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Missions Depot => Mission Discussion => Arma3 - Reviewed Missions => Topic started by: Undeceived on 28 Feb 2017, 02:40:26

Title: (Review Completed) [SP/CAMP] Underdogs
Post by: Undeceived on 28 Feb 2017, 02:40:26
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1009784488655601705/1176622600433180672/Underdogs1024_512.png?ex=656f8a30&is=655d1530&hm=25e00beb2a5b5968f6cd497e866d1005ffde35d75a88a28a4fad8cd4c7c93ef5&)



UNDERDOGS



Version: 1.92 (updated December 15, 2023)
Author: Undeceived
Gametype: SP campaign


Description:
"We were totally excited when we finally got the green light for the job that our contact Manos had told us about. Just a simple burglary - a pile of money waiting for us in return. At that moment we didn't know that this would be the trigger of a terrible nightmare and a wearying run for our lives..."

A story-driven mini-campaign (5 missions, cutscenes, multiple endings) about a group of Altian kids trying to survive the consequences of a deadly coincidence.


Trailers:
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1009784488655601705/1176622600772927620/Trailer1YT.jpg?ex=656f8a30&is=655d1530&hm=079acecbef9158033b987c7a3e3638c62285909e134c558765a9c1f28bc7e337&) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWeiPqqeA2g)

(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1009784488655601705/1176622601049743370/Trailer2YT.jpg?ex=656f8a30&is=655d1530&hm=e8a9996295ec08d677cf474206ccbb0f75aa8606f8a9ebf885cd23e1a5389cf5&) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wNLqEfy_hc)


Features:


(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1009784488655601705/1176622601322369055/bild4.png?ex=656f8a30&is=655d1530&hm=c04e656d8edd387db336d7996969859e78dfb1477573b42d66e114eda8f79f69&)


Required mods:


Beta testers:
Clayman, h-, mathias_eichinger, johnnyboy


Changelog:
v. 1.0 (beta)
v. 1.1 (beta)
v. 1.2 (beta)
v. 1.3
v. 1.4
v. 1.5
v. 1.55
v. 1.6
v. 1.7
v. 1.8
v. 1.9
v. 1.92


Download:
Underdogs @ Steam Workshop (https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=906356256)
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Underdogs
Post by: h- on 01 Mar 2017, 08:22:50
So many things, so few hours in a day....

I try to fit this in somewhere too :P
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Underdogs
Post by: Undeceived on 01 Mar 2017, 10:54:16
:good:


EDIT:

I got some feedback in another forum and I'm making a new version which should be ready in the next days (lots of changes, optimisations and stuff). So please wait for it, before you download and provide feedback. Thanks.
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Underdogs
Post by: Undeceived on 05 Mar 2017, 11:48:41
Ok, the new version is up now.

I really need more feedback on this! :good: Gameplay and bugs related, but also regarding the English translation.

Thanks a lot!
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Underdogs
Post by: h- on 08 Mar 2017, 21:32:08
At first didn't get far.
After the intro in the briefing window I press 'continue' and the game CTDs...

Retry -> skipping intro -> continue -> works :dunno:
Btw, change 'criminality' to 'crime'.

Cutscenes in general:
- I don't really like to say much about these because they're always so clunky and such, just because the game itself is not really cutscene friendly
- Oh how I so hate camSetTarget bouncy cams  :weeping:

1st mission:
- I would add reconnaissance foto(s) of the warehouse into the briefing because one would assume they'd take some.
- Liked the lock picking feature, although one could make it a bit more like it was in the original Thiefs (the handle would wiggle a lot and once lock was picked it would stay in the open position) so would get some sort of visual info that the lock is picked? :hmmm:
- The minute details on operating the PC were a nice touch  :good:
- No tasks assigned/to assign? Found this odd since the next mission has...
- Way too dark, basically can't see shit outside lit areas. Mileage probably varies here a lot depending on one's ingame and monitor settings..

2nd:
- So dark I have to crank brightness and gamma up to 11 to see anything.
- Impossible to complete, after 10 re-tries got fed up (the save point for this is just annoying, having to watch the same cutscene each retry just gets old)..
- The 'shake them' task gets assigned half a second prior to getting punched in the face and shot.
- This kind of design is really bad for this game, IMO of course ;), because the atrocious physics and still quite clunky movement (civilians seem to be more clunkier for some reason, limited to the 3 basic stances even??), got shot on several tries because the guy gets stuck on the damn chair or whatever for example, or because you have to point to the absolutely correct pixel to get a door to open, the weird delay the game sometimes has in responding to inputs (might also be just my old 'n' sucky wireless keyboard and the fact that I have to use a thumb trackball mouse), etc...
- Don't really get how this is supposed to work because no matter where I exit the house I get shot?

Story seems interesting up to this point though.
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Underdogs
Post by: mathias_eichinger on 08 Mar 2017, 22:30:35
Tried the introduction and the first mission this evening.

Cutscenes are clunky, thats true, but I like the story development and the little details like the encounter with police, the lock picking, and the whole gloomy atmosphere, as well as the details as the PC boots up. I won't spoil more details here, but I am already immersed and did not spot any bugs (waypoints did not show up, but I take it the mission has been designed with veteran mode in mind?).
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Underdogs
Post by: Undeceived on 09 Mar 2017, 12:44:52
First of all, thanks a lot for your time and for trying it out, guys!

What concerns me the most is the CTD after watching the intro. Clayman from assaultmissionstudio.de reports the same, so mathias, did you get that as well? I myself never had one.
I changed some minor things in the respective scripts but no idea if it solved it or where it came from.


h- :D I know about your passion for camSetTarget bouncy cams - I thought I had avoided them as best as possible, but I'll check it out again. Of course you're right, mate. :)

What I'm NOT sure about is the difficulty resp. finding a way out of the house when the killers first appear... I already tuned down that part a bit in the current version (I assume you guys are playing v. 1.1?). Ok, using a thumb trackball mouse might make it more difficult - anyway I need more feedback on this. I'll set the beating guy a bit farther away from the door though.

How to escape (SPOILER for h-):
[spoiler]Exit the back door then immediately turn right and behind the house, then run zickzack through the bushes. [/spoiler]


One other problem is the darkness of the missions. I can tune brightness up more, yes, but the problem here is that every monitor is different. I'm thinking of implementing a kind of set up before the intro so that the player can set the right brightness for his PC. But even then the clouds again can change everything. NVGs are a no-go for me in this setting.

I'll adress all other feedback I got from you. Thanks so far!
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Underdogs
Post by: mathias_eichinger on 09 Mar 2017, 20:55:18
So far, I am only through with the first mission, and I never had a CTD with that one!
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Underdogs
Post by: h- on 10 Mar 2017, 08:12:08
Quote
How to escape (SPOILER for h-):
Since this is the first time I have ever been in this house how would I know which door is which ;)

The whole thing might boil down to me just sucking, nowadays it is nigh impossible for me to play anything that is too fast paced. And I haven't really played the game in like 1.5 years (side-effect of modding).

