(Review Completed) [SP] Red Tide

[Pilot]

@All
Currently, the reinforcement groups' movements are scripted.  However, I have been thinking of eliminating the scripting and using guard waypoints.

Here are the pros as I see them:
1). The guard groups will attack wherever the player attacks, they won't just move to preplanned destinations.
2). Fewer scripts mean less CPU usage.

Here are the cons as I see them:
1). The reinforcement groups will not attack from different directions.
2). The counter-attacks may be more unorganized.

The reason I am considering doing this is as follows:
If the player attacks the patrols, and sets off the alarm in the process, the reinforcement groups may not attack the player.  Instead, if the player is in the base sector, they will go straight to the base.  If I change this by using guard waypoints, the reinforcements will attack the player where he attacked the patrol instead of going to the base.  I am concerned about doing this, however, because (as I said above) the reinforcements will attack in a more unorganized fashion, and I think this would detract from the mission.

So, my question:
Would exchanging the scripting for the guard waypoints be something I should do, or should I leave good enough alone?

[THobson]

I think you kinow my views on this.  I suggested you do this sometime ago.  The first pro on your list is the big one for me. I think if you do it sensibly you will avoid some the cons, for example by having a switch trigger that sends them to a guard waypoint that is close to the base. You don't need to do it for all the reincorcements either.  It makes sense for some to head directly for the base to see what is happening and for others to be released to attack what is doing the damage.

[Pilot]

Yeah, I thought you would respond that way.

It makes sense for some to head directly for the base to see what is happening and for others to be released to attack what is doing the damage.

I was thinking of making the troops from Chotain go directly to the base, while the armor group and the two groups from Entre Deux attack the player.

Another question:
The reason I am concerned about using guard waypoints is because the groups on guard will go to where the player last was and stop.  During my initial tests, I would find that a guard group could be over 1000 meters from the base after the initial attack.  These groups would stay there for the rest of the mission unless the player made contact with someone.  So, if I have "guarded by" triggers placed over the towns and the base, will they attract the guard groups, so the guard groups don't stop in the middle of nowhere and do nothing?

[THobson]

In long missions you notice that guard units eventually return to their guard wayoint - but is can take along time.  You could have a script that gives tham a doMove instruction if they get too far from the base, or you could setPos a trigger on to their leader and if they lose contact with the enemy then the trigger fires a switch trigger to another waypoint.  Your imagination is the limit.

[Pilot]

Thanks for the input, THobson.

I think I will try using "guarded by" triggers first, and if they don't work I'll do something more complicated.

I've been busy lately, so I haven't been able to do much work on the mission, although I do have the detection script working.  I hope to have a new version posted by the beginning of next week.

@The detection script
Currently, I give the player 8 seconds to kill all the members of the patrol that spotted him.  Is this sufficient?  Also, if the player is detected by soldiers in the base or the towns, he doesn't have the chance to kill them to stop a timer.  The alarm will still go off.
How does the 8 second period sound, is it too short, too long, or about right?

[bedges]

been following the thread in a lurky kind of way for a while -

the 8-second question... how long does it take to say "Squad delta to base, we're under attack, position H421..."

it all depends on how you want to rationalise the communications. if the enemy is well kitted out, they'll each have radio, just like the player and her/his squad members. if not, perhaps only one of the loons has a radio unit with which to contact base. in that case, kill the radio operator and the entire squad is fucked.

also, depending on how many loons are in a squad, 8 seconds may not be nearly enough. take an 8-loon squad as an example. one second to drop each? if they all stand in line and stay still, then aye, maybe adequate.

i think you may be making too many allowances for the player. i have a detection script which triggers as soon as the player is identified. so drop a squad from a mile away, and they don't know it's you. that's unrealistic too, as loons would report coming under fire regardless of whether or not they could see the culprit, but in gameplay terms it's down to the player to be cunning. if you want to test the player's speed and accuracy with a particular firearm, then 8 seconds is just fine

[Pilot]

Thanks for the input, bedges!

Maybe I'll try to incorporate some sort of radio operator in the mission.  Or I could give the player more time to take out the larger squads.  I'll think it over.

if you want to test the player's speed and accuracy with a particular firearm, then 8 seconds is just fine

Not a bad idea. ;D :gunman:

-Student Pilot

[Pilot]

Ok, here is Version 1.4 of Red Tide.

Red Tide has been submited to the missions depot.
To download, right click and select "Save Target as"

The biggest change in V1.40 from the earlier versions has to do with the patrols and counter-attack groups.

