City of Dead

[Kuro]

Hallo,

the misson and my review are heavily discussed, therefore i want to start this topic:

What do you like, what do you not like at this mission ?

What is important for you, what is less important, so the reviewers can have an eye on these points.

How difficult should a mission be ?

Greetings
Kuro

[Messiah]

Cons:
* Overview picture
* No scripted cameras
* Unrealistic objective
* Too many enemies/Much too difficult
* Save game method was messy
* Music (I don't mind that song, but it doesn't fit)
* Clipping! ARRRGGH!! (enemies shooting through walls)
* Impossible to focus on main objective due to number of enemies
* No custom voices/radio messages!

quote from toadlife.... now i agree with all but one of those points - a mission without custom voices etc shoudlnt really be up at 9, maybe a 7 or 8... 9 and 10 is really voices only territory...

BUT

unrealistic objective - the mission reviewer is not there to judge whether the situation is realistic - its the mission itself they are reviewing - when i post mine up, then they'll see unrealistic for you - but if its fun and well made and gets the criteria, then why not a high score...

similarly i could say walking around the whole of kolgujev for one man isnt very realistic (although it is -  )

[deaddog]

There is one problem in this mission.  But it has nothing to do with the mission itself, or the author.  It is an OFP problem.

I HATE  getting shot by a guy whose gun (only) is sticking out of a wall.  Or whos body is halfway in a wall.  Or who shoots you through a wall.  I think everyone gets the point.  

Other than that, this is a fantastic mission and deserves the score it got.  

[Messiah]

cliping is indeed a problem.... not sure how Asmo could solve this...

[macguba]

Every mission is unique so you can't write a definitive list of requirements for a mission to score 9 or 10.    For example a mission that depended on having twists in the plot wouldn't do well on a replayability rating but obviously makes up for it in having such a good plot.

However, I agree with messiah.   For a mission to score 9 you would in general expect certain things:

• custom voices with good script and acting
• balanced portfolio of difficulty and savegames
• an involving plot with strong characters
• Briefing and Overview of the very highest quality
• Addons, if used, must be used well
• Lots of fun!

Cutscenes/intro are absolutely essential, but you would probably expect to find something and the camerawork should be of very high quality.   Similarly with scripting - lots of scripting is not essential for a 9 per se, but it's hard to see how you would get a mission that good without some scripts.    Remember that the "overall" rating should reflect the Ends of the mission design process, not the Means.

Realism is one of these things that don't really matter either way but the mission designer must decide what he is trying to do and do it will - if its meant to be realistic, make it so and vice versa.

Music and pictures are a question of taste and are very difficult to judge.    This is another case where execution is arguably more important than content, at least where giving a score is concerned.

As for your specific question on difficulty Kuro, for a score of 9 a mission should be playable by the average player with the savegames provided.     That's very hard to define, but if somebody like toadlife - a respected mission designer - has had to resort to savegame cheats for the first time ever then I would say that the mission is too hard for a 9.    There's nothing wrong with hard missions (I've got one in the beta forum at the moment) but the top score (which 9 is in the absence of the "ultimate mission") should be reserved for missions that everybody has a good chance of completing.

deaddog is right about the cutting, it's an OFP problem not a mission problem.    However, that very factor in and of itself should preclude the mission from scoring 9.    A top class mission should exploit the game's strengths, not it's weaknesses.

I have great respect for Asmo and his mission creation abilities and I'd like to thank him for his excellent attitude to this valuable debate.     A very model of how to accept constructive criticism.

[Artak]

Maybe I'm mistaken (it seems so long ago) but back in Mike Beil's days the scoring standards included realism. It was reasoned then with the logic that OFP is a war simulator, with an engine and code capable for unrealistic scenes also, but the game was originally about realism and OFPEC wanted to enforce that.
In my mind if a mission has a very realistic briefing, callsigns, custom radio chatter, plan, scenes, and all that it deserves a higher score than a similar mission without these features. However, if the mission is unrealistic and FUN it deserves a higher score than an unrelistic mission which isn't fun.