Quote
What concerns me the most is the CTD after watching the intro
It happened right after pressing 'Continue', I'm assuming when the mission intro cutscene should start playing (the one in which the guys sit around and the priest comes in).

IIRC it was STATUS_ACCESS_VIOLATION which is sooo helpful in deciphering what caused it (BIS and their horrid error handling). It can, in my personal experience, point towards something going awry with some scripting but usually that happens only with 3DEN commands because those have like zero error handling, some of them CTD the game with incorrect param type passed or if a object is assumed and objNull is passed..

It could be one of the mods that does it though?

Quote
I know about your passion for camSetTarget bouncy cams
I simply can not fathom why BIS has made it so that when using that command the camera a) points to the center mass of the unit (because actor's face is what you would obviously aim at) and b) why it then follows the up/down movements of the center mass..  :no:
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Underdogs
Post by: Undeceived on 10 Mar 2017, 10:10:44
Quote
Since this is the first time I have ever been in this house how would I know which door is which
Sorry! :D After leaving the room where the uncle lies go straight (don't take the exit door on the right), then follow the corridor  to the left and arrive at the back door.


Thanks for your memories on the CTD. Would be great to know though if it still happened in the intro mission (exactly when pressing Continue after the Introduction briefing) or while loading the intro of the first mission (Trespassers).
Yeah, it could be caused by a mod... That would be the worst case.


Good luck!



Edit:
Ok, if it didn't crash when skipping the "intro of the Introduction mission", I assume it happens when loading the "mission section of the Introduction mission".
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Underdogs
Post by: h- on 13 Mar 2017, 20:58:44
Well, still can't get more than couple of meters from the house (can't even reach the mentioned bushes) until I'm peppered by three guys so dunno how any zig-zagging would even help (if it was even possible with this clunky-fest).
So, ENDMISSION.

Next one took a few tries to get the speed right, the dudes the chopper brings in seem to be indestructible so getting out before they arrive requires basically a SAS killhouse speed..

Really like the attention to detail you've put in this, the police station is really believably set up; and the sounds when collecting the documents = pure gold. :good:

Some minor typo/grammar stuff:
- change weared to wore
- the Police station is in German when playing the mission, in the briefing before the mission it's in English
- in the mission following the police station one (I guess it's called Manos) in the briefing change a sentence that says 'the sun had rised' to 'the sun had risen'

EDIT:
- Some of the markers in the mission Manos briefing are in German
- also the waypoint is visible line on the map
[spoiler]The "sniper" can kill the player immediately after the cutscene ends, and I mean immediately after (as in you don't even get a chance to even try to move).
It also seems to detect you through buildings and walls (which are hidden behind several layers of trees), and why it sometimes shoots at Costa (or whomever, I have no idea who is who) and sometimes not? Or does he just get hit by a ricochet?
Not really a fan of the idea having to babysit an AI because you can't order them to sprint or anything, they just retard away behind you and then you reward the player by forcing him to drag the moron when the "sniper" suddenly decides he's worth a shot too.. Getting to the guy is then usually impossible because you just die.

EDIT:
Didn't even understand why I had to find the guy and bring him with.
Took me probably at least 2 hours (in real life time) to finally find the smokes, then it took countless tries to get the smoke just right so that won't get shot and finally got to the dude, selected the pull action (should be named drag) and I couldn't move, all I can do is spin around but the guy won't move from any key...   :hmmm:

EDIT2:
Oh, so I have to put my weapon away first to be able to drag. Peculiar.
The drag to safety task completes even though I didn't reach behind the shack but went too far and got stuck on the railing thingy of the other house nearby but I guess git inside some trigger just enough..

The guy with the blue shirt disappears somehwere in the very beginning of the surprise attack, he reappears in the cutscene after Manos is dragged to safety.
He can also appear as Alpha X:X-somethingsomething and not with his name in the discussions after the Manos getting shot cutscene.
[/spoiler]
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Underdogs
Post by: Undeceived on 14 Mar 2017, 15:09:59
Good feedback, thanks a lot.

I fixed most of the points now but I don't know what's happening at some certain other parts you mentioned:


The Manos mission will be completely overhauled in the next version. While at the moment there is only one way to save Manos, the player will now have five or six. :D It will need some testing though.

On that part where you flee from the house (2nd mission): I repositioned the guy that's standing at the back door. He's now a bit farther away from the door which should make it a bit easier to run. I'll also plant some more bushes in the back of the house and maybe the uncle has left some stuff there too where the player can hide behind. :)

Thanks, h-
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Underdogs
Post by: h- on 14 Mar 2017, 19:16:01
Quote
the player will now have five or six.
I assume that one of those is setting the tire heap on fire?   :whistle:

Quote
You say the one with the blue shirt (Elias) disappeared after the surprise attack. Are you 100% sure that he wasn't behind the crates? This is where he crawls as the sniper starts shooting.
He was nowhere to be seen, I actually ran around there at some point when searching the smokes (I think the crates were actually destroyed by me with the car in the beginning or the sniper shot them to pieces).
I saw him hiding behind the crates/the wall but at some point, probably when I left looking for the other guy I didn't see him anywhere until the cutscene after saving Manos..

Quote
Dragging Manos - this should work in all cases - with a rifle, with a pistol and unarmed - I tested it just now... You're not using other mods apart from the required ones, are you?
The only extra mod I had running was 3DEN Enhanced and that can't interfere with anything outside the editor.
I was only able to drag the guy until I first put the rifle back in the backpack and then started dragging.
I tried this several times. Weird.
Although I guess it could make sense, somehow when people are unconscious and completely jointless it's close to impossible to move them :P (it's like 60kg becomes 160..).
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Underdogs
Post by: Undeceived on 14 Mar 2017, 21:04:59
Quote
I assume that one of those is setting the tire heap on fire?   :whistle:

Hehe, no. What good would it do to burn the heap? I mean... You would have to carry the tires on the street so that the smoke blocks the sniper's view. The sniper would be grateful as he can accomplish his job and go home drink a beer. :D

However I'm still open for ideas. If you play and then think "Ok, that should be a possible way!" then let me know.

