Mplayer Map Filename Convention

[Terox]

I may be speaking out of line here, but as a mission maker, i can certainly make some educated guesses

1) As far as i am aware, any c&h map, is not a creation of any individual, merely a revamped version of a map made by Tactician

So C&H actually belongs to tactician

CTF, these could be made from a BIS Template, but probably more likely to be made from a version of Karillions CTF or somebody elses

Vehicle respawns, how many of you use somebody elses respawn script ?

Reload Guy,Ammocrate.sqs  etc etc god knows how many more scripts created by gifted scripters we use

So all this "My Map, my creation" i find quite hipocritical

They are basically copies of somebody elses idea, with slight changes of flag positions etc


Nobody profits from this, so why all the commotion


WE Aren't telling anybody that they must do anything.

With hindsight, we could have come in with a better approach, warranted however not many of us are gifted with crystal balls.

The convention is implemented on a number of servers,
map names have been changed

This cant be undone, as, speaking for the server i work on, we didnt make backup copies

So the damage is already done, water under the bridge.

There is now a sytem in place, as i previously posted, for you to post the names of your maps (If its really that important to you) which we can then delete from our servers.

I really have nothing more to say about it.

Seems folks are making a mountain out of a molehill,   discussing ethics and law rather than practicalities

I am an engineer by trade
I work on a practical level and normally have the job done while the beurocrats are still discussing whether to have tea or coffee

Jobs done, end of shift for me ;D

[Sefe]

Ideas are not protected. However, the implementation of the idea is protected. So you're simply missing the point. Nice attempt, but, I'm sorry that doesn't help you out of your responsibility.

And as for not being able to change the names back, that's your problem. If you want my advise (I'm sure you'll ignore it but I'm a nice guy and so I'll give you the advise anyway): If the briefing contains information about the author, contact him and ask him for his permission. For all other missions, try to track back who has made it and contact them, too. If you fail to track back the author or the author denies the permission, take the mission from the server, download it again and add it to your server without changing the mission name. Then try to contact the author and ask him for his permission. If the author doesn't give you his permission, decide if you want to keep the mission on the server or if you want to take it down.

I know there is a lot of work involved but I think the mission makers deserve it. And you don't have any other options except the one to be a software pirate.

[Chris Death]

Oh well, you don't seem to understand that it's your
job to ask for changing anything not made by you,
instead of the author asking you not to change it.

As Joltan posted in here: the author needs to inform
you that he doesn't want his work to be changed -
that's not true

You have to ask him for permission.

What if somebody decides to change all the server
names (because he might have a clue how to), for the
reason: it's easier to find the decent servers out of the
list, without asking the server owners.
hmm it's just a servername, who could care about that
And then he would say: every owner of a server who doesn't
like that should post his server here or there, but don't
expect the old servername to be back because i haven't
made backups of the original server names.

I know this example goes way deeper than renaming
a mission file, but in general it's the same.


Now to those CTF and C&H or scripts being used in missions

In most of the cases, a script author adds some lines to his
script (or by a readme), that it can be used in other's
missions, as long as it won't be sold as the new creator's
work. Or if, then the author shall be informed.

Those remade CTF or C&H missions mentioned by Joltan above,
may be pre-done by someone else, or may not.
In no case this gives anybody else the right to change it.

You are not allowed to do "Selbstjustiz" (selfjustice??).
I mean: you do not have the right to do something illegal to
someone else, just because he did.

One more interesting thing i found:

Joltan you were posting a link to your Server List where i
found renamed BIS missions (hell i really don't want to speak
for BIS now, it's not up to me).

..BUT - if this renaming procedure was done the same way
like Terox wrote above (without keeping original backups),
then this may lead into troubles when installing the next
patch. Remember BIS is always doing some updates on older
missions, and if the original mission isn't present anymore,
the patch might not be installed succesfull.

e.g: co 07 oil war.eden
        co 09 return to eden.eden

Again and one last time i say: if somebody would ask
me to rename a mission of mine for reason that makes
sense - :note: the filename convention makes sense -
then i would prompt answer with YES.
If somebody would do it without asking me, i'd really be
bothered (*sends out his Fox Terrier and shouts: "go for
his balls*) - sorry if that last word was too heavy - couldn't resist  ;D

~S~ CD

[sseagle]

This is why OFPEC has gone downhill, the worthless arguments about legal BULLSHIT that no one that lives outside of Germany applies to.  Just attempt to properly document your maps WITH A WORKING EMAIL ADDRESS.  If you cannot be contacted, then I say your map is public domain.  I can make the exact same beachhead mission that has been made before, and that isn't breaching any laws.  NONE OF YOU HAVE (LEGALLY) COPYRIGHTED ANY OF YOUR MISSIONS, and further more, they are all technically property of the makers/publishers of the game, due to your use of THEIR software and editing tools.

