(Review Completed) [SP/CAMP] Underdogs

[Undeceived]

Ok, thanks and good luck.

[Gruntage]

I think I might have come across a showstopper during my playthrough. During the 'Indications' mission, I tried to sneak into the police building but realised that stealth wasn't going to work. I got told to get out of there because a police car was on its way, and since I didn't want to fight outnumbered and outgunned I retreated to the 'car' task location.  When I got there though, there was no car and I waited 10 minutes to see if one would appear, but nothing happened. Elias was there but he looked as confused as I was  . Maybe someone took his car  . Either way the mission doesn't seem to end here.

Maybe I've missed something with this mission but with how the campaign has played so far I was expecting the mission to continue in some way regardless of whether I found anything at the police station or not. The campaign seems to have an answer for anything the player does, which is fantastic, but that doesn't seem to be the case here. With how observant the AI are, how they're placed and how the police station was designed layout-wise, it didn't come across as if entering by stealth was possible. When I decided to brute force my way in and shoot everything I saw, there weren't any indications as to what to search for exactly; there weren't any prompts or any obvious documents to pick up. Unless the option to pick something up is only present if the player is undetected?  . But I'd have thought the option to pick up information would be there regardless of whether you were spotted or not.

So anyway, I'm not sure at the moment how this mission is supposed to play out currently and I'm seemingly met with no conclusion if I do what Elias is telling me to do. Right now the objective comes across if it's not doable by design, like it's intended to not be doable for story purposes and the player has to retreat to find answers elsewhere. This would actually make a lot of sense narratively since Nikas may not be thinking rationally and therefore would attempt to break into a police station out of desperation not realising that it's a crazy idea and possibly doomed from the start. I'm digressing though.

So having an objective that isn't achievable by design isn't a bad idea and this isn't criticism by any means; it's been been done many times by mission makers and it's a good storytelling tool. But I don't know if that's what you were going for here, because if you were then there ought to be a car at the task location and the mission would proceed. Unless it's just a bug and that is what you were going for.

Maybe there's some trick to this mission I'm not seeing. There could be an argument that maybe some more information is needed for the player on what to do and how to do it. At any rate, I'm at something of a standstill at the moment. I think I'm just a little confused and I'm trying to make sense of it 

[Undeceived]

Thanks, Gruntage. It seems you've found a weak point in the campaign. In this mission the boys put everything on one card. Either now or never, as told in the cutscene or briefing (don't remember exactly where). Therefor you really have to search the station for information. But - I checked it - WHAT you search is indeed unclear (there are some documents on a desk in an office).

You can try to sneak in but it's very likely that they'll see you.

Regarding the ending: As they bet everything on that card (and thus the mission demands the finding of the documents), I'm not quite sure what to do when the player gets out of there because of the police reinforcements. I'm open for ideas here and I'd implement them. One example could be that I make it clearer that the task HAS TO be completed.

[Undeceived]

This mission is very simple, there's no trick to it. Get in, get the docs, get out. The next mission then balances out the simplicity.

[Gruntage]

Ah ok, that does make things clearer. I assumed that, with how the campaign has allowed the player a lot of freedom when it comes to choices, this mission would continue in that way.

I think perhaps the issue here is an absence of information that would make your intentions as a mission maker crystal clear. This is probably an extreme way to do it, but if you had the mission fail because the player left the area without the crucial information, then that would solve that problem. You get across the idea that this objective has to be completed no matter what.

Also when you present the player with an instruction to leave because of impending danger, I think a lot of players would naturally leave. At that point, when on the one hand you have objective that must be completed AND you're telling the player to leave, you're essentially giving the player mixed messages. Silly people like me  will take those instructions literally especially if they're presented with what seems to be an impossible objective at first glance.

The solution to this problem is really just to remove any information that would lead to the player thinking that they have an avenue of retreat; don't give the player that option basically. Information just needs to be a little clearer.

But now that I know that the objective must be completed, then I can proceed. Whether you decide to go in and make some adjustments to this is up to you.

EDIT: There were a lot of documents lying around so it's possible I missed them.

[Gruntage]

Sorry I should point out that when I say an impossible objective I just mean impossible by means of stealth; I never had any issues clearing the station out rambo style  . I guess it wasn't clear whether stealth was the aim or not.

[Undeceived]

if you had the mission fail because the player left the area without the crucial information, then that would solve that problem

I thought about this too. It's extreme but the mission is quite short so I think it would not hurt that much.

mixed messages

Point taken, good thought.

Will you wait until I update this or get on with it already? I hope I can update it until tomorrow or Monday.

[Gruntage]

I'm happy to wait for changes so take your time! By the way I'm nitpicky as hell so don't be disheartened by anything I've said here today.

[Undeceived]

As always, I am grateful for any feedback I can get. And your criticism is very constructive anyway.

I rather wouldn't invest weeks though to realize such great ideas as it was the case in the BL thread. But small (and important) changes like this one are possible of course.

And fixing showstoppers of course.

[Undeceived]

Btw. I'm not sure what happens when you try to resume the updated campaign from this mission. As there are many variables passed forward etc. there could be some issues. That would rather speak for a new beginning.

[Gruntage]

I'm fine with starting from the beginning as it will give me an opportunity to refresh my memory and discover more so don't worry about that.

[Undeceived]

I've come across some more issues I'd like to adress. The revive system had to be replaced (didn't work anymore) and some other things. I'll give my best to update the campaign this week. Sorry!

[Gruntage]

No worries!  Take your time. I'll put the review on hold for now.

[Undeceived]

Ok, Gruntage, I updated it (actually twice ). It should be ok now, you can get on with your review... Adressed a ton of stuff.

Btw. make sure you see the version 1.92 of the campaign ingame. I happened for me once that I updated via Steam Workshop, but somehow ingame it still had the old version. So better double check it.

If there are more problems, please let me know.

[Gruntage]

Thanks Undeceived, will continue the review and I'll let you know if there are any issues