Yeah, that's weird indeed (dragging Manos). I will need some more feedback on this as I have no clue. :dunno:
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Underdogs
Post by: h- on 15 Mar 2017, 06:44:50
Quote
What good would it do to burn the heap?
Tires smoke like crazy when you burn them, but obviously it would depend on the wind whether it would help or not.  :P
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Underdogs
Post by: Undeceived on 15 Mar 2017, 08:53:01
I know but they need to be in the right spot (dirt road) as there's almost no wind in the mission.
Saying that: You just gave me another idea. :D Thanks!
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Underdogs
Post by: h- on 17 Mar 2017, 07:15:57
This campaign should be renamed Frustratingdogs  :D
[spoiler]
The next one Konstantinos somethingoranother is annoying; seems that the enemy has some sort of weird Predator heat vision eyes because non of them wear any NVG (that I saw) yet they can spot me perfectly fine in pitch black darkness (in which I can only see lit areas and the sky unless I set brightness full and crank up a lot of gamma as well [I have an old IPS panel monitor so the IPS glow makes things worse :( ]) laying under a bush 100 meters away -> eavesdropping is impossible, they even usually spot the non-player guys who are like 300m away prone on the hill top where the mission starts so I'm smelling a scripted shenanigan  :scratch:

(Really wish the AI would actually be affected by light properly, the enemy is in lit area looking out into the darkness so they shouldn't see anything at all outside the lit area)

If I order the AI guys to pull back behind the hill then the enemy spots just me, I don't even know that I was spotted but the eavesdropping task getting suddenly canceled marks the moment (maybe move that so that when shots are fired it cancels?).

About the receiver thing, in the briefing it's said that the bugs have '100m or so' range implying it's somewhere around 100, seems though like you have to be way under 100 for them to work (remember that distances are measured from object center which means in larger buildings the walls can be like 80 meters away even though the building is said to be 100m away) which forces you too close and the PredatorHeatVision™ enemy spots you (I guess it could be the game, the AI has always since OFP reported enemies I can't even see)..

Oh, and just wanted to make sure that is the eavesdropping even supposed to be successful?
Because I once, out of like 10 tries, have been able to get so far that the guys start to wonder what was said, and then suddenly "They saw us!" and task is canceled..

EDIT: So it is meant to be successful, finally was able to do that without being spotted.

EDIT2: And now I have been on Fournos for 20 minutes and absolutely nothing happens ???
Just a note, we swam there (couldn't get any getin action for the rubber boat so assumed it was locked) and evaded all enemies.

Speaking of enemies, it looks a tad bad that the two guys at the marina stand perfectly still in wedge formation until you get close enough to trigger a trigger (I assume) and they the start to run around liek they spotted someone.  :dunno:
[/spoiler]
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Underdogs
Post by: Undeceived on 17 Mar 2017, 20:22:14
h- you seem to be plagued with every trouble one can get playing the campaign. :D That godlike AI is really a pain in the ass, it seems that I need to dumb them down completely... Thanks for the feedback.

Well, they say Fournos, but the "place of interest" it's not exactly on Fournos but on the way there, some meters back. Thanks for your report - I will make some kind of hint for the player in case he really goes to the little island. I assumed that the player would see the houses and car etc. on the way there, but again I have to realize that the freedom Arma gives is a challenge for the mission designer. I'll optimize that.

Hope you can finish the campaign, you almost made it through the the exertions and sufferings. :D (at least for one of the multiple endings)

Thanks a lot!
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Underdogs
Post by: h- on 17 Mar 2017, 20:51:13
Quote
I will make some kind of hint for the player in case he really goes to the little island.
They could just wonder among themselves that since there seems to be nothing there maybe they missed something and should head back to shore and investigate :dunno:

I guess I came close though because I did go to the pier after the boat sped off from there  :P
Of course I saw all the stuff but tried to evade any contact (obviously first drove head on to the roadblock or whatever, to die)..

Quote
That godlike AI is really a pain in the ass
I have recently spent a lot of time with the AI (while updating that old mission of mine here) and it is really annoying on all fronts (the autocombat being the most annoying), civilians probably have really bad camouflage value not helping the spotting issue. :hmmm:

You could try fiddling with the civilian guys' unit trait "camouflageCoef", that should make them less spottable, or fiddle with the enemy's spotting related sub-skill values :dunno:
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Underdogs
Post by: Undeceived on 18 Mar 2017, 00:34:26
Ok, that setUnitTrait command looks interesting. I'll check it out. Thanks.
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Underdogs
Post by: h- on 18 Mar 2017, 08:04:51
The AI sub-skills like "spotDistance" and "spotTime" (or something like that) are also quite effective.

If you're using 3DEN Enhanced (and you definitely should be) it has all this stuff easily adjustable.
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Underdogs
Post by: Undeceived on 18 Mar 2017, 11:09:30
I used it once and (as weird as it sounds) my experience was that it left decencies in the mission so that it was needed to play. Or rather said: Without it certain functions / parts wouldn't work correctly. That's why I gave it up. But it was an earlier version of 3DEN Enhanced so I'll definitely give it a try again, but not in this project.
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Underdogs
Post by: h- on 18 Mar 2017, 20:08:45
AFAIK 3den enhanced has never caused any dependencies.
However, there's something odd with A3 because a mod of mine I had loaded when I first played this campaign (it's a 3den mod) somehow inserted itself into the savefiles and when I then tried to resume a mission without my mod loaded I would get notification how your campaign requires my mod that was not loaded. After 15 years of fiddling with this game I thought I already had seen everything but I guess not...  :scratch:

Quote
Hope you can finish the campaign
Hope springs eternal, after 8 times watching the slow-mo cutscene and trying to hipfire the gun not hitting absolutely anything I'm pretty much ready to call it quits.  :dry:
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Underdogs
Post by: mathias_eichinger on 18 Mar 2017, 20:29:17
I am loving the Cold Truth cutscene, but the Into Obscurity mission is nothing but frustrating.
No matter what door I use there is always some sort of bad guy closing in and finishing me off. Impossible. Our hero needs a handgun below his pillow to stand a chance.
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Underdogs
Post by: johnnyboy on 18 Mar 2017, 22:29:52
Hey UnD,

Great cinematics.  I'm guessing you will voice it later.

I didn't get very far, but here's some feedback.

Pros:
- Great cutscenes and character development.
- Cold Truth scene watching the news especially well done.
- Got a chuckle about them watching Dying Embers...nice touch.
- Cool music during dream sequence.

Fix:
- News headline says "For dead".  Should say "Four dead".

Cons:
- For me, first missions are way too dark.  Can't see in forest when leaving auto house.   Couldn't see harldy anything in dream sequence.   After dream, couldn't find the door out of building for a few minutes because I couldn't see it.  Consider a different time where there's more light in sky, or providing a light source in rooms.
- Can't escape uncle's house without being killed.  I got frustrated and gave up.

Am I supposed to use hand-to-hand combat move on someone?  If so, I don't see an action, or have no instruction how to do that.  Running for doors gets me shot every time.  I'm guessing you want to build tension with a "narrow escape", but its too hard for me.  Either make it easier, or provide a hint somehow about how best way to escape, or maybe script a distraction (cops drive by?)  that draws attention of assassins, and allows you to get away.  Why does there have to be multiplle assassins?  A kid escaping one armed assassin who just murdered his uncle might be scary enough for this part.  If there's only one, then getting out the door and running would be a doable escape.

I see great potential here dude!

