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Author Topic: Invasion 1944 d-day  (Read 3301 times)

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hooahman

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Re:Invasion 1944 d-day
« Reply #15 on: 30 Jul 2003, 19:45:58 »
Omaha Beach was the beach where a lot of Americans died.  I'm unsure of exact #.  

Offline .pablo.

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Re:Invasion 1944 d-day
« Reply #16 on: 30 Jul 2003, 21:05:05 »
Quote
the airborne landings further inland where you avoid most of the problems we've mentioned.
except the #1 problem, which is the amount of men required.

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I don't know if you realise this, but MOH didn't copy Speilberg, Speilberg was involved in it's development
the game changed into a virtual version of speilberg's movie/tv series, so telling me speilberg was involved only proves my point.

Offline Black_Feather

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Re:Invasion 1944 d-day
« Reply #17 on: 30 Jul 2003, 21:58:06 »
a lot of the drops we're scattered over a large area pablo so its not too big a problem.

R.Y.A.N.

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Re:Invasion 1944 d-day
« Reply #18 on: 31 Jul 2003, 01:20:54 »
except the #1 problem, which is the amount of men required.the game changed into a virtual version of speilberg's movie/tv series, so telling me speilberg was involved only proves my point.


Well, I'm not trying to tell you you're wrong or anything, I was just pointing something out. I'm also not defending the game or the rationale behind the missions. Maybe you're misunderstanding me here. All I'm saying is that it's no surpise the game looked that way, because they weren't just emulating Speilberg, they were getting input from Speilberg. That's all, no big message in it.

I think some missions were you can hear battle rather than BE in battle constantly would be in order...from oral histories given by 101st Airborne members who were at St. Mere-Eglise, the groups were only squad sized on the American side many times, and in one particular example, an entire artillery unit abandoned it's guns and a 50 man platoon of German paratroops assumed their positions. 13 members of the 101st attacked and routed the position, and destroyed the guns (this is in fact the action for which Lt. Winters was recommended for the Medal Of Honor. Only one man per division received it for D-Day, Winters got the Distinguished Service Cross, the penultimate award, second only to the CMH). that's only 63 individual soldiers total. It would need to be scaled down a bit for OFP, and I think that the 5:1 odds are steep for a player, so make it a scenario were 13 101st members assault dug in guns being held by 3 eight man squads, that's well within the parameters of a platoon for the period.

Actually, I think that many missions from OFP give good examples of how the D-Day drop missions could be made. As far as the paratroops go, they were not intended to be assault troops anyway. they were to cause confusion, take out key positions, secure towns, and harrass the enemy, not gather en masse and attack fortifications in a frontal assault. they were spread out and seperated by the low altitude and high speed of the drop, so realistically, you'd start with say 5 guys, landing in a field at night. The Germans didn't hear them land- they are firing flak cannons and MGs at c-47s. the player's first objective would be to find equipment (most troopers lost theirs in the drop), and then to silence as many guns as quickly as possible. The next mission would be joining up with maybe 6 or 8 other troopers and attacking the gun positions like Winters did. then the next would be to occupy small german held positions in towns. The 101st were only supposed to be in action from the hours before D-day until D-Day Plus Three, but were in fact in battle for much longer. They plugged up holes in the line and were assigned key objectives as needed, but were much reduced in strength to start with.

Sounds do-able to me, I don't see many problems with too many units unless you actually play a scenario where you land at Omaha in the first wave and then slog your way up to the seawall or shingle.

Offline KJAM

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Re:Invasion 1944 d-day
« Reply #19 on: 31 Jul 2003, 06:35:33 »
RYAN, well 24 hours is a lot of time, from what i read, originally the german tanks and infantry werent in too much of a defencive position on the 5th, but given 24 hours they were able to re-locate a lot of the stuff, to better positions

R.Y.A.N.

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Re:Invasion 1944 d-day
« Reply #20 on: 31 Jul 2003, 16:08:15 »
Well, according to the sources that I have, which quote Rommel's conversations with Guderian, he was in nothing BUT a defensive poition, with one unit of panzers, the 21st, actually dug in as a defensive position, and the other 2 under his command not too far behind. Lots of speculation in Ambrose's book, by Rommel's contemporaries, and students of the battle, about why a man like Rommel would go so far as to actually forbid training along the Atlantic Wall, to prepare more defensive positions, because instead of training, he wanted every soldier to work making defenses. He got his reputation by brilliant manuevering, but spent his efforts on the Atlantic Wall in purely defensive work. He had wanted control over all Panzer units in the area of the defenses, but Hitler wouldn't give him supreme command off all those units. Rommel's argument was that the panzers not at the beachhead would never get there. Hitler overruled him and denied him a big part of his strategy. The criticism is: at places like Salerno, the Naval guns of the US Navy used fire control parties on the beach to target the tanks! So even if he had his way, Rommel's tanks wouldn't have done much good manuevering on the beach, right under the guns of the US Navy.

24 hours is a long time, and that is a good point, but it's not as if he changed his strategy for the use of his armor overnight.

