by the way
Title: Re:A Defensive Strike
Post by: THobson on 06 Jul 2004, 22:42:46
Current status (none of it uploaded yet) - all thanks to macguba:
Intro greatly improved
Base1 and Road Junction improved.

Base1 - I have lost the Spetz Natz.  There are now a few soldiers walking about, one infantry squad lazing about near the fire and one infantry squad resting in the barracks (they arrive individually at the barracks entrance some time after the base goes on alert).

Still to do:
- look at the main base
- set the weapon options and ammo crates so that the only noisy weapons available to Alpha before the final assault are Warsaw Pack weapons.  There is logic to this but are there any strong feelings to the contrary?
- look at the points I listed on my posting 9:47 on 3 July.  I do need to have several people look at the arrival of the helicopters at the end of the mission.  As an aside, this is the last time I will use helicopters as a significant part of a mission, they have a mind entirely of their own.  

Any other comments greatly appreciated.

Title: Re:A Defensive Strike
Post by: THobson on 09 Jul 2004, 22:56:53
New version uploaded just now.  

If anybody has any time and appetite for it I would welcome any further comments.  If any of you do a de-pbo on it you will see my learning curve.  There are triggers where scripts are better (because I didn't know how to write scripts when I did that bit) and you will see ugly scripts because I didn't then know how to write tidy ones when I did that bit.  I will be tidying this up soon.

My weekend will be spend decorating but I will get to any comments any of you make.

Thanks

By the way: The mission is now called  Defensive Strike.  I have kept the original name for the zip file to make sure the download link still works but it will find it under its new name in your Single Missions list.

Title: Re:A Defensive Strike
Post by: THobson on 11 Jul 2004, 21:15:49
I  made a few changes over the weekend and have just uploaded the result.

I am still not convinced the ending helicopter evacuation is stable.  I would be interested to know if anyone experiences any disfunctional behavior in the choppers at the end.
Title: Re:A Defensive Strike
Post by: MuSe on 12 Jul 2004, 12:03:26
Where is the new version? Maybe setting the choppers to setbehaviour careless will work? i can give you  a script if you want to make choppers land without waypoints or even with waypoints. Depends on what your doing.

Cheers, Muse
Title: Re:A Defensive Strike
Post by: THobson on 12 Jul 2004, 13:42:27
The new version can be downloaded from the link at the start of this thread.  

Here it is to save you going back to get it:


http://homepage.ntlworld.com/trevor.hobson/Operation%20Flashpoint/A%20Defensive%20Strike/A%20Defensive%20Strike.zip (http://homepage.ntlworld.com/trevor.hobson/Operation%20Flashpoint/A%20Defensive%20Strike/A%20Defensive%20Strike.zip)

Note you will find it under 'Defensive Strike' in your single missions list (not 'A Defensive Strilke' as previously)

It is hard to know what I need for the choppers.  I have waypoints that make chopper2 land and Bravo get in.  As you noticed this chopper sometimes lands way inland and not at the invisible H where the waypoint is.  I think I have fixed that, but it needs more testing.  The choppers are on careless, never fire.

The other chopper: well I give it a "LAND" instruction and in other missions this causes it to land and turn off its engine, in this mission it does a touch and go.  That is fine, I have constructed the end scene to fit, but as you expereinced the chopper also somethines heads off in land.  Again I think I have fixed that but it needs some testing.

If you do play it again I would also be interested in how you find the behaviour of the enemy groups in the first base.  Last night when I played it several of them headed off into the island, they will always come back as soldiers in the base take casualties (I have a script to join up the groups as they get smaller).  I have started using General Barron's AI Info sharing script and I wonder if they are all running off chasing the chopper that dropped alpha.  Or may be it is just random fluctuation.  

As ever, any comments are greatly appreciated
Title: Re:A Defensive Strike
Post by: MuSe on 13 Jul 2004, 10:10:57
If you want it to land without the engine being turned off use

heli1 land "get in"

I used that command in one of my campaign missions and it worked.
Title: Re:A Defensive Strike
Post by: THobson on 13 Jul 2004, 11:53:59
Thanks.  I tried that also, it still does a touch and go (in this mission).

What I am finding with helicopters is that they don't behave consistently from map to map or mission to mission or even from time to time in the same mission.  I am not sure why but it does require some working around.  I have an SP mission that was recently reviewed called Establish Bridgehead in which there is a major parachute drop of infantry and armour (yes I know this bit is not realistic) near Morton.  The routes for the helicopters should take them all well east of the town, but most of the time they insist on going west of the town and sometimes even overflying the town.  In the end I just changed my triggers that initiated the drop so it would accommodate wherever they decided to fly and put the result down to the chaos of war.

In Defensive Strike I use one of the helicopters in the opening scene (this works fine) and in the final scene.  In the final scene the provimity of all those dead and not so dead Russian units may be affecting its behaviour.  I'm not sure, but I think it is now sorted.

Title: Re:A Defensive Strike
Post by: MuSe on 14 Jul 2004, 10:18:27
yeah it does seem abit strange when they see russians, dead or alive its happened to me too. like pilot says: argh! dead russians 12 o'clock! lets get outa here before they come back from the dead!
Title: Re:A Defensive Strike
Post by: THobson on 16 Jul 2004, 22:06:01
This is becoming a weekly update.  But no longer.  I will be travelling for 3 weeks starting mid-next week with no access to a computer.