JB
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Underdogs
Post by: Undeceived on 19 Mar 2017, 20:16:08
Fear not, guys, your (VERY appreciated!) cries are being heard, :D I'm almost done with the next version which on one hand will have brightness adjustments and on the other that part (and also others) won't be so unforgiving hard as it is now.

Thanks a lot for your time and patience.
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Underdogs
Post by: mathias_eichinger on 21 Mar 2017, 19:02:06
Ok, then I'll wait for the next version before I continue with the tests.
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Underdogs
Post by: h- on 26 Mar 2017, 18:17:27
I'm sorry but simply can't finish this because I have now watched the damn slow-mo cutscene at the containers for like 30 times or more and obviously failed equal amounts of time..  >:(

I was able to once even hit the guy but apparently he is wearing some Level 4 BIS'd Armor because I pumped a half a mag into the guy and he just grunted couple of times and shot me in the face (for the 30+th time).

EDIT:
I don't really get how you could ever win this, probably now tried 50 times and the guy sometimes shoots me basically before the player character becomes responsive after the cutscene..  :no:

Do something about this cutscene stuff because it's seriously annoying having to watch the thing million times only to be killed 0.6 seconds after it finishes and watch it again..
You should make it so that if the cutscene has been seen once it would continue from right after player's guy gets his weapon when you die and have to reload (savegame doesn't have to be on that point, some scripting  with missionEventHandler "Loaded" should do the trick).
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Underdogs
Post by: Undeceived on 27 Mar 2017, 20:16:20
I'll see what I can do with the cut scenes so that the player doesn't need to watch them again.

The killer can be killed though, Clayman at assaultmissionstudio.de could finish it. Nevertheless I increased the time the player has to kill him. Coming up in the version too.
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Underdogs
Post by: Clayman on 28 Mar 2017, 20:54:00
Yeah, that was quite a tricky one. Took me several attempts to beat (not nearly 50, rather 10 or 15 or sth). It was a completely different challenge. But that's exactly the point. Undeceived, you do something that most mission creators today don't do at all: You tell a story. It's this very special, unique style which I so much enjoy. It's rather an interactive movie than an arma mission, just like ftloaf. So I'll never complain about your design.  ;)
BUT: I have to agree with h- here: Although I totally love your cinematics, watching the same cutscene over and over and over again is indeed quite annoying.
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Underdogs
Post by: Undeceived on 28 Mar 2017, 22:02:37
Ok, 10-15 times are way too many times too. :D I'll take a look at the cut scenes. An if()then{} check in combination with a variable (e.g. _thisCutsceneWasWatchedAlready) should hopefully do it. If I run into trouble I'll get back to you.

Thanks a lot, guys!
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Underdogs
Post by: savedbygrace on 01 Apr 2017, 00:31:42
Good to see you around Clayman.
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Underdogs
Post by: Clayman on 01 Apr 2017, 11:04:11
Thanks.  :) Good to be back in the editing business.
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Underdogs
Post by: Undeceived on 07 Apr 2017, 11:27:08
Hello guys,

first of all thanks to all for the patience and time while testing the campaign.

The new version is in the first post.

Changes:

V. 1.2 (beta)
The last point includes some attention to the cutscenes, tuning down god-like AI a bit more and giving the player a bit more of time in critical situations (showdowns, etc.).

Hope it's playable by now...  :whistle:
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Underdogs
Post by: h- on 08 Apr 2017, 14:25:49
Just a side note, if playing on DEV -> CTD in the very first cutscene when the camera starts to move with the text about 2021 financial crisis still on the screen.. There were couple of split second freezes and then CTD.
I'm assuming some mod is not compatible with the DEV version or somesuch.. :dunno:

I usually launch the game on dev because it's on SSD and the stable is on insanely slow (way slower than regular) storage HDD...

Anyhoo, still have absolutely no interest to read the BIOs of the main characters, dunno why, somehow it just feels boring :dunno:

- Nice touch with the selfie as recon pic (was actually thinking of that when I suggested the pics)  :good:
- I have waypoints now, yay!
- In the cutscene where they watch the news about auto-elite in the last POV shot of the TV (behind someone's shoulder or something) the TV shows the news in German
- The shake killers task is now easily passed; still ran out blindly, and managed to box myself in into the neighbor's fenced yard but gladly they didn't follow me there, got killed though because foolishly ventured too close to the house when going for the next task -> seems the shortened cutscene thingy works, at least with the uncle stuff.
- In the same mission I can put on a police uniform but seems that the baddies still immediately recognize me. Dunno if anything can be done about this though. In the following cutscene I have the default clothes on again, but in the next mission (the police station) I again have the police uniform on.
- Police station went without a hickup.
- Well, other than I got wounded in the previous mission enough to require a medic (FAKing yourself doesn't make the guy stop moaning) so now I seem to be in need of FAK on the start of each following mission; was at the beginning of the police station mission and now on the beginning of Manos..

EDIT:
I'm assuming there's a bug in Manos because when I get the task to find Costa he's standing right next to me, he actually came back right after the shooting started, he just walked into the walled-in Manos' backyard from the broken wall opening in it and I thought he was a baddie first and shot him but he was unwoundable..

I did have to reload the save after Manos gets shot because got killed a bit later, maybe that breaks up something :dunno:

EDIT2:
If I go where Costa is supposed to be the escaped guy is there and the conversation with Costa still plays as normal.
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Underdogs
Post by: Undeceived on 08 Apr 2017, 20:48:51
Quote
when I get the task to find Costa he's standing right next to me, he actually came back right after the shooting started

I added a stop true in the scripts now so he should stay at his waiting position in the next version.

Other than that I disabled taking over damage to the Manos mission as the guys had the whole day to rest and patch themselves up.


Thanks a lot, h-! :good:
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Underdogs
Post by: h- on 09 Apr 2017, 13:20:45
One thing I forgot to suggest for the 'shake killers' mission:
[spoiler]When you strangle WOLF 2 (IIRC) it might be worth forcing 3rd person view while the strangling is going on because it looks really bad in 1st person as the camera goes inside the baddie.. I'd assume this could be achieve with some of the anim related eventhandlers :dunno:
It'd be up to you if you see this worth the trouble, just my perfectionism speaking :P [/spoiler]

Anyhoo, back to the mission Manos:
- I'm a tad confused about how to save Manos now (getting to him, or out of his yard is really annoying now as you've blocked the hole in the wall from the previous version as the sniper can shoot in 100% accuracy in two second intervals.
I did some fiddling (because CBA allows the debug console while in-game) and got costa to stay at where should be so was able to get to what he wanted me to see (doStop didn't work, had to disableAI "Move"). The problem with this is though that I have two choices from which to choose and the choice B makes no sense because how can I claim to know what to do when I have not been revealed one single method to disadvantage the sniper? The smoke nades are nowhere to be found anymore apparently (unless they're in the car and completely missed them)? The tire idea Costa provides seems to be absolutely brain dead; how am I supposed to get to the ATV when it's directly in the sniper kill-zone when it's about 15% chance to make it alive to the house to begin with?  :dunno:

EDIT:
Been at this about a couple of hours now and I don't see any other way to save anybody unless doing a massive hike behind the sniper :dunno:
Also, costa is constantly injured for no apparent reason, whenever I go near the guy the 'treat' symbol appears ???

