Author Topic: Copyright - Addon Makers Be Aware (Read 7631 times)

Colonel_Klink · « **on:** 06 Jan 2003, 08:45:06 »

Ok just thought I'd bring this to all addon maker's attention.
Today I received an email from the CEO of the company that manufactures the real Tiger Gunboat. It was about the use of copywritten material about their product. At first I though 'oh s***', lawsuits, imprisonment and tons of other things. I explained my position and how the use of material was not intended to breach copywrite and the gunboats were created because I liked the concept.
His reply was positive, and I now have pemission to post what I like about the Tigers. He also has become quite interested in the OFP game as well. And is willing to provide me with more technical information about his product which could be implemented in the addon.

That is good news for me, but it gave me a wake up call on the possibility of legal action if we don't seek permission to use material.. I think that is the reason why BIS didn't make the BMW? Aston Martin? (correct me if I am wrong). I can't imagine Boeing, Ford, or the US Armed Forces suing.. but you never know.

So expect a newer version of the Tiger soon with more features. Cheers
Bob

asmodeus · « **Reply #1 on:** 06 Jan 2003, 09:58:07 »

THat's interesting...

Thanks for the heads up!

My question is... How can they sue you if you aren't making money off of it??

Asmo

KTottE · « **Reply #2 on:** 06 Jan 2003, 10:50:54 »

You don't have to sell something for it to be a breach of copyright.

Gastovski · « **Reply #3 on:** 06 Jan 2003, 15:45:01 »

hmmm... well recently i have seen people making addons without the original consent of the people who made the models... Then having the cheek to say they made em, thats what I would define as suable...

Sefe · « **Reply #4 on:** 06 Jan 2003, 18:54:30 »

Brands like BMW, Aston Martin etc. are not touched by copyright law. They are subject to trademark law (which like the copyright law belogs to intellectual property law). The same applies for models, eg. the exterior of cars. They can either be trademarks or so-called design patents. As soon as you try to earn some money using trademarks or design patents without the consent of the owner (which may include a license fee), you violate intellectual property law. As far as trademark law is concerned, it usually covers the commercial use of trademarks. For non-commercial use, trademark law is less applicable which means that you have more options for non-commercial use than for commercial use, while trademark law still does apply.

Tomb · « **Reply #5 on:** 06 Jan 2003, 19:18:11 »

sheesh, you are SÃ- wise seffy!

(I mean it ;D )

anyways, cheers k(l)inky

neat info, m8

Now I just sit & wonder if I will get my ass burned by 1200 tatto studios within a few weeks

icarus_uk · « **Reply #6 on:** 06 Jan 2003, 19:31:32 »

While Sefe is very true, its doesnt mean a company cant still royally spank you for using their material, even though you arent making any money.

KTottE · « **Reply #7 on:** 06 Jan 2003, 19:38:53 »

If there are no legal grounds for them to give you a royal spanking, they can't do it.

icarus_uk · « **Reply #8 on:** 06 Jan 2003, 19:50:39 »

Im saying they CAN give you a legal spanking, because they DO have legal grounds to give you a spanking!

Ive seen lots of "modders" work been stopped because of coparate intervention. A SWAT3 mission called "Nakatomi Plaza" was ordered to be removed from hosts by Warner Brothers because it was based on the Die Hard film. Coka -a Cola ordered another map be removed because it was based in a Coke warehouse.

You dont need to be making a profit from somthing for you to be breaking the law! And yes, you are breaking the law!

dmakatra · « **Reply #9 on:** 06 Jan 2003, 21:01:01 »

That sux! You ainÂ't hurting anybody, itÂ's more like some kind of commercial. Companies pay sometimes to get their name in an product (like movies).

Heck! They should GIVE you (and hopefully me soon) money for this!

And who cares if you are building an addon with a new modern war boat for example? ItÂ's just another dumb and stupid reason to earn money by suing! Like that guy in McDonalds once! He burnt his finger on his hot drink (I donÂ't know how to spell, but I think itÂ's cofee) and he sued MCdonalds for millions of dollars! Totally sick!

Sefe · « **Reply #10 on:** 07 Jan 2003, 01:04:33 »

Quote from: [icarus_uk] on 06 Jan 2003, 19:50:39

You dont need to be making a profit from somthing for you to be breaking the law! And yes, you are breaking the law!