First off, the patrols:
Each patrol has a radioman.  He is identified fom the flag he carries.  If you are detected by the patrol, you have anywhere from 6-10 seconds to kill the radioman before he gets a message out.  If you do manage to kill him in time, the base and towns won't be alerted.  The patrol will then try to flee to the nearest town or base.  If they are within 100 meters of the towns or base, the alarm will sound.  If the patrol is eliminated before they are withing that area, the alarm will not sound.

counter-attack groups:
The armor group and the two groups from Entre Duex now have guard waypoints.  This means, after the alarm is sounded, they will attack the player wherever the player attack, instead of going straight for one of the towns or base.  The group from Chotain still has scritped waypoints, so they will head straight for one of the towns or base, regardless of where the player attacked.

Note:
The german briefing is not yet finished.

@beta-testers
Thanks for the beta-tests so far!

If you have any suggestions or comments on this version...keep them to yourself.
 ;D
Just kidding :tomato:, feel free to make any suggestions or comments.

-Student Pilot

[wcrvieira]

Boas!
Well I still havent found time to play your mission, but I posted here because our friend Mikero posted this in my thread...

>If anyone needs translation from Inglise to port o gal
head on over to "red tide" (student pilot)
Even a readme wont hurt

I look forward to your updated mission

So I wanted to know if a readme is needed...
Because I can translate yours from english to portuguese from a day to another!~


Cya
BV

[macguba]

Right, here we go.  I haven't read any of the thread at all so forgive me if I say something stupid.     Glad to see you have updated the first post with the new version as well as posting it at the end of the thread.   :thumbsup:

Vet mode, no mods.  

Readme

Nice to see my campaign for named readmes is bearing fruit.   Hmmm, it seems I have tested this before ... shit for brains, that's my problem.     Add the date, otherwise its grand.


Overview

Good.   Version number is correct in a beta but lose it for the release.  It should go in the readme and the filename.


Intro

I remember this!    Good.   Minor points only.   At the start, fade the text in faster and leave it up for slightly longer.      Some non-native speakers, and indeed some some native English speakers, will struggle to read it.   The rule of thumb I use is that you should be able to read it twice.      

When the text appears at the bottom of the screen, consider making it slightly smaller.   Don't refer to "weeks", use days.    "8 days ago".     Don't have a blackout with text between the base and the ships, go straight to the ships and put the text beneath them.    If it is not too much work, change the term "invasion force" to "advanced landing force" or some other name that implies there will be follow up forces.    You don't invade Everon with 3 squads, and if you do you don't need 3 LSDs to carry them.


Briefing

Plan - good

Notes - good.  Separate the paras with a line.   Perhaps add a third para making it more personal.

Gear - give the player his tokarev by default and add a couple of pairs of binocs since some players like them.    Dish out more of the PKs and rocket launchers, there's no point in leaving them in selection.    I took an RPG and put PKs at 2, 3 and 4.    Remove the AK74SU, it's pointless.

Squad - I'd put the medic at about 7 since the squad is large.  Otherwise good.    

Map - good.

Overall, very good so far.   Everything I've mentioned has been detail.   You can really tell that this mission has already been beta tested and the author has taken note of the suggestions.



Mission

It's often a good idea to start radio messages with an indentifier.   "(Spetz Natz)   Good luck ...."    Better, since you have only a couple of radio messages, hunt around the Ed Depot and find I think its toadlife's tute on how to use the few callsigns that BIS gave us.

Moved up the gully then left towards the corner of the road.   On enemy loon spotted us and dropped 12 before he was shot ... I'd had everybody on hold fire but he just appeared on the skyline 20 years in front of us.    Moved up onto the hillside and dropped one then another, but the second had seen us and the alarm - which was excellent - went off.    We were in trees so I just stayed put and waited for the response.    A small squad came up from the base and we gave them the good news.  

Two more squads - front left and front right - went the same way then the armour came up our jacksi.   The T55 went down at once but the M113 survived and took out half the squad before I could get there.    The surrender option appeared in my Action menu.

My MG loons are firing at the M2 I think.   This is a problem and it must be solved:  I believe the answer is to use an empty M2 and move the gunner into it.    If that doesn't work then use a trigger to detect when the gunner is dead and blow the gun up.   I had to put a precious RPG into it but not before my loons had wasted most of their ammo.

Hit the surrender action to test.   Got several very similar shots of me with my hands behind my head but not much else.    :-\     Use a hidden Objective which appears failed when you get the loose ending.     It's very easy.   Read snYpir's tute on "how to use objectives and init.sqs".

