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DEAD RABBIT

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AI Advancements?
« on: 27 Dec 2004, 22:36:59 »
(forgive the possibility that I have put this post in the wrong forum, I didn't really know where to put it elsewhere)

By now I guess the OFP engine has begun to be unraveled by Kegety and probaly by some other people I am not aware of. Graphically, the changes to the OFP engine have been significant as Kegety and tons of other people of which most of them are addon makers showed us. I wonder why this change has not yet happened to the A.I. (artificial intelligence)?

After all, the A.I. is the thing that makes a gameplay and makes OFP. As the years progressed since OFP's release, there were and still are a lot of things we hate about the A.I.. A lot of things are not standarized and in my opinion they should. Like convoy protection, you can't give a group of A.I.'s a simple task like protect that officer and make sure he gets out of there alive. Ok, programming the algorithmes is very hard, I know, but still we could add some basic battle tactics for city sized conflicts, or even make the A.I. aim more realistic and use more appropiate ways of standing for firing. And I don't mean, coughing up tons and tons of compatible scripts you have to add to a mission by putting the scripts in the mission folder adding the syntax lines in the mission.sqm. Scripts like that can lag missions down to depts that are unacceptable. It's nice, but for a mission editor adding those scripts and maintaining overall playing value can become so tedious.

One big problem I think always haunted mission makers is that A.I. can't look good, can't hear appropiate and don't act realistic on certain situations. In other words, A.I. have sometimes very bad and very unrealistic sensors. Like if you shoot the last man of a patrol in the head with a silencer without standing in front of them, they still know where you are and shoot you immediatly without "actually" knowing where you are.
Snipers are a pain in the ass in this case. They are terrible spotters on their own (without the additional scripting I mean). Even an officer with a set of binoculars can see more than a sniper. If you use the DESTROY waypoint, he will walk and walk and walk till he spots his target but.... the sniper is already dead, because he was spotted by the enemy first. You can't give A.I. the socalled "Intel". I think the main problem is there. You can't give an A.I. an objective. It's the primary behaviour pattern during a mission that an A.I. or even a human player needs first, not the skill, that comes second.

Summarized, the A.I. is a bad thing of OFP that needs a lot of improvement (and I hope there are a lot of people sharing this opinion). There are all these superb projects like ECP that increase the optionability and graphical experience of OFP but I think the focus should shift more to the A.I. side of things and we should start thinking of solving the problems like those I stated above. Of course, it has to be possible to change the A.I. and most preferably in a simple way. BTW you can scrap that last part of the previous sentence, everything in OFP is everything but simple and I know that, since I have followed the progress of the editing community since the demo was realeased.

So,
does somebody know if anybody has succeeded in finding the A.I. bits of the OFP engine and also, in manipulating those bits?
« Last Edit: 28 Dec 2004, 11:15:52 by DEAD RABBIT »

Offline Planck

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Re:AI Advancements?
« Reply #1 on: 27 Dec 2004, 23:05:56 »
As far as I know, tinkering with the .exe file is not done as far as making improvements goes.

For one thing it would be illegal.

Kegetys DXDLL didn't alter the .exe at all it only captures the video and applies other filters and effects to the output.


Planck
« Last Edit: 27 Dec 2004, 23:06:23 by Planck »
I know a little about a lot, and a lot about a little.

Offline General Barron

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Re:AI Advancements?
« Reply #2 on: 28 Dec 2004, 07:55:58 »
Actually, you are dead on the money with this part right here:

Quote
In other words, A.I. have sometimes very bad and very unrealistic sensors.
This is a HUGE problem, but it is really easy to fix. There are actually entries in the game's config for how well men can see and hear. By turning up these values, you would be amazed to see the results. There is actually pretty decent AI already programmed into OFP, but the guys are just so blind that they can't see the enemy until they are right on top of them.
HANDSIGNALS COMMAND SYSTEM-- A realistic squad-control modification for OFP
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Jimpy

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Re:AI Advancements?
« Reply #3 on: 30 Dec 2004, 01:39:22 »

Ok, listen in...