The law is too complex to give easy answers like this. In it's generality, this statement is simply wrong. I can only warn you to take some isolated cases and turn them into a general rule. Each case is different and until you don't know the full details, you simply can't turn it into a leading case for all other cases that look slightly similar. Sometimes a tiny difference can make a case turn out the opposite way.

And, by the way, icarus, have you actually read the pertinent prescriptions? Or what makes you so sure that you break the law? No lawyer would tell you that you'd break the law without a) having enough information about the circumstances and b) either knowing the law or having researched it.

icarus_uk · « **Reply #11 on:** 07 Jan 2003, 02:03:01 »

This isnt exactly the first time a question of copyrite has come up.

http://www.google.com/search?num=50&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&newwindow=1&safe=off&q=%22understanding+copyright%22&spell=1

My suggestion is that you read up. Like I did.

dmakatra · « **Reply #12 on:** 07 Jan 2003, 11:23:54 »

Ehm, ur link worked perfect icarus

Skaven · « **Reply #13 on:** 07 Jan 2003, 11:32:27 »

I don't know much about the LAW, specially not as much as Sefe does, but I see no wrong in making addons, after all we give them publicity and that shouldn't be bad.

Also a lot of addon makers are less than 18 years old, the chances of a large enterprise to be acusing an addon maker for making models for public use are very small if any, I wound't worry much about it, also it will be hard for them to know who we are or where we are so that also will make it difficult and than again each country as it's own LAW so don't tell me an American eneterprise is gonna acuse an 16 years old Chinese kid for making models to play with them and share it with some thousands.

It's possible yes, it happend to Colonel but it's a singular case in millinos so I wouldn't worry much about it guys

dmakatra · « **Reply #14 on:** 07 Jan 2003, 11:35:32 »

Puh! I have two saftey lines now:

1st, IÂ've got 6 years before I can get caught (yes, yes, shut up, I know, I am a baby in yer eyes!).

2nd, I live in Sweden.

Sefe · « **Reply #15 on:** 07 Jan 2003, 14:24:30 »

Quote from: [icarus_uk] on 07 Jan 2003, 02:03:01

This isnt exactly the first time a question of copyrite has come up.

http://www.google.com/search?num=50&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&newwindow=1&safe=off&q=%22understanding+copyright%22&spell=1

My suggestion is that you read up. Like I did.

Icarus, thank you for your private lessons in copyright law (which, as I said, doesn't apply for brands). Of course I can't compete with your expertise in this matter. Damn, why did I study law (including the junior lawyership) for 7 1/2 years when everything is so easy?

Tomb · « **Reply #16 on:** 07 Jan 2003, 14:30:05 »

L .... O .... L .....

Sefe · « **Reply #17 on:** 07 Jan 2003, 14:30:11 »

Quote from: The real Armstrong on 07 Jan 2003, 11:35:32

Puh! I have two saftey lines now:

1st, IÂ've got 6 years before I can get caught (yes, yes, shut up, I know, I am a baby in yer eyes!).

2nd, I live in Sweden.

You're wrong.

a) Intellectual proterty law is not part of the criminal law but part of the civil law. Anyone (including a minor who can be represented by his parents) is subject to civil law. Even if you can't be convicted, you can be held liable under certain circumstances. And prohibitory action can be taken against you.

b) Sweden has copyright/trademark etc. laws, too. They are even subject to European harmonization and international IP law treaties.

dmakatra · « **Reply #18 on:** 07 Jan 2003, 14:59:35 »

yeah, yeah, take it easy! I was just kiddin!

Messiah · « **Reply #19 on:** 08 Jan 2003, 01:59:43 »

Quote from: Sefe on 07 Jan 2003, 14:24:30

Icarus, thank you for your private lessons in copyright law (which, as I said, doesn't apply for brands). Of course I can't compete with your expertise in this matter. d**n, why did I study law (including the junior lawyership) for 7 1/2 years when everything is so easy?

R...O...F...L...M...A...O...

Sui · « **Reply #20 on:** 09 Jan 2003, 02:50:10 »

Careful guys... around here Sefe is The LAWyer

If you're going to combine the realms of copyright law, interlectual property law and international law (due to the nature of the internet) I wouldn't recommend sticking to any golden rules... they change depending on where you see the sun come up I'd imagine...