Back to the mission.

We get taken from behind by I think two squads.   Two of my four loons have no ammo at all and there isn't time to rearm, so we are screwed.   I tried running away but we were picked off from the base.    The M2 debacle (which is partly my fault for not stopping them sooner, but at the time I was dealing with the remnants of the armoured infantry attack at the back and didn't know what theywer shooting at) has proved terminal.   Back to the start.  


Outro

Loose - fine.   There are too many tents for 4 prisoners.


Thread

At this point I'll skim through the thread.

If you want to annoy macguba you could use Scotland.

;D   I haven't seen what you used yet.    Actually that's a good point, rather than playing this again I'll have a look in the editor.

You've had a helluva lot of good advice here.  I hope you are spending lots of time testing other missions.  

This mission would be a good start to a campaign.

Never, ever make a mission which is "capture the base and wait for hte counterattack."  Either is fine - its a military game so most missions are going to be either attack somewhere or defend somewhere - but we are all utterly sick to death of that particular sequence.

Re-read the whole thread again carefully and make sure you haven't missed anything.


Mission Editor

Just a few idle comments of things that catch my eye.

Add comments to your scripts.   At least a line at the top saying what it does and how it is called.   You'll thank me in a year's time.

Like the flag.

You don't really need that many waypoints for the patrol on the dirt road.

Given that you already have something there, add one or two more objects to the outlying villages.   An empty vehicle or two; ammo crates and barrels; the odd tent.    Keep it very simple obviously, but just a few more things will give the place a much better feel.

I'm very unconvinced by the base.     Add a second med tent next to the first.      Place yourself in the middle of the base as a group leader and use command view:  you will see that the sandbags are on the wrong side of the entrance.  (Look where the road ends.)    Either make them along the line of the wall, or make them stick out more - the current middle ground is unsatisfactory.   Consider putting the M2 in a small shed.    Move the H away from the hillside and nearer the road.  Try the flagpole in the middle of the square.

The guards are very badly placed.   They are all just standing around looking stupid.   Is this place on a kind of dawn stand-to, or is everybody just waking up?   Or still asleep?    It should be obvious.

Put in a delay of maybe 30s between alarm sounding and the groups coming out of the buildings.   Will help build tension and might catch the player out.

There are two patrols around EntreDeux which get guard waypoints.  What hosed me was that both of these arrived at the same time from the same direction.   Separate them in some way either in space or time.    That will make the mission both slightly harder (in general) and slightly more fun.   Perhaps the second comes later, is larger and more poorly armed and includes civvies: it really is militia called out of bed.

Win Outro.   Fine apart from the second shot which is dreadful.    Suggest keep first shot, moving in, then keep the camera stationery and pan back and forth showing armour and choppers.    Using camera.sqs will make these changes painless.    Make the arrangement of guards and sandbags noticeably more professional than it was before:  a real army has arrived.


Well that's it for now.    It's going to be very good for a first mission.

[Pilot]

PTnbrvieira and I have been talking back and forth, and depending on how things go, he may do a portuguese translation for me.

@macguba

Add the date, otherwise its grand.

Ok, I will do that

At the start, fade the text in faster and leave it up for slightly longer.      Some non-native speakers, and indeed some some native English speakers, will struggle to read it.  The rule of thumb I use is that you should be able to read it twice.

Twice?!  Damn, it's nowhere near that.  About the fade, I don't think I can choose the fade length.  If I could, I would have done it already.  Any suggestions on this?

When the text appears at the bottom of the screen, consider making it slightly smaller.

Ok, I will play with it.

Don't have a blackout with text between the base and the ships, go straight to the ships and put the text beneath them.

ok

If it is not too much work, change the term "invasion force" to "advanced landing force" or some other name that implies there will be follow up forces.    You don't invade Everon with 3 squads, and if you do you don't need 3 LSDs to carry them.

Yeah, good point

Notes - good.  Separate the paras with a line.  Perhaps add a third para making it more personal.

I'll seperate the paras, I forgot to do that when I was going through the briefing earlier.  I'll try to think of something for a third paragraph.

Gear - give the player his tokarev by default and add a couple of pairs of binocs since some players like them.    Dish out more of the PKs and rocket launchers, there's no point in leaving them in selection.    I took an RPG and put PKs at 2, 3 and 4.    Remove the AK74SU, it's pointless.

So your saying to remove the Pk and RPG launcher from the selection and add them to the squad?