I have been playing with OFP for about a year or so now, but have only
recently come to the "user community", as it's probably (not) called.
I must say the enthusiasm of the fans is impressive. I have just spent
a while investigating some of the modded (terminology?) soldier
figure addons. Some of those are really nice. The crappy soldier
figures in the retail versions of OFP were something I had trained myself
to live with - but oh how I still HATE those awful "bunch of bananas"
hands. They remind me of the wee plastic toy soldiers ("Made in Hong
Kong") that I used to play with as a kid. Anyway, to my point...

I totally endorse the sentiments of DEAD RABBIT when he complains
about the AI in OFP. This for me is the one thing which detracts
from the experience of the game and reduces its sustained enjoyment
value. I seem to tend to play the game for a while trying to make it
do what I want and which I think for some reason that it should be
able to do, before giving up for a while. Then I come back and give
it just "one more go...maybe if I give them this order and split them
up into teams like this...and maybe..." . I play my keyboard like a
virtuoso pianist on speed ("right! Red team go there, white team go
there, green team...get shot...") but it still sucks. I never knew anything
about scripting until I came to this forum, but I again agree with
Mr. RABBIT when he maintains that this all should be in the game engine
itself in the first place and not plastered on top in the form of a user
script.

Don't get me wrong, I do like the game (usually) and I do appreciate
the astonishing amount of work that must have gone into building it
(how long did it take to create, by the way, does anyone know?), but
the deficiencies in the AI really detract from it and reduce it (for me)
to the level of "just another shooter".

Here, in the interests of stimulating discussion are the few small(ish)
things that I feel are badly missing from the experience of playing OFP
and if added in some measure would really make the game "rock". I shall
limit my comments to infantry combat since this is the aspect which I
have most real life experience with. I have never been shot at for real
(by an enemy, that is - range accidents are a different story. I can still
taste the grass in my mouth...) but have some experience of training to
fight infantry battles (British Army, 1980's). The essence of the OFP AI
problem is that those little guys just don't react enough like real
soldiers under fire do.


1. The guys should use cover better. Their use of cover seems to be limited
to falling on their faces and crawling about a bit. I know there is a
command "find cover" but I have never got this to work. The lads seem
to always interpret it as "Jump up, sprint about 200 yards in a random
direction and get shot". They should also move about in a more intelligent
manner under fire. For example, why the heck do I seem to always see
one of my men charging down towards the enemy like that guy at the end
of the film "Kagemusha" (and ending up the same way)? Now whenever I see
them do that I shoot them myself (if the enemy doesn't zap them first,
that is).

2. The GPMG gunners (machine gunners, support gunners, SAW gunners, pick
your favourite terminology) should be able to put down some really
effective covering and/or suppressing fire. In OFP it is hard (I find
it impossible) to have the gunners support and cover the movement of a
squad as they are supposed to do. The AI gunners in OFP don't seem to
engender any reluctance in the AI enemy to move and return fire. In other
words (and to use the American terminology) it is impossible in OFP to
convincingly and reliably lay down a "base of fire", which is the essence
of much of line infantry tactics.

3. It should be possible to *easily* order a squad to move to a location
using "fire and movement" (I'm sorry I don't know the American terminology).
By "fire and movement" I mean that a squad divides into two parts. Now
while one half bounds forward the other half cover them - firing on
the enemy if necessary to suppress them. Then they change roles; the first
lot fire while the second lot now move. This is pretty much the standard
way in which infantrymen move under fire. It should in fact be the default
mode of movement for all squads in OFP. Even Special ops guys, when the
hot iron really starts to fly, use this (except they do it with much more
determination and aggression - that what separates the seals from the suckers so to speak). They move in bounds under a s***storm of covering
fire from their team mates.

4. Talking of "teams"; the guys should in most situations work more as a team
than they do now. They act more like recklessly egotistical paintball players
than soldiers.

The following would also be nice (WIBNI)...

5. You should be able to dig in. I seem to recall that most of my time in
the field was spent either tabbing or digging. The Earth is an infantryman's
best friend. I do appreciate that the way the terrain is implemented in OFP
may prevent this, but still its absence does take away some of the real
life experience of soldiering.


6. There should be mortars, at least one or two; firing everything from parachute illuminating rounds, through smoke to HE. Splinters are arguably the biggest killer (or at least wounder) on modern battlefields. In reality infantrymen don't like to just wade into enemy held positions and slug it out man to man ("hey, don't you know you can get hurt doing that!"), they like to mortar the poop out of it first. And 105mm pack howitzer rounds are even better than mortars. Why isn't there any proper arty in OFP? Of course if arty were to be implemented then point 5
above would have to be addressed too...