But still, the D-Day missions you or I were to create should stay away from trying to emulate actual events, because that would shackle the player into winning or losing based on historical fact, not the player's skill or luck.

Instead of a Ranger battalion at Point du Hoc, I'd choose a mission with a small Ranger squad creeping up a steep cliff face to surprise a German gun emplacement that was supporting the defense at point du Hoc, if you see what I mean. It would still give the player a taste of the engagement, but without a pre-determined result.

TrackenHit

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Re:Invasion 1944 d-day
« Reply #21 on: 01 Aug 2003, 02:36:51 »
I think its safe to say that a realisitc D-Day mission is impossible with this version of OFP. Unless you ran delete scripts to delete the dead bodies, scaled down the accuracy of the Germans franticly firing as fast as they can, and scaled down the ability of allied troops to take out gun positions so easily, and then scripted in 'waves' of troops so that there won't be thousands of units in game at the same time....then maybe, give me a call if you want to try that out. I would love to help you out with something like that.


Someone mentioned using other allied forces, other than the American invasion. While any other allied invasion would be almost exactly the same as the American one, it would make more sense to perhaps do the more behind the scenes. Lets take an example of the tragic Battle of Dieppe by the Canadians. While the Canadians feigned an invasion at Dieppe British Commandos and Canadian Recon units went ashore to destroy some German facilitys and to steal some goodies down the beach from the main invasion force. While that Battle would be WAY too big to remake, the commando mission behind the scenes would be well suited for OFP.

Homefry31464

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Re:Invasion 1944 d-day
« Reply #22 on: 02 Aug 2003, 02:46:10 »
Maybe do what the Nam Pack did, decrease the accuracy for more realistic engagements.

R.Y.A.N.

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Re:Invasion 1944 d-day
« Reply #23 on: 02 Aug 2003, 19:40:44 »
I think its safe to say that a realisitc D-Day mission is impossible with this version of OFP. Unless you ran delete scripts to delete the dead bodies, scaled down the accuracy of the Germans franticly firing as fast as they can, and scaled down the ability of allied troops to take out gun positions so easily, and then scripted in 'waves' of troops so that there won't be thousands of units in game at the same time....then maybe, give me a call if you want to try that out. I would love to help you out with something like that.


Someone mentioned using other allied forces, other than the American invasion. While any other allied invasion would be almost exactly the same as the American one, it would make more sense to perhaps do the more behind the scenes. Lets take an example of the tragic Battle of Dieppe by the Canadians. While the Canadians feigned an invasion at Dieppe British Commandos and Canadian Recon units went ashore to destroy some German facilitys and to steal some goodies down the beach from the main invasion force. While that Battle would be WAY too big to remake, the commando mission behind the scenes would be well suited for OFP.

I'm very confused by your post, because not only did I just give several examples of how to do this, I also mentioned it would be a mistake to try to emulate any actual mission based strictly on it's historical outcome. Read my Ranger assault on Pointe-du-Hoc example again. Now this wouldn't be a mission where you start in a Higgins boat, land, then scale the cliff with the rest of the battalion. In my example, I use a similar, but not identical, situation, by a smaller group of Rangers, a fictional mission, in which they support the action the main body of Rangers are engaged in, they do not actually participate in it. They already start ashore, and can HEAR the battle, but not actually see it (Use weather to your advantage! Perhaps it is raining in "your" D-day mission, or the fog has rolled in, or whatever. The coast has quickly changing weather)

Similarly, the concept of the 506th and 508th PIR drops are a great idea for a D-day scenario. D-day was not just the events depicted in the movies. Although some of them were quite beleivable, they are not the whole story.

The attitude that rigidly binds your attention to just the beach landings, or just the beach landings that were depicted in film (some of the landings were not strongly opposed), or to trying to 're-enact' historical events as they happened is the wrong path the explore. use your imagination. i have already given an example of a mission that will give the feeling of one of the famous events of D-day, without the need for hundreds of troops, and without pre-determining the outcome of the fight. there are many others. Do not be bound by strict adhereance to historical fact. Try a twist on some actual events leading up to D-day. For example:

Several missions including only one or two men were undertaken preceeding the invasion, to take ground level photographs of defenses, and to take soil samples to judge the suitability of the beach to support the weight of armored units. Take that event, and your example of Dieppe. Now put a twist on it, like this-

A five man commando team swims ashore on a beachhead other than that of the one on the Cotentin penninsula in Normandy. Say, the Pas-de-Calais. It is D-Day minus one, the day before the invasion. They are to probe enemy defenses, blow up mine fields and destroy armored units and guns if possible, to convince the Germans that they are a pathfinder unit paving the way for the invasion of France, at the Pas-de-Calais.

Use your imagination and do not be limited to large scale landings including dozens of MG emplacements, hundreds of attackers, and a thousand or more mines. The airborne units had small skirmishes (if you will not believe me, read an account of their D-Day actions for yourself) and smaller missions can be adapted from primary missions, as in my ranger example, or a complete fantasy mission can be made, as in my 5 man commando team example.