I guess I'll remove the AK74SU.

Squad - I'd put the medic at about 7 since the squad is large.  Otherwise good.

ok

Overall, very good so far.  Everything I've mentioned has been detail.  You can really tell that this mission has already been beta tested and the author has taken note of the suggestions.

Yes, I have had great beta-testers

It's often a good idea to start radio messages with an indentifier.  "(Spetz Natz)  Good luck ...."    Better, since you have only a couple of radio messages, hunt around the Ed Depot and find I think its toadlife's tute on how to use the few callsigns that BIS gave us.

Ok, I'll take a look

My MG loons are firing at the M2 I think.  This is a problem and it must be solved:  I believe the answer is to use an empty M2 and move the gunner into it.    If that doesn't work then use a trigger to detect when the gunner is dead and blow the gun up.  I had to put a precious RPG into it but not before my loons had wasted most of their ammo.

This is really annoying me.  I use an empty M2, and when the gunner is dead I move the M2 to an offshore island and replace it with another empty M2.  Yet nothing is working.

Hit the surrender action to test.  Got several very similar shots of me with my hands behind my head but not much else.        Use a hidden Objective which appears failed when you get the loose ending.    It's very easy.  Read snYpir's tute on "how to use objectives and init.sqs".

How many men were still alive in your squad?  The camera is supposed to pan through the remaining men in your squad, and then close with a pan out shot.

I'll take a look at snYpir's tute.

Loose - fine.  There are too many tents for 4 prisoners.

There should be more than 4 prisoners.  There should be a couple of groups of 4, and a few men sitting in front of the tents.

You've had a helluva lot of good advice here.  I hope you are spending lots of time testing other missions.  

I can't argue with you there.  I have tried my best to beta-test other missions, although I haven't done as much as I should.

This mission would be a good start to a campaign.

Uh oh, first mikero, now you.  I think I might have my work cut out for me.

Never, ever make a mission which is "capture the base and wait for hte counterattack."  Either is fine - its a military game so most missions are going to be either attack somewhere or defend somewhere - but we are all utterly sick to death of that particular sequence.

Uhhh, you're not telling me to scrap the counter-attacks, are you?

Re-read the whole thread again carefully and make sure you haven't missed anything.

ok

Add comments to your scripts.  At least a line at the top saying what it does and how it is called.  You'll thank me in a year's time.

Yeah, that is something I should do, but what can I say, I'm a little on the lazy side.  

Anyway, I'll get on it.

Like the flag.

Thanks

You don't really need that many waypoints for the patrol on the dirt road.

Yeah, there are quite a few, aren't there?

Given that you already have something there, add one or two more objects to the outlying villages.  An empty vehicle or two; ammo crates and barrels; the odd tent.    Keep it very simple obviously, but just a few more things will give the place a much better feel.

Ok, I'll see what I can do

I'm very unconvinced by the base.    Add a second med tent next to the first.      Place yourself in the middle of the base as a group leader and use command view:  you will see that the sandbags are on the wrong side of the entrance.  (Look where the road ends.)    Either make them along the line of the wall, or make them stick out more - the current middle ground is unsatisfactory.  Consider putting the M2 in a small shed.    Move the H away from the hillside and nearer the road.  Try the flagpole in the middle of the square.

Considering there are barracks there, wouldn't another tent look out of place?

Good point about the sandbags.  I will move them to the other side, and make them even with the wall

I will look for a shed for the M2

I'll experiment with the position of the H

I thought the flagpole is good where it is.  If it was in the middle, wouldn't it get in the way of the trucks moving in and out of the base?

The guards are very badly placed.  They are all just standing around looking stupid.  Is this place on a kind of dawn stand-to, or is everybody just waking up?  Or still asleep?    It should be obvious.

I was thinking some are asleep (the men in the barracks), while a few guards are keeping watch.  What should I do to make it more obvious?

There are two patrols around EntreDeux which get guard waypoints.  What hosed me was that both of these arrived at the same time from the same direction.  Separate them in some way either in space or time.    That will make the mission both slightly harder (in general) and slightly more fun.  Perhaps the second comes later, is larger and more poorly armed and includes civvies: it really is militia called out of bed.

This has been bugging me for awhile.

I will try to make one of the groups come later, and I will add civil militia to it.  I'm not sure there's too much I can do about the direction, as they are on guard waypoints.

Win Outro.  Fine apart from the second shot which is dreadful.    Suggest keep first shot, moving in, then keep the camera stationery and pan back and forth showing armour and choppers.    Using camera.sqs will make these changes painless.    Make the arrangement of guards and sandbags noticeably more professional than it was before:  a real army has arrived.