Oh, and there seems to be a waypoint created for you when you need to find costa? It doesn't disappear after you find him.

EDIT2:
Was finally able to finish this, it took me 5 tries this time to kill the final baddie.
Didn't experience any bugs in the final mission.
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Underdogs
Post by: Undeceived on 09 Apr 2017, 16:50:47
Well, there are 6 (or depending how you count 7) ways to save Manos. The mission was heavily expanded (before the update there was only one way - the smoke grenades). Some of the solutions are absolutely easy, some require speed and skill. I thought that the player should look around and find them out, like what would work if this was reality, what could I use, what could I combine, be creative and so on (if there are more ideas I'm looking forward to read them!). I tried to not make the solutions too obvious, giving lots of hints, etc. That said, some are right in front of the players nose, one makes a noise, many of them have to be "thought to the end" by the player, some are even pretty elaborated little quests like in a RPG (e.g. the tire burning method and another (also smoke related) way).

The question now is: How can I make the player move through the area with an eye and ear and being open minded for all these possibilities? What I'd rather not want is to present him everything on a silver platter. Any input is appreciated. :good:

Killing the sniper and using the quad to ignite the tires and drive it to the right spot are just two if these methods.



Hm, you're right, the strangle animations sometimes are not synchronized. I'll see what I can do about it.

Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Underdogs
Post by: h- on 09 Apr 2017, 18:11:54
I was suspecting that there are several ways due to the added objects (and you mentioned you were planning on adding a few).
I tried approaching a couple of them but no actions or anything popped up, tried shooting at one or two which had no effect so gave up.

Besides, it's really annoying trying to do anything because 9.9 time out of 10 you just die (and after two reloads it gets really annoying that you have to wait all the god damn fades and crap to get to press the load button).
After the tire idea by Costa I couldn't even get behind the parked car on Manos' yard without dying so no way to get to the ATV or try to figure out something else around the building.

Also something weird happened several times: if I ran at full speed crouched too close to some object the player character could just suddenly stand up, I guess one more bug in BIS animation system or something.
Was annoying because it could mean a headshot from the supersniper.

Quote
How can I make the player move through the area with an eye and ear and being open minded for all these possibilities?
In Hitman (the old ones) the player's character would turn it's head to look at interesting things around it (if close enough). Of course it's a 3rd person view game so would not translate directly into this but maybe something similarish :dunno:

The character saying stuff like "Maybe I could use that..?" and such might be a bit too obvious.
It's a tough one.
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Underdogs
Post by: Undeceived on 09 Apr 2017, 18:48:44
For a start, I guess I'll tune down the sniper a bit. :)

Yeah, exactly - what else could I do than hinting with sentences (which I did in some places) and showing camera moves towards the objects? That's a really good question. :)



EDIT:

Quote
I tried approaching a couple of them but no actions or anything popped up, tried shooting at one or two which had no effect so gave up.

Can you elaborate a bit more on that?
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Underdogs
Post by: h- on 09 Apr 2017, 21:09:26
Quote
Can you elaborate a bit more on that?
Not sure if I remember even, it's a bit crazy to play two campaigns (one in A1), try to fix my own old mission(s) and code an eternity project mod of mine simultaneously (and work in a dayjob in two shifts) :P

I think the trashcan was not in the space between Manos' house and the white building right next to it in the earlier version so tried approaching and shooting at it (IIRC) and then there was the trash heap behind Manos' house that now had some weird stuff like I guess a american football or something, tried approaching it but got shot in the neck so then I tried shooting it to no avail. Can't remember if I tried anything else.

I did fiddle with all vehicles that I could without getting shot.

Quote
For a start, I guess I'll tune down the sniper a bit.
It creates a nice mood for the mission though so don't tune it down too much, just a hair.
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Underdogs
Post by: Undeceived on 11 Apr 2017, 20:26:56
Anyone else wants to add something? Otherwise I'd soon release the next version in BIF, SW, etc. Of course any other feedback is much welcomed later too!

Again, thanks a lot for testing! This is what beta phase means to me. I want to release it publicly as stable and developed as possible. Don't like it when missions are still in beta status and unfinished open to everyone. This is why OFPEC is and always was a goldmine for me. Serious and committed beta testing. :)
Many thanks to the master of suffering h-  :weeping: :D and Clayman at assaultmissionstudio.de too!


h-, some final questions:

[spoiler]Which campaign end did you play?

Is that crash in the intro cutscene reproducible?

And on that question how to make the player move around with open eyes in Manos: I added this to the briefing a bit more when the "Save Manos" task appears. Hopefully it makes the player more aware and conscious on his surroundings. I'll see what happens. If dozens of player ask what to do in this mission I know I should change something. :D [/spoiler]


EDIT:

And (most important):

How was the adjustable brightness? Really need some feedback on that.
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Underdogs
Post by: h- on 11 Apr 2017, 21:45:38
The adjustable brightness worked well.
It was maybe a bit cumbersome to use because it was behind so many 'steps', but that's the menu system.
As it resets on each mission maybe add an option to 'restore' previous setting so you can have the same brightness setting easily :dunno:

[spoiler]
Quote
Which campaign end did you play?
The one in which you kill the killer guy at the marina.
What choice affects that? The one after the eaves dropping?
[/spoiler]
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Underdogs
Post by: Undeceived on 11 Apr 2017, 21:49:07
Good idea. Will implement the latest brightness setting into the inits of the mission.
Up to now I only loaded them in intro/outro cutscenes where the player can't set anything.


[spoiler]Yes. If you choose to catch Venizelos or if you are detected then this is the way to the other endings.[/spoiler]
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Underdogs
Post by: Undeceived on 21 Apr 2017, 10:47:31
Meanwhile I released a new version (v. 1.4) on SW and BIF. I'll update the first post soon (I'm at work atm), just wanted to make sure no one takes a look at v. 1.2.




EDIT:

Ok, first post is up to date now.
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Underdogs
Post by: h- on 25 Apr 2017, 20:26:46
Damn, again with this..
 :P

Is there any dangers in skipping missions (ENDMISSION), or does something break down if I do?

EDIT:
Got the following error message in 'Into Obscurity' when choked WOLF 2 and started driving around in the car looking a way to Costa or whomever:
Code: [Select]
Error in expression <awn DAC_fShowRadio;
_searcharea  = call compile ((_zskill select 10) select 0);
>Error position: <compile ((_zskill select 10) select 0);

Manos:
There's a chance for trouble when you find Costa; you can order him to some combat mode and stuff but if you then OK him to show his idea he will be stuck in them.
So if you set him on combat for example it gets really annoying to wait for the guy lay down somewhere being afraid of contact, and as you know it can take a while for the AI to wake from these combat slumbers it goes into.. Probably wise to snap him back to whatever modes Costa was prior joining player's group if the player OKs him to show his idea.