Anybody got that?   [size=0.3]I sure didn't[/size]  


ps. if the people think that the scoring standards have gone to the woods with some mission review, they are welcome to vote a rating and leave a comment; that's what they're there for  

[Sui]

I have to hand it to you Asmo, you're handling the feedback from both the review and the comments very well

Good on ya for being a good sport, sport ;D

I have to add my voice to encourage people to post up their own reviews in the 'comments' section. It really does add much more to the 'review' page


As far as realism's effect on score and how it used to be back in Mike's time as opposed to now, I believe a lot has changed on the OFP scene.

A mission that scored very highly a year and a half ago would be given a lower score today (I believe). I reckon this is because of the 'advances' in OFP editing knowledge.
The general level of knowledge is much higher today than it used to be, meaning things like custom resources, flash briefings/overviews and voices are becoming the norm rather than the exception.

It's damn good to see

[Gameer_77]

I think that all the reviewers seem to have very different standards.

"Camera" is one category which I find Kuro and Cappin' Winters seem to have a far lower standard than someone like Stu35. I don't think Asmo's mission warrants a 9 in the camera department, more like a 4 or 5 in my opinion (Though TLL has much better cinematics).

Similarly, Stu35 gave LCD's OSA2 mission only 6 whereas The Captain said he'd give it 7 or even 8! (Personally, I thought it was the latter...and I disagree with the 5 for the camera, but i'm biased - I made them (ages ago) )

I think that maybe the Cappin' and Kuro should raise their standards a bit, as they seem to be giving average missions above average scores.

My two cents (Always wanted to say that )

Gameer

[KJAM]

i like this mission though i onyl played it briefly, of what i saw it was very good, apart from one point, the inro........moreso the music, dont ya think it could have been a bit more, sombre.......i mean, cmon it was an arty strke not an after battle party lol

[toadlife]

BUT

unrealistic objective - the mission reviewer is not there to judge whether the situation is realistic - its the mission itself they are reviewing - when i post mine up, then they'll see unrealistic for you - but if its fun and well made and gets the criteria, then why not a high score...

similarly i could say walking around the whole of kolgujev for one man isnt very realistic (although it is -  )

Hehe. Well actually, on paper, the objective is very realistic. It was insane amount of enemies (Around 180?) in that 0.2km2 area that drove me to write that it was an 'unrealistic' objective.

To me, sans extremely deperate times (D-Day for example), commiting suicide is unrealistic.

Perhaps I just need to get better at OFP.

Regarding the standards among reviewers, they are extremely different, and I do think that with some reviewers, the standards are much too low. I'm certain this mission would recieve a score of 5 or perhaps even lower from some of the other reviewers at OFPEC.

But then thats what the comments section is for.  Different people have different tastes, and we can't expect the reviewers to be robot-like clones.

[toadlife]

There is one problem in this mission.  But it has nothing to do with the mission itself, or the author.  It is an OFP problem.

I HATE  getting shot by a guy whose gun (only) is sticking out of a wall.  Or whos body is halfway in a wall.  Or who shoots you through a wall.  I think everyone gets the point.  

Very true that the clipping is something that the author cannot prevent (it is an OFP problem), but given this limitation of the OFP engine, the fault still lies with the author for writing missions that exploit the problem in the first place.

[Kuro]

Hallo,

first many thanks for all that comments.
From your comments and after making up my thoughts i think 8 is the better score for mission.

For my understanding COD is a fun mission (like Clean Sweep), but far more bigger.
My basic indicator for the mission score are two factors:

Do i want to play this mission again after i have finished the review ? (for which i play normally played it two or three times thru). For this mission definately "yes". Therefore a 7+
Are there any faults, recognizable by the reviewer (i am only playing the mission, not checking the scripts for good programming) and avoidable by the author (in every city fight in OFP you have the shouting thru walls problem). But in this mission i really had no negative feeling about it. Imagine an entrenched enemy in the ruins of a small village: They will surely make holes in the wall to fight better and make an ambush.