I liked the second shot.  I will see what I can do.

About the arrangement, the Soviets have only been there for a few hours, would the sandbags really be changed in that short time period?

Well that's it for now.    It's going to be very good for a first mission.

Thank you, Macguba!

-Student Pilot

[Mikero]

Yes, I have had great beta-testers

 

Uh oh, first mikero, now you.  I think I might have my work cut out for me

 

(which is why I am concerned that your devoting all your energies to this one single mission)

[Pilot]

I have been looking at Macguba's post again, and have a question.

Macguba said:

Don't refer to "weeks", use days.    "8 days ago".

Yet mikero says not to be that specific.  

So, who do I listen to?

[macguba]

How many men were still alive in your squad?

When I surrendered there were about 4 of us left.   The shots may well have been of the 4 of us, but as they were all from below with sky as background they all looked the same.   Make them from above and a bit further back, to give some context.  There was no panning:  we cut from one shot to the next.

M2s are a nightmare, it's not entirely your fault.   Sometimes they just shoot at M2s.     Forget the setPos thing and just setDammage 1 and be done with it.  The player will never be quite sure what happened anyway.  

Uhhh, you're not telling me to scrap the counter-attacks, are you?

No, no, this is fine.    This is basically a capture mission, which is fine.    If you do ever turn this into a campaign, the second mission must not be defend this base.    The capture and hold scenario has been used too often.    This is just capture and watch your back while your doing it, which is fine.

So your saying to remove the Pk and RPG launcher from the selection and add them to the squad?

Yes.    The squad should be the strongest possible.    Have a few regular AKs in selection to help the player balance the squad as he wishes, but basically the default loadout should be what you would want to take.

Considering there are barracks there, wouldn't another tent look out of place?

Possibly.   The trouble is that one tent (or one of anything) always looks out of place too.   Sometimes the best solution is two field hospitals.   Just experiment a little.  Same with the flagpole.    I'm not convinced the middle is the right place, but I'm not convinced the current location is right either.    Not that either of these is a big deal.

I will try to make one of the groups come later, and I will add civil militia to it.  I'm not sure there's too much I can do about the direction, as they are on guard waypoints.

If you can't separate them in space, separate them in time.   Give the second one a bunch of move waypoints after the synchroed move one, and before the guard.   Make them walk around the houses collecting the militia so to speak.

I was thinking some are asleep (the men in the barracks), while a few guards are keeping watch.  What should I do to make it more obvious?

Two loons in safe at the port.    Two or three loons on safe next to the M2 which is empty.    They are standing still behind the sandbags facing each other:  the gate sentries chatting in the dawn before the officer appears on his rounds.    (Use a hold waypoint and doStop commands but not for the group leader.)   When the alarm goes one gets into the M2, the other two go aware.     Inside the base, perhaps an internal patrol of two men on safe.   Perhaps two unarmed men with waypoints who have been up all night fixing the trucks.   Perhaps two unarmed medics chatting outside the med tent.  All have waypoints to take them to get guns when the shooting starts obviously.     The point is that for every loon you must think, "Who is he?  Why is he there?  What is he doing?   If I was in that situation what would I be doing?"

the Soviets have only been there for a few hours, would the sandbags really be changed in that short time period?

Dunno, you had some changes anyway like the barrels.   Either make it the same or more different, that was my point.

I liked the second shot.   I will see what I can do.

The second shot was the one of the BMPs.   It has four faults.   Firstly, the BMPs were seen to start up in the shot - they should be moving before the camera gets to them.   Secondly, the foreground was all just grass, which was very boring.    Thirdly, the BMPs were not well placed in the shot, which made it even more boring.     They should be about 1/3 of the way up the screen.    Fourthly, they were just a bit too far away.    OFP has excellent graphics at certain distances, and dreadful graphics at others.   Your cutscenes should always take advantage of the sweet spots.    Use camera.sqs to zoom in and out and find the best place.     Remember what your primary school teacher said to you when you were drawing?  Fill the page.

So, who do I listen to?

The one your are more scared of.   ;D    Nah, it doesn't matter.  Very minor point, matter of opinion.   Go with your own gut feel.

[Mikero]

So, who do I listen to?

both of us
 

fluff anything that's storyline to give yourself the widest possble margins.

Be deadly specific and over the top obvious to minor details

Be understated and subtle to anything glaringly obvious.