There's also these in the rpt
Code: [Select]
23:47:03 String STR_manos2305 not found
23:47:03 String STR_quadtipp3 not found

Then, if Costa is wounded you can waste your FAKs healing him even though it requires the custom healing thingy to be used. You can 'remove' default actions with uiEventHandler, dunno if there's other ways too.

EDIT 2:
Ok, now I see what you did there :P

Too bad Arma's user action system is absolute horror show.. Almost 20 years and they haven't realized to fix that (well, they don't seem to care to fix the absolutely idiotic way doors etc are opened either..). >:(
Really fun to go hunting for the pixel to point at to get some god damn action showing.  :dry:

Still at a loss as what to do next after collecting all sorts of crap  :scratch:

EDIT3:
Almost forgot to mention:
Found the guy with the smoke nades so went with those.

[spoiler]Also tried the different ending, and even both of the choices in it.
Didn't see any bugs.
You are a fan of melodrama I guess  :D
The endings were nicely thought out though.[/spoiler]
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Underdogs
Post by: Undeceived on 27 Apr 2017, 20:50:17
Cool, didn't expect you testing it again! Much appreciated! :good:

That script error comes out of the DAC... No way I can fix that I think.


Quote
Probably wise to snap him back to whatever modes Costa was prior joining player's group if the player OKs him to show his idea.
Will do, thanks for the idea!


I created a small "walkthrough" for the Manos mission. If you're interested, check the "additional info" section in the first BIF post.
https://forums.bistudio.com/forums/topic/203629-spcamp-underdogs/


Quote
You are a fan of melodrama I guess
Hmmm, guess so. :D Can't do anything about it as it seems. :D :D

Thanks A LOT for your time, h-! Great job!
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Underdogs
Post by: h- on 28 Apr 2017, 12:48:38
Read the walkthrough thing, so I was one ingredient short :P

[spoiler]Found the trashcan idea, only by accident though because was engaging some targets with Costa and saw a glimpse of an action show on the screen and started wondering what that was..
Didn't realize to check out the bus, was just wondering that crazy driver came back even when there's guys with guns running around. Should've known, I knew the sound had some meaning :P[/spoiler]
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Underdogs
Post by: Undeceived on 28 Apr 2017, 17:26:42
I suppose you found the powder sugar and the heatpacks in Manos' shack but didn't find the workshop or realize you can create the bomb in there? There's a trigger inside "Create smoke bomb" (if you found the main ingredients) and if something is missing, the player character will tell what it is.

When the player first finds the sugar and the heatpacks he says that maybe he could create a smoke bomb. I will add the sentence: "But I'll probably need a workbench or something like that." So that the player keeps his eyes open for the workshop too. Then he will know what's missing.
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Underdogs
Post by: mathias_eichinger on 02 Jul 2017, 11:52:46
Hey undeceived,

I just retried this campaign and I am already stuck with the first mission. Even when I boot up the PC with a pulled monitor cable to avoid the monitor's brightness to alert the guard, he always finds me. What am I doing wrong?
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Underdogs
Post by: Undeceived on 09 Jul 2017, 12:16:16
Hi mathias, if you're not lying on the ground or crouching, he will always catch you. Booting up with the monitor cable doesn't make him catch you, he only will say something about the company and that's it.
He'll catch you depending your stance or if you leave the back door open (then he'll check out what's going on).

I suppose you're playing with the latest version found here?
https://forums.bistudio.com/forums/topic/203629-spcamp-underdogs/
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Underdogs
Post by: mathias_eichinger on 10 Jul 2017, 17:32:54
I am playing version 1.4 which can also be found on Steam.
I am unhappy to report there is a new bug in here. I paid attention to my stance and closed the door, and suddenly, a few seconds before the USB stick pinging to signal that the copy is complete the door busts open and the guard arrives. I loaded my savegame twice to make sure I did not accidentally hit the action menu.
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Underdogs
Post by: Undeceived on 12 Jul 2017, 09:14:29
I'll check this out. Thanks a lot!

Normally it should go like this:
Pick lock, enter building, close the entrance door, crouch, pick office door lock, boot up PC and copy stuff, pull stick/shut down PC, leave.

The guard will catch you if:
He has a line of sight on you outside, if he sees you standing in the office.

He'll go inside the building and check out the office if:
You leave the first (entrance) door open and he sees it open. But, if you're ready and finished copying, you can hide between the cars so that he passes you while going to the office.
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Underdogs
Post by: mathias_eichinger on 06 Aug 2017, 11:57:48
Hi Undeceived,

sorry for getting back a bit late to you, but the key was the open first (outer) door of the Garage. Now it worked and I can see if I can do the next mission.
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Underdogs
Post by: Undeceived on 08 Aug 2017, 20:06:57
Ok, thanks a lot, I'm glad that it was not a bug.
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Underdogs
Post by: mathias_eichinger on 28 Sep 2017, 21:10:57
I did not find much time for playing, but Into Obscurity is as impossible as always. Never mind which door I choose, I am always met with quick death. Will I break the campaign if I cheat-endmission?
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Underdogs
Post by: PatrickNis on 20 Apr 2019, 12:31:27
Was this changed at all? I think the endmission was bugged back in the day.
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Underdogs
Post by: Undeceived on 25 Apr 2019, 19:55:06
Hi man, I worked my ass off on this campaign, so it might very well have been changed from the last time you played it. However I don't know which version you tried out, so I can't answer your question completely.

What happened for you in the last mission?
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Underdogs
Post by: Undeceived on 21 Nov 2023, 23:53:12
I updated the first post of this. Can be reviewed.
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Underdogs
Post by: Gruntage on 22 Nov 2023, 00:13:38
I'll review this one  :D

I've never played this so I haven't been on the beta testing journey like with Black Lands so this should be very interesting. I'm extremely busy IRL and, as this is a campaign, this review might take some time, so bear with me  :)

Very much looking forward to another Undeceived production  :good:

I'll post again if I come across any problems, which I doubt.
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Underdogs
Post by: Undeceived on 22 Nov 2023, 08:17:22
Ok, thanks and good luck.
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Underdogs (UNDER REVIEW)
Post by: Gruntage on 09 Dec 2023, 14:36:37
I think I might have come across a showstopper during my playthrough. During the 'Indications' mission, I tried to sneak into the police building but realised that stealth wasn't going to work. I got told to get out of there because a police car was on its way, and since I didn't want to fight outnumbered and outgunned I retreated to the 'car' task location.  When I got there though, there was no car and I waited 10 minutes to see if one would appear, but nothing happened. Elias was there but he looked as confused as I was  :D . Maybe someone took his car  :D . Either way the mission doesn't seem to end here.