Cons:
* Overview picture
Ok, but for me it is not big con because modern art is quite invidual.

* No scripted cameras
You are correct, the Camera is clearly overrated (i should give it 7 or . My biggest problem is, as at the Oscar award, what is good camera ? Fancy effects, or a good understandable Message.

* Unrealistic objective
Not in my understanding. To have a company (100 men) + support units in one village is very realistic. Of course to assault it with one platoon is not a good idea. But according to the briefing this size of enemy troops is not expected.

* Too many enemies/Much too difficult
It is hard, but i do not dare to down rate a mission because it is easy or difficult; Because it depends on the personal playing style/luck/OFP Settings. Only impossible and walk in the park missions are down rated.

* Save game method was messy
The three save games worked perfectly on my two computers.

* Music (I don't mind that song, but it doesn't fit)
There is music, the quality is good and you can turn it off. This is enough for me, i even liked the option to turn it off very much (better score). Because IMHO i do not like that kind of music, but it is not up to me to rate the music taste of the author.

* Clipping! ARRRGGH!! (enemies shooting through walls)
see above.

* Impossible to focus on main objective due to number of enemies
Please read above

* No custom voices/radio messages!
Ok, not good. (Therefore it should have been an eight).

Greetings
Kuro

P.S. Of course a review is NEVER really objective. And i would say as long as you not clone the reviewers you a plus/minus one range in the reviews (Means a 7 of Stu35 can be a Kuro 9, or vice versa). And i checked Stu35 reviews and you can normally calculate Stu35 Rate+1 = Kuro's Rate). But i take it to apply harder standards and come to Stu35s Rating. BTW Avon rated this mission with three stars (high score).
 

[toadlife]

* Save game method was messy
The three save games worked perfectly on my two computers.

I was just refering to it using three different radio numbers when it could have used one. It worked just fine for me too.  

[asmodeus]

Hey everyone!  :wave:

Intro

I want to say thank you to everyone for the feedback!  As I always say in beta testing any feedback is good feedback.  

For how can one learn new things beyond their normal realm without making mistakes, knowing about them, and learning from them?

 ;D

Review

I also want to say thanks to Kuro very much for the review and for this thread.  I'm very gald you and others had fun with this mission!  That's what I'm aiming for after all, people need fun missions to play that use all the great and fun addons!  (As Avon pointed out, so many fantastice addons, so few fantastic missions)  

As it's been said, every reviewer is different and it's great the way OFPEC has the mission area set up, the public can help rate and review missions, helping everyone that comes along after that know what they're getting before they download it!    

Personal comment from me

Oh yeah, and of course I made a mission that does what others try to stay away from!  I loooovee that!  Bring on the challenge as long as it fits with my goals,  it works, it's as realistic as possible without taking away from gameplay, and as long as I believe it's fun and others might think so too!    

Clipping

A lot of beta testers played this and we thought we had taken care of almost all of the "clipping".  The times it really can't be avoided are when the enemy is on the move, as a lot of them are in this mission.  Not to mention I had to make this city from a lot of "Mission editor" placed houses, making the AI react to them horribly.      (back then there was no big city whatsoever, I made the OG version without the Delta's/Rangers back before Resistance!   )

Anyways, thanks again to everyone and if you want to help me and others make better missions, give us feedback during the beta stage on the forums!    

:cheers:

Asmo

P.S.  If anyone that's having a hard time with this mission is standing up in the city, try laying down a lot more!    You stand up and you're dead for the most part, the city was not supposed to have that many enemies left according to "intel" and they were not supposed to have had time to build the underground bunkers that they did.  (I would have put those in the mission, but it wasn't possible back then)  

[asmodeus]

1 more thing!

If anyone's interested in the changes this mission underwent, have a look at the beta testing thread about it!  

http://www.ofpec.com/yabbse/index.php?board=23;action=display;threadid=6527;start=0

Asmo