KTottE · « **Reply #21 on:** 09 Jan 2003, 23:08:43 »

Well, like Sui says, you shouldn't mix these laws together.
There are copyright laws, there are trademark laws, there are intellectual property laws (under which copyright, trademark and patent laws fall), then each country have their own instance of these laws, and then there's an international law/standard, and then there's the question of internet, which in it's ways is lawless.

And, like Sefe says, do not, ever, ever, ever, ever *108 make generalizations based on individual cases.
Even if 99 out of a 100 cases end the same way, you can't make that generalization, because there will always be that last 1 that doesn't fit in with the rest.

Oh, and Coca Cola had no -real- legal grounds to stop that map. What they can argue though, is that their trademark is put in a compromising position and that it reflects poorly over them. If a supreme court or equivalent believes them, they will rule in their favour. But unless you are earning money from it (which is a clear violation of trademark laws) Coca Cola cannot sue you/force you to stop with anything just like that.

Unless, Coca Cola has registered their trademark as a trademark in computer game levels as well, they could not order anyone to stop distributing/create a map that takes place in their warehouse.
I bet most of you, apart from Sefe, didn't know that.
You have to register a trademark for each and every market you wish to sell your product.
If Coca Cola hasn't registered Coca Cola as a trademark for, let's say, washing machines, I can register a washing machine under the name Coca Cola and so on and so forth.

uiox · « **Reply #22 on:** 10 Jan 2003, 00:46:19 »

<--------------

dmakatra · « **Reply #23 on:** 10 Jan 2003, 09:08:14 »

Wait a minuite! If I ask a company to addon their product, their just gonna laugh and say "why do you spam our mail with this sh!t?". But if I addon their product after IÂ've asked them, and it became a hit so allmost all OFPECers downloads it, then the company comes and sue me for using their product without their permission!

You c what I mean? I donÂ't think, letÂ's say the coca-cola company even awnser to this Q via the mail:

Hi! IÂ'm a 12 year old boy and IÂ'm playing a game called OFP. Now, beside the game, there is some tools that you can make either missions or a thing called AddOns. ThatÂ's why I wanted to contact you, cause you have copyright, and I ask for yer permission to do a coca-cola machine. Is that OK?

I really doubt that theyÂ'll even awnser to this...

Colonel_Klink · « **Reply #24 on:** 10 Jan 2003, 09:23:07 »

I guess we could argue and surmise over this issue with no resolution in sight.. The bottom line is: If in doubt seek permission.

We should remember that if we designed something new and were marketing it as a product, we would want to protect our interest. And a point to remember, it doesn't matter whether or not there is a breach of copyright.. if they have the money and the lawyers.. then they have a better chance of finding loopholes.

I guess it comes down to an issue of how far a company would go. i dare say that most wouldn't.. but then you never know.

As it has turned out the CEO of the company has sent me an email of support and is going to supply additional information and specifications.

Sefe · « **Reply #25 on:** 10 Jan 2003, 13:28:04 »

Quote from: KTottE on 09 Jan 2003, 23:08:43

You have to register a trademark for each and every market you wish to sell your product.
If Coca Cola hasn't registered Coca Cola as a trademark for, let's say, washing machines, I can register a washing machine under the name Coca Cola and so on and so forth.

That's not exactly true. The rule is that trademarks only apply for the registered product category. But the exception is that if a trademark is known widely enough (and Coca Cola is considered to be the best known and most valuable trademark in the world - it's estimated to be worth 100 billion $), you are not allowed to use it for any product. If you'd name your washing machine Coca Cola, Coca Cola could sue the shit out of you (at least in the EU).

While I don't really comment the named case about Coca Cola (I don't know the full facts), I also doubt that there actually was a court trial in that case. If you'd run a site in your spare time and you would recieve a letter from Coca Cola's lawyer, threatening to sue you, would you risk a trial? And as long as you don't have a final court decision you can't say that Coca Cola is right or wrong.

But we're drifting away, this thread turns into a general legal discussion.

dmakatra · « **Reply #26 on:** 10 Jan 2003, 19:24:59 »

but if everyone seeks permission to, lets say coca cola, theyÂ'll sue us for spamming their mail!

But if you do that, youÂ've to be pretty sick! But hey, if someone sues a microwave company for the reason "There was no warning sign that you shouldnÂ't dry your cat in the microwave" and you do it, itÂ's a proof people really are that sick!

Red7 · « **Reply #27 on:** 21 Jan 2003, 17:23:24 »

Quote

It's possible yes, it happend to Colonel but it's a singular case