7. There should be wounded! Some of the men hit should thrash about and
scream and piss themselves and cry for their mothers. The "medic" figures should not be able to totally heal the men like Gandalf the Magic Wizard. They can go over and try to stabilize them and stop them from dying, but not magically heal them. This is one aspect of OFP that slams home (for me anyway) the fact that you are just playing a stupid game with toy soldiers. Wounded are an overwhelmingly important aspect of warfare that is never as far as I am aware ever treated in any games. It strikes me as strange that in OFP you can have clouds of blood flying and bloodstains spreading over the ground (I even saw members of this forum enthuse over an "addon" where you  could have realistically splattering blood - ooh get that Texas chainsaw out...) yet not have any seriously wounded men. I suppose there would have to be be some crap about an "over 16 only" label if this were implemented.


This seems a lot but considered carefully there cannot be any supportable reason why more realistic behaviours could not be implemented in the AI. And yes, I do have a degree in Computing SCience with Artificial Intelligence so I know a little whereof I speak. I for one would love to be able to dissect the OFP .exe to fiddle with these things. How likely is that (short of going to work for BIS in Czechoslovakia)? After all if one can brainwash thicko real life infantrymen to behave like this under conditions of extreme stress then it should be possible to get a thicko computer to do it too. I realise the time constraints that games like this are developed under but it has surely become clear now that OFP is not your usual "play it through once then toss it once you got through all the 'levels'" game.

Will OFP 2 have the AI we need to have truly realistic infantry s***fights (and AI controlled tank battles that are more than just "Chaaaaarge! Boom!")? I hope so but I'm not going to build my hopes up too much just yet.


-- Jimpy

Offline General Barron

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Re:AI Advancements?
« Reply #4 on: 30 Dec 2004, 02:49:40 »
Lots of good gripes. Luckily some of them can be fixed by clever mission editors, but unfortunately I think some are just problems with the game (and all FPS games), as I'll get to.

First off, I totally agree that artillery should play more of a part in ofp missions. The truth is though, that is (and should be) up to the mission designer to implement in his mission. And there are a ton of artillery scripts in the ed depot, so you don't even need to know how to script to add that in. I've also written a script to easily let the AI use artillery as well, also in the ed depot. For some reason though, most editors don't include arty in their missions. Maybe they think it will make things too easy, or maybe they just don't know how important artillery is in infantry combat... ???

Most of your gripes have to do with cover in the game. How it is/isn't used, lack of suppressive fire, fire & manuever, etc. Unfortunately, I think the problem is too... fundamental to the game engine I guess... to be fixed via scripting. The problem is, when you really look at it, there is almost no cover in the game to speak of. I'm talking about the lack of micro-terrain: there are no little ditches to squeeze into, no patches of grass to hide behind, etc. Just a few giant bushes scattered across what is basically a parking lot.

You don't need military experience to know what I'm talking about. If you have ever played paintball, or even just crawled thru the woods, you would know that the ground has all sorts of little hiding places. Now imagine trying to locate and hit a camoflauged person who is taking cover in one of those spots from 100+ meters, and you would understand why OFP is so very flawed. In OFP, at 100 meters it is easy as cake to kill someone, even if they are "taking cover" behind a bush.

So without the ability to really use cover as in real life, there isn't much of a point to suppressive fire, squad rushes, etc etc. The AI does what works best in OFP: it lays down in the middle of the parking lot, and then it shoots back at whomever is shooting at it.

I don't think that modern computers could really handle making truly realistic terrain, and then making the AI use it appropriately; at least, not on an island like the size of the OFP ones. Also, part of the problem is that in all FPS games that I know of, you can only be in like 3 different body positions. There is no way to cram yourself into the nooks and crannies of the terrain around you. If there was some sort of "take cover" button, that would make your character cram himself into the space around him, then this could be fixed.

The most realistic infantry combat game I've played is "Close Combat: Invasion Normandy". It is a top-down, company level strategy game, not a 3d FPS game. And because of this, it can simulate the effect of terrain so darn well, since it doesn't have to render everything, worry about physics, etc. But for a 3d FPS to work as realistically as that game does, you would need to make such a detailed, life-like simulation, that I don't think modern computers could handle it.