[Sefe]

NONE OF YOU HAVE (LEGALLY) COPYRIGHTED ANY OF YOUR MISSIONS

You're wrong. Everywhere in the world you have the copyright on all of your works. You don't need to "copyright" it. And as I said, this isn't just "legal shit". What you're doing is seriously damaging the trust of the mission makers in the integrity of their mission. The idea that's behind copyright protection is that no-one would publish or even create his works if he can't be sure that no-one can just rip off his work. By simply ignoring the mission author's copyright you'll seriously damage your reputation as server admins which can't be in your interest.

The rest of your post is so extraordinarily stupid that I won't comment it. It's wrong in literally each and every sentence (no kidding I've checked it). I suggest to inform yourself before claiming some expertise you don't have.

[Noon416]

Terox & Joltan,

Read back through what you've posted .... you almost had it right there, and then you moved away again.

Joltan, you stated in reference to the server he assists with:
"It has always been our policy that everyone submitting a mission would know that we have to rename them - be it the mission maker or whoever. And we never accept a mission if we can't."

BINGO!![/color]

This is the point we've been trying to make, and I'm surprised it was so easily missed.

In my examples where I compared the OFPEC TAG system with the Convention, that was the point I was clarifying.

Put simply, if the Convention can have that single sentence added (or one to that effect), you wouldn't have had to have gone through this entire "discussion" to have people accept the convention in the spirit it was intended.

Hopefully, with this revelation and simple resolution, we can all resolve and put this discussion to bed.

[joltan]

I know this example goes way deeper than renaming a mission file, but in general it's the same.

You know this example is not relevant as first it would be more like changing the name of the mission (as defined in the mission.sqm), not the filename, and second there is no way to do that.

Those remade CTF or C&H missions mentioned by Joltan above

Mentioned by Terox - get your quotes right, I'm not the only one participating in this discussion. I think if you use a mission/script/function/whatever by some other author in one of your missions you should credit him in your notes, just putting it in there is not really the way to do it.

Joltan you were posting a link to your Server List where i
found renamed BIS missions (hell i really don't want to speak
for BIS now, it's not up to me).
..BUT - if this renaming procedure was done the same way
like Terox wrote above (without keeping original backups),
then this may lead into troubles when installing the next
patch.

No, there is no trouble, as we are running a linux server and thus are not doing any patches directly on the server. We are forced to patch a clean Win32 install locally and then copy the updated files to the server. Also all missions have to be renamed anyways, as the server will not accept any mission containing uppercase chars (converting to lowercase is renaming, too - and might change some mission names illegible - like "BlackOpHALO" to "blackophalo" - very nice, better change it to "blackop halo" then).

[Sefe]

Also all missions have to be renamed anyways, as the server will not accept any mission containing uppercase chars (converting to lowercase is renaming, too - and might change some mission names illegible - like "BlackOpHALO" to "blackophalo" - very nice, better change it to "blackop halo" then).

As long as renaming is dictated by unavoidable technical requirements, no-one can really say anything against renaming. But that ends exactly at the point where you put in your own "creativity". So converting names to lower case is ok. Any other changes (and if it's only to make it 'sound' or 'look' better) require the consent of the autor.

[Sui]

Awww Gawd, this is just getting worse and worse ;D

Terox, as an engineer would you start building a project without getting permits and resource consents?
Of course not! What would happen if you did? This situation is the same sort of thing... the attitude:

"Well no one complained when I started doing it, so I assume everyone is all right with it"

Would get you into court faster than you can say Environmental lawsuit...
Is just simply ignorant and arrogant.

Look, there is simply no threat of any sort of legal action here. It's about attitude and respect. You are disrespecting others rights, and have the arrogance to know you're doing this but to decide you have the right to do so.
I use strong language because I feel it requires strong language... you're not just disrespecting people here, you are pissing on their work!

Your line about "this isn't the only OFPEC forum in the world" highlights another point I would like to make... Neither are the official forums. To get a discussion thread in one forum going and feel the you've consulted the whole community is ludicrus! Have some common sense! Of course you haven't talked to everybody! The only way to talk to everybody is to message all mission makers involved and say "Is it ok to change your file name?"
It would not be such a big deal... it's just you don't want to do it. 200 template emails... how hard is that?

Bottom Line: You can get away with this with out any real percussions... but I would appeal to your decency and your common sense here. You have two options:

• Keep disrespecting map makers rights
• Do a little bit of leg work and have no one pissed off at you

How hard a call is that? Not very I would have thought.