Maybe I've missed something with this mission but with how the campaign has played so far I was expecting the mission to continue in some way regardless of whether I found anything at the police station or not. The campaign seems to have an answer for anything the player does, which is fantastic, but that doesn't seem to be the case here. With how observant the AI are, how they're placed and how the police station was designed layout-wise, it didn't come across as if entering by stealth was possible. When I decided to brute force my way in and shoot everything I saw, there weren't any indications as to what to search for exactly; there weren't any prompts or any obvious documents to pick up. Unless the option to pick something up is only present if the player is undetected?  :dunno: . But I'd have thought the option to pick up information would be there regardless of whether you were spotted or not.

So anyway, I'm not sure at the moment how this mission is supposed to play out currently and I'm seemingly met with no conclusion if I do what Elias is telling me to do. Right now the objective comes across if it's not doable by design, like it's intended to not be doable for story purposes and the player has to retreat to find answers elsewhere. This would actually make a lot of sense narratively since Nikas may not be thinking rationally and therefore would attempt to break into a police station out of desperation not realising that it's a crazy idea and possibly doomed from the start. I'm digressing though.

So having an objective that isn't achievable by design isn't a bad idea and this isn't criticism by any means; it's been been done many times by mission makers and it's a good storytelling tool. But I don't know if that's what you were going for here, because if you were then there ought to be a car at the task location and the mission would proceed. Unless it's just a bug and that is what you were going for.

Maybe there's some trick to this mission I'm not seeing. There could be an argument that maybe some more information is needed for the player on what to do and how to do it. At any rate, I'm at something of a standstill at the moment. I think I'm just a little confused and I'm trying to make sense of it  :D
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Underdogs (UNDER REVIEW)
Post by: Undeceived on 09 Dec 2023, 15:07:13
Thanks, Gruntage. It seems you've found a weak point in the campaign. In this mission the boys put everything on one card. Either now or never, as told in the cutscene or briefing (don't remember exactly where). Therefor you really have to search the station for information. But - I checked it - WHAT you search is indeed unclear (there are some documents on a desk in an office).

You can try to sneak in but it's very likely that they'll see you.

Regarding the ending: As they bet everything on that card (and thus the mission demands the finding of the documents), I'm not quite sure what to do when the player gets out of there because of the police reinforcements. I'm open for ideas here and I'd implement them. One example could be that I make it clearer that the task HAS TO be completed.
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Underdogs (UNDER REVIEW)
Post by: Undeceived on 09 Dec 2023, 15:18:53
This mission is very simple, there's no trick to it. Get in, get the docs, get out. The next mission then balances out the simplicity. :D
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Underdogs (UNDER REVIEW)
Post by: Gruntage on 09 Dec 2023, 15:24:03
Ah ok, that does make things clearer. I assumed that, with how the campaign has allowed the player a lot of freedom when it comes to choices, this mission would continue in that way.

I think perhaps the issue here is an absence of information that would make your intentions as a mission maker crystal clear. This is probably an extreme way to do it, but if you had the mission fail because the player left the area without the crucial information, then that would solve that problem. You get across the idea that this objective has to be completed no matter what.

Also when you present the player with an instruction to leave because of impending danger, I think a lot of players would naturally leave. At that point, when on the one hand you have objective that must be completed AND you're telling the player to leave, you're essentially giving the player mixed messages. Silly people like me  :D will take those instructions literally especially if they're presented with what seems to be an impossible objective at first glance.

The solution to this problem is really just to remove any information that would lead to the player thinking that they have an avenue of retreat; don't give the player that option basically. Information just needs to be a little clearer.

But now that I know that the objective must be completed, then I can proceed. Whether you decide to go in and make some adjustments to this is up to you.

EDIT: There were a lot of documents lying around so it's possible I missed them.
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Underdogs (UNDER REVIEW)
Post by: Gruntage on 09 Dec 2023, 15:34:27
Sorry I should point out that when I say an impossible objective I just mean impossible by means of stealth; I never had any issues clearing the station out rambo style  :D . I guess it wasn't clear whether stealth was the aim or not.
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Underdogs (UNDER REVIEW)
Post by: Undeceived on 09 Dec 2023, 15:41:00
Quote
if you had the mission fail because the player left the area without the crucial information, then that would solve that problem
I thought about this too. It's extreme but the mission is quite short so I think it would not hurt that much.

Quote
mixed messages
Point taken, good thought.

Will you wait until I update this or get on with it already? I hope I can update it until tomorrow or Monday.
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Underdogs (UNDER REVIEW)
Post by: Gruntage on 09 Dec 2023, 15:45:13
I'm happy to wait for changes so take your time! By the way I'm nitpicky as hell so don't be disheartened by anything I've said here today.
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Underdogs (UNDER REVIEW)
Post by: Undeceived on 09 Dec 2023, 15:54:08
As always, I am grateful for any feedback I can get. :good: And your criticism is very constructive anyway.

I rather wouldn't invest weeks though to realize such great ideas as it was the case in the BL thread. :D But small (and important) changes like this one are possible of course.

And fixing showstoppers of course.
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Underdogs (UNDER REVIEW)
Post by: Undeceived on 09 Dec 2023, 15:57:24
Btw. I'm not sure what happens when you try to resume the updated campaign from this mission. As there are many variables passed forward etc. there could be some issues. That would rather speak for a new beginning. :D
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Underdogs (UNDER REVIEW)
Post by: Gruntage on 09 Dec 2023, 17:18:01
I'm fine with starting from the beginning as it will give me an opportunity to refresh my memory and discover more so don't worry about that.
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Underdogs (UNDER REVIEW)
Post by: Undeceived on 11 Dec 2023, 00:30:07
I've come across some more issues I'd like to adress. The revive system had to be replaced (didn't work anymore) and some other things. I'll give my best to update the campaign this week. Sorry!
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Underdogs (UNDER REVIEW)
Post by: Gruntage on 11 Dec 2023, 10:05:07
No worries!  :good: Take your time. I'll put the review on hold for now.
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Underdogs (REVIEW ON HOLD)
Post by: Undeceived on 15 Dec 2023, 23:23:02
Ok, Gruntage, I updated it (actually twice :D ). It should be ok now, you can get on with your review... Adressed a ton of stuff.

Btw. make sure you see the version 1.92 of the campaign ingame. I happened for me once that I updated via Steam Workshop, but somehow ingame it still had the old version. So better double check it.