But anyway, there are ways to kinda get around those problems in OFP. Many addons include so called "high dispersion" weapons, which are weapons with incredibly un-realistic dispersion rates, so the bullets often go quite a ways away from where you point. The result: it is very difficult for the player or AI to hit anyone outside of like 100-200m. Seems kind of unrealistic, but I like the effect: you need to get close to the enemy in order to kill him, as in real life with cover. I think it also makes suppressive fire a real possibility, because you can be almost perfectly safe prone behind a bush at 200m, but if you get up and start sprinting, there is a good chance that a bullet will randomly catch you.

Quote
It should be possible to *easily* order a squad to move to a location
using "fire and movement" (I'm sorry I don't know the American terminology).
By "fire and movement" I mean that a squad divides into two parts.
The term I've always heard for that in the marine corps is "squad rushes" (or fireteam, platoon, etc). I've made a script for them, which can be found here:
http://www.ofpec.com/editors/resource_view.php?id=683
But the truth is, the AI doesn't really perform better using them, unless you are using HD weapons. IMO that is because of the problem of cover in OFP, as stated above.


Now if I can make a shameless plug, I'd suggest you play my mission Realistic Combat Patrol. I think it is a good example of a mission using these principles in action: you get to call artillery to your heart's desire, and the enemy gets to do the same to you. You and the enemy have HD weapons, so instead of firefights ending with a few shots fired, you get some really heavy fights. It also uses a different way of commanding your troops, which is more difficult to use than the standard controls (you don't have perfect awareness of everything all the time), and you don't get that damn "birds eye view" either. I'd appreciate it if you'd try it out and let me know what you think. *end shameless plug*


Quote
(how long did it take to create, by the way, does anyone know?)
Actually I read something about this... basically, the Spaniel brothers had been working on the game since the early 90's. So a very, very long time. :)
HANDSIGNALS COMMAND SYSTEM-- A realistic squad-control modification for OFP
kexp.org-- The best radio station in the world, right here at home! Listen to John Richards!

Jimpy

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Re:AI Advancements?
« Reply #5 on: 30 Dec 2004, 19:37:11 »
Mr. General , sir,

Thanks for your response. I agree that a fundamental problem with all
3D FPS games is that they cannot possibly replicate the "complexity"
of real world environments, or if they do come close, you end up fighting
over environments as small as your back yard (I am thinking of games
like "Vietcong" in this regard here). I do think that OFP does make
an OK job of it though, particularly with the detail set at "high"
or "very high". There you get a decently undulating terrain with lots
of bumps to negotiate. Not like the real thing of course but not too
bad. I was always impressed with the scope of OFP, nothing else gives
you the chance to play a 3D FPS on a reasonably detailed terrain 100km
square (unfortunately you turn the game into a slideshow at"very high"
settings with more than a handful of units in play).

So there is *some* cover on the OFP battlefield. Appropriate AI use of
the *available* cover would therefore at the very least include things
like, staying down under fire (not running about like 'roaches when the
lights go on, but moving like they got a purpose), not lying down on
forward slopes facing an enemy, staying among the bushes and trees
(cover from view is always a good idea). Your "take cover" button would
be a super-cool feature - maybe in OFP v3...or v300?

I recently downloaded some of the addon soldiers with "HD" weapons.
Thanks for explaining the significance of the term. As for the resulting
lousy marksmanship, maybe it ain't so unrealistic after all. Many
soldiers in my experience aren't marksmen anyway, and in the field
with ball ammo in a real life situation their accuracy would deteriorate
even further. I once spoke to a Falklands War veteran (Royal Marines
Commando) who said he was astonished in some of the battles at how
much ammo changed sides without anyone being hit. I also read a
statistic somewhere (I don't know the exact source) that said that
in Vietnam the Americans on average scored 1 bullet kill for every
million (!) rounds fired.

I'll try those HD weapons out (for the AI grunts) and I'll also get
your "squad rushes" script and your "Realistic Combat Patrol". I'll
let you know how it goes.

-- Jimpy


DBR_ONIX

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Re:AI Advancements?
« Reply #6 on: 30 Dec 2004, 20:07:00 »
There was a find cover script made, but it very unstable, I never tested it.
There have been a few AI improment scripts, I think the FDF (Finish Defence Forces mod, www.ofp.info Mods Page) adds some stuff in, like AI flanking you etc.