All you need to do is find details for maps you're not sure about (a search on some map sites should pull up the author's name) and send them a template email.
I guarantee 99% of responses will be "Sure, go ahead and change it".

Anyway, this is getting to be a very circular discussion... if we don't see some resolution soon I'm going to lock this thread, as it is getting polarised and pointless ;)

[Sefe]

I noticed a sligth confusion so it's time to clear some things up.

1. When you modify another one's mission, you have the copyright on the changes (provided they are substantial), while the original author still keeps his copyright on the mission (which is the reason that the editor of the mission needs the permission of the creator to publish it).

2. When  you use tools that create files (like the OFP mission editor), the proprietor of the tool indeed has a copyright on the created files. However you have a copyright on the files, too. This has the practical consequnce that you can decide if you want to publish the mission, allow changes etc. But also the proprietor of the tool has those rights. According to the license agreement, BIS has allowed you to publish your mission for non-commercial purposes. Hence, selling your missions would infringe BIS' copyright. But as long as you are publishing your missions for free, you can decide who is allowed to do what with them. On the other hand, BIS can't just take your missions and publish them because you also have a copyright on them. And if you create your mission files with a text editor or a self-created tool, that's another story...

[Noon416]

Did you all just not see what I posted?

[/b]

Either read my last post, or see the summary below...

1. Joltan posted that

"It has always been our policy that everyone submitting a mission would know that we have to rename them - be it the mission maker or whoever. And we never accept a mission if we can't."

2. This means that we have a solution to this whole argument, a solution that has been there from the start.

THE SOLUTION TO THIS WHOLE DISCUSSION

Add a sentence to the Convention, that states "Servers have to make acknowledgement of this Convention a pre-condition for submission".[/size] Then you just have to make adhering to the convention a pre-requisite for submitting a mission to your server

Just like OFPEC's successful TAG system.

For feck's sake people, don't trash three months of hard work for the sake of your ego.
The solution is staring you in the face...[/b]








And yes, I felt it necessary to make it unnecessarily large and colourful, as the solution has been missed twice now, due to endentured viewpoints.

[joltan]

For feck's sake people, don't trash three months of hard work for the sake of your ego.
The solution is staring you in the face...

Thank god finally someone read that.

Our messages must have crossed - as I read your previous post only now, long after I posted my response.  I only entered this thread after Sefe started with his legal stuff, acting like he was in court, fighting for the life of his client. I tried to explain how we handle stuff, and I never said, no we will not ask for permission - I rather explained that we are not always able to and therefore request anyone submitting a mission to accept our naming scheme.

I hope this is settled now, and we can return to talk with each other as normal people without further resorting to insults and arrogant behaviour (yes, that includes myself - sorry, but I can be short tempered, too).

[Shrike_Z]

Ok, this is too freakin hilarious.

Who was forcing anybody anyway? Who gave "orders" instead of asking nicely? Who did not give the ample possibility to voice opinions? Jeez...

However, I've contacted all the mission makers providing maps for my server. Most were just giggling about my request and said "sure, do whatever you want"
Non-responders will get their maps deleted as will  those of mission makers who oppose a name change. I wish them luck in hosting their hard work on their home DSL line or on the countless non-organized and therefore empty dedicated servers.

Note to admins: Please delete my account on OFPEC.
Shrike out.

PS: Sefe, I am German and a lawyer, too. I see and understand your approach from a legal point of view however I fail to understand your motivation. Can you say "typisch deutscher Spiesser"?

[Sefe]

I only entered this thread after Sefe started with his legal stuff, acting like he was in court, fighting for the life of his client. I tried to explain how we handle stuff, and I never said, no we will not ask for permission - I rather explained that we are not always able to and therefore request anyone submitting a mission to accept our naming scheme.

Don't you get it? It's not about about law. All we are asking for is

RESPECT

What you are doing is arrogantly ignoring

OTHER ONE'S PROPERTY

What about stepping down from your high horse and realize that you're an the best way to kill the cow you're milking. Treat the mission makers with the respect and you'll earn respect in return. Tell them "Fuck off and fuck your property, we're doing what we want because your property has only a worth for us to keep our servers running. Now shut off and let us do what we want with your property." and you'll reveal what kind of egocentric person you are. At least you can't expect respect when you lack the respect for other one's work.

[Sefe]

PS: Sefe, I am German and a lawyer, too. I see and understand your approach from a legal point of view however I fail to understand your motivation. Can you say "typisch deutscher Spiesser"?

LMAO

Another person who knows me so well.

Feel free to delete your OFPEC account yourself.