If there are more problems, please let me know.
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Underdogs (REVIEW ON HOLD)
Post by: Gruntage on 16 Dec 2023, 13:36:09
Thanks Undeceived, will continue the review and I'll let you know if there are any issues  :good:
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Underdogs (UNDER REVIEW)
Post by: Gruntage on 19 Dec 2023, 00:08:02
Hi Undeceived, just to let you know that the review will hopefully be done between Christmas and New Year. I'll be away for Christmas so it will make more sense for me to focus on the campaign when I have a nice block of time to use  :D

Thanks,
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Underdogs (UNDER REVIEW)
Post by: Undeceived on 19 Dec 2023, 08:06:07
 :good:
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Underdogs (REVIEW COMPLETED)
Post by: Gruntage on 07 Jan 2024, 16:43:51
This campaign has been reviewed and is now available from the Missions Depot (https://www.ofpec.com/missions_depot/index.php?action=details&id=315)
Title: Re: (Review Completed) [SP/CAMP] Underdogs
Post by: Undeceived on 07 Jan 2024, 18:54:38
Great review, Gruntage! Thanks for the time you have put in it.

I was only able to skim the text briefly, but the points of criticism are well-founded and justified. I will go into them in more detail later because I want to take up and optimize the points for BL.

Again, thanks. :good:
Title: Re: (Review Completed) [SP/CAMP] Underdogs
Post by: Undeceived on 07 Jan 2024, 21:58:12
Small feedback on your thoughts on the overview: Indeed the good/evil or light/shadow was the intention here. The main protagonist looking "Into The Darkness". :) Also a bit of a modern look, perhaps something maybe remembering some video games such as Counter Strike that these young modern Altian guys could have been playing as well (e.g. like this (https://cdn2.steamgriddb.com/icon/f3d801966e7e0d77863c9f8b31d02529/32/256x256.png)).
But it was rather an experiment and I was curious how what its effect would be from a player's point of view. I agree though on the downsides if such an approch though. Probably wouldn't repeat it.

Quote
The process for reviewing this particular section of a mission/campaign has been made more challenging now as the Steam Workshop allows for additional images to be incorporated in the 'overview', so to speak.
That said, maybe OPFEC could expand their review contents a bit. But on the other hand I fully agree: The review is very important, and this is especially true for the Steam Workshop, where thousands of projects are listed on every page and you have to stand out with your overview to raise interest. I like how OFPEC emphasizes this part of a project.


On the other points:
What were your problems with the revive scripts? The only thing I remember was that sometimes the progress circle would disappear if you didn't look at the wounded which could be confusing (like as it would have aborted the process). Other than that it was quite solid, better than the former one (Psychobastard's AIS, which over the years has gotten some serious stability problems). I'm using exactly the same settings in BL. Would it be better to decrease the reviving time a little bit?


Quote
The text however is also a little small to read in places
That's an interesting point - you mean the subtitles in general? Could it be related to your interface size?
Anyway, I was already thinking about changing the subtitle style to something bigger but was unsure if it's good or not. Or if it would fit the scene, if you know what I mean.


Your feedback on the cinematics (really thanks, much appreciated!) got me seriously motivated to implement voice acting for the next projects again (in fact Underdogs is my first project without voice acting apart from BL for Arma 2, but this I still consider WIP), but given the size e.g. for Black Lands, I really don't know where to find enough actors who are up to that amount of text. :D


Do you have any other thoughts you would like to elaborate on when thinking about upcoming projects of mine?


Again, thanks for this review, it helped me a lot!


EDIT: "Click to see 1 other mission by this author." Actually there are two. For The Life Of A Friend was reviewed here, too.
Title: Re: (Review Completed) [SP/CAMP] Underdogs
Post by: Gruntage on 07 Jan 2024, 22:42:39
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maybe OPFEC could expand their review contents a bit

I think h- would need to elaborate on this but we're quite limited in terms of what we can change website-wise. I would like to see the review system improved but I'm also aware of what can and cannot be done.

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What were your problems with the revive scripts? The only thing I remember was that sometimes the progress circle would disappear if you didn't look at the wounded which could be confusing (like as it would have aborted the process). Other than that it was quite solid, better than the former one (Psychobastard's AIS, which over the years has gotten some serious stability problems). I'm using exactly the same settings in BL. Would it be better to decrease the reviving time a little bit?

My problem was that the process would stop randomly (the circle would disappear) even though I was still looking at the wounded guy, meaning I would have to start the process again. So a process that should only really take a few seconds would either not complete at all or take up to 20 seconds to complete. During this time I'm a sitting duck waiting to be shot and this happened a lot.

I'm not sure what to suggest but I guess reducing the amount of time needed to revive would be a good start. I probably wouldn't have implemented such a system because the protagonist realistically shouldn't be able to do it; he's not military trained as far as I know  :D . This means that if a guy dies, then he dies, and I would take the time engineer the campaign so that if someone does die, it impacts the story. It's a LOT more work, which I do appreciate and is why a campaign like this is something I wouldn't undertake because of the time needed.

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That's an interesting point - you mean the subtitles in general? Could it be related to your interface size?

It was the subtitles used in cinematics for expository text and dialogue. I'm just using the default interface size at 1920x1080 resolution. The text doesn't need a massive increase in size. Also sometimes the white text was a little hard to read on bright backgrounds as well. My point about the text is a nitpick but it was more noticeable because there wasn't voice acting to go alongside. My focus was therefore almost entirely on the text and it being on the small side was more glaring to me.

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Your feedback on the cinematics (really thanks, much appreciated!) got me seriously motivated to implement voice acting for the next projects again (in fact Underdogs is my first project without voice acting apart from BL for Arma 2, but this I still consider WIP), but given the size e.g. for Black Lands, I really don't know where to find enough actors who are up to that amount of text.

Yeah I appreciate that it's not exactly easy to find voice actors. If I had been in your position, I probably would have done it myself because the end would justify the means, even if meant doing all of the dialogue in German. Players would be able to pick up on the emotion in the spoken language even if it's not in a language they understand.

I'll use a real world example. I can watch 'Der Untergang' without the English subtitles and I would be able to get an idea of how the characters are feeling at a given moment. Like I'd be able to tell whether a character is panicked, angry, sad, etc, even if I don't speak the language to the level they do. You get the point.

I absolutely would have appreciated the effort even though it wouldn't make sense for a bunch of Greek guys to be speaking German  :D .

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Do you have any other thoughts you would like to elaborate on when thinking about upcoming projects of mine?

Possibly  :D . Was there anything you wanted to get my opinion on?

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"Click to see 1 other mission by this author." Actually there are two. For The Life Of A Friend was reviewed here, too.

Yeah I saw that and I wasn't sure why that was. I'll have a quick look at why that is. Should be fixed now; the review for the FTLOAF mission just need a little tweak.

Thanks,
Gruntage
Title: Re: (Review Completed) [SP/CAMP] Underdogs
Post by: Undeceived on 08 Jan 2024, 18:26:17
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Was there anything you wanted to get my opinion on?
No, nothing special at the moment.

On the revive system: I think the process doesn't stop, only the circle disappears. But not good anyway. I'll see if I can do anything to fix that.