Search the forum for AI, I remeber a few scripts that do similar stuff to what you want.

If all else fails, but VBS1 (www.virtualbattlespace.com) :P
- Ben

Jimpy

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Re:AI Advancements?
« Reply #7 on: 31 Dec 2004, 02:43:43 »

I'd never heard of Virtual Battlespace. Is the AI in that any better than in OFP[1]?

- Jimpy

Offline General Barron

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Re:AI Advancements?
« Reply #8 on: 31 Dec 2004, 04:14:04 »
Ok, I've edited the standard game config with enhanced vision/hearing values for the AI like I was talking about. Try it out and you might see that the AI isn't quite as bad as it seems; their problem is just that they are blind. You can grab it here.

Readme:
Quote
---------------------------------------

IMPROVED OFP GAME CONFIG

This is the original OFP:R game config, only with two changes. Men are given 150% better vision range, and 385% better hearing. This allows them to see the enemy, and hear/react to enemy gunfire from realistic distances. The values might not be perfect, but I have played many missions with these values, and the results seem perfectly fair and realistic. The formation dispersion for men has also been doubled to 10 meters, to keep single grenades from taking out entire squads. Those are the only changes to the config, but hopefully you will find the AI to act in a much more intellegent and challenging fasion. Let me know if you have suggestions/comments.

CHANGED VALUES

I changed the following values in the "man" class of the config:


   sensitivity=1.5;  //default 1.0
   sensitivityEar=0.50000;  //default 0.130000
   formationX=10;  //default 5
   formationZ=10;  //default 5

INSTALLATION

Place the file config.bin in your "operationflashpoint\res\Bin" directory. MAKE SURE TO BACKUP YOUR ORIGINAL CONFIG FIRST. The new game config will be used at all times, unless you run a mod that replaces the game's config, such as the ECP, FDF, EECP, Y2K3 mods.

Alternatively, you can create a new mod folder, and place the config in there.

EXAMPLE: create a folder called "@aicfg" in your operationflashpoint directory. Inside of that, create a folder called "bin", and place the config.bin in that folder. Then create a shortcut to your ofp.exe. Open the properties of the shortcut, and at the end of the "target" field (outside the quotes), type: -mod=@aicfg

MP WARNING: Usage of this config in MP might cause "modified config" messages, which could be interpreted by the server admins as you trying to cheat. I suggest not using the config in online MP.

---------------------------------------


General Barron
12/30/04
aw_barron@hotmail.com
HANDSIGNALS COMMAND SYSTEM-- A realistic squad-control modification for OFP
kexp.org-- The best radio station in the world, right here at home! Listen to John Richards!

DEAD RABBIT

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Re:AI Advancements?
« Reply #9 on: 08 Jan 2005, 20:41:55 »

I'd never heard of Virtual Battlespace. Is the AI in that any better than in OFP[1]?

- Jimpy

There is a newer version of OFP. Not just a expansion pack, it utilises a refined engine. It's called VBS, the followup of OFP. Designed for militairy use, it is now also availible for commercial users.

For as I have heard from a friend I know who has VBS the AI is better than in OFP, but not above standards.
« Last Edit: 08 Jan 2005, 20:42:49 by DEAD RABBIT »

Dubieman

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Re:AI Advancements?
« Reply #10 on: 09 Jan 2005, 00:55:23 »
Two comments here:

1.) On arty in OFP, its a nice addition to the mission and all but when its only your squad & two other squads, in OFP, it just doesn't seem needed. Plus with the regular BIS infantry being so accurate, and firefights non existant(5 shots for 5 soldiers) that the arty isn't really neccasary.

Then if you figure in the small amounts of enemies, the mission wouldn't really need to be fought, if there was a Howizter at the base, just fire some shells and mission accomplished. Personally I like getting down and dirty in a firefight. Only with HD weapons, like JAM or playing with the Sebnam pack. So, that's really why I don't put arty in my missions, the only other reason would be that the storyline cancels out the arty. (Like some of the missions I've made, they don't require it)

2.)About cover, if there was a way to use a get under cover button/action or stay at a corner and use your left & right arrows to lean out from behind a corner to shoot, like in an animation, that would be really, well, cool. Then to make AI use it, wow. :o :P