So here is the latest version, final except for real voices.  It should all run smoothly from end to end.

Here is the link in case you don't want to go back to the top of this thread

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/trevor.hobson/Operation%20Flashpoint/A%20Defensive%20Strike/A%20Defensive%20Strike.zip (http://homepage.ntlworld.com/trevor.hobson/Operation%20Flashpoint/A%20Defensive%20Strike/A%20Defensive%20Strike.zip)

Comments very welcome, but as I said I may not see them for a few weeks
Title: Re:A Defensive Strike
Post by: macguba on 26 Jul 2004, 14:34:08
Please read Reply #95 at the end of this thread.    (http://www.ofpec.com/yabbse/index.php?board=23;action=display;threadid=11801&start=90)   Thank you.
Title: Re:A Defensive Strike
Post by: Tarados Qeng on 28 Jul 2004, 17:42:53
Downloaded it and going to try.

Edit; Day one -

Intro - First I feel bit confused. Boring view, when camera starts moving it's veery slow. Then, a T80. Great, something happens at last. Zooms to the base. It is huge. Impressive amount of tents and stuff there, by the way. Overall, intro was kinda okay, the beginning was a little boring.

Briefieng - Good, notes section with lots of info is good. Nice gear, not too much, but enough.

Mission - Start in a chopper. Moving towards the landing area. Disembark with my squad. Retry. So soon? Well, later I noted that it is a good thing - I wouldn't like to wait in the chopper again and again. :)

Going towards the base. There are no patrols out there, so I just run. Then see the base. Take a look with binoculars. It's big. I'm supposed to capture with three men? Okaay. "I'm never gonna succeed!". I order my squaddies to engage at will at the same moment that I open fire on the patrol. We take them quickly and easily. I stand up and begin running towards the base. After 10 meters a M2 opens fire and I die before I can go prone again. Quite much same happens on the second time - I die.

Retry. I take another way, this time I come from left. I take out the patrol. Then move close to the base and save game. 5 second after that the Russians play alarm. Again I think "No way, this is not going to work". I start shooting. The russkies don't. Instead they just shoot flares and make it even easier to me to kill 'em. One by one me a my squaddies pick them. Somehow they manage to kill my buddies, but they don't even try to shoot at me. What's the skill level of these guys? Finally I get a radio message "they're fleeing". Hunh. Base captured.

Tried the second part of the mission, this far with little success. Trying again today.
Title: Re:A Defensive Strike
Post by: MuSe on 29 Jul 2004, 12:28:17
not doing well tarados? you suck! :P Just use MP5's and proning to be quiet and undetectable.
Title: Re:A Defensive Strike
Post by: Tarados Qeng on 29 Jul 2004, 14:10:19
No, actually I think I'm doing quite well. I managed to capture the first base on third or fourth attempt, and I've tried the next part for just a couple of times.
Title: Re:A Defensive Strike
Post by: THobson on 29 Jul 2004, 18:51:20
Well I am on the sunny pan-handle of Florida sufferring from computer withdrawl until we found this internet cafe.

The first base is now quite difficult but it doesn't get much easier.  I restart if I have taken any casualties before getting to the main base.  The russians in the first base all have maximum skill level.  I think I should give them some more NVGoggles so they can see you better.  It is a pity but the flares are actually more help to you than they are to the russians

I deliberately made the intro 'peaceful' at the start so there would be a contrast with what comes later.

I will not be back to my computer for nearly 2 week yet.
Title: Re:A Defensive Strike
Post by: Dubieman on 29 Jul 2004, 19:12:14
Thobson-mission maker and forum poster who earns his keep roaming from one internet cafe to the next.  ;D :D
j/k

Have fun in the US.  ;)

Hey I might give you're mission a final try tonight when its dark casue I hate SF missions at night with the sun glaring in my window. >:( ;D
Title: Re:A Defensive Strike
Post by: THobson on 29 Jul 2004, 21:28:03
That's me.  I have now found a computer in our hotel.

I hope you enjoy it now. I have had a few ideas for little improvements that I will put in when I get back, then I think it is finished and I can then try some one else's mission.
Title: Re:A Defensive Strike
Post by: THobson on 23 Aug 2004, 00:59:27
This post is just to say an enormous THANK YOU.  When I first posted this mission here I had only just discovered how to do a bit of scripting, I had absolutely no idea how to put a picture in an overview or how to do an intro, I had no knowledge of arrays and all those {_x} constructs just blew my mind.  I really have learned so much over the last few weeks it has been incredible.  Thank you all, and especially thank you to macguba for his incredible patience and detailed comments and encouragement.

I have just done my latest 'final' run though of the mission and apart from adding voices for the radio chatter I can find nothing I want to change.  Some time ago I wrote out a script for the voices, it ran to several pages because there are so many things that can happen (kill the SCUDs before the shilkas, kill the shilkas before the SCUDs, helicopter gets shot down, Bravo wiped out - or not etc. etc.), though of course in anyone run through they will not all occur.  Work and family commitments mean that unfortunately this will need to remain undone.

So thank you all again for the help with this.  I really appreciate it.

Edit: This mission has been reviewed and is available from the Missions Depot (http://www.ofpec.com/missions_depot/index.php?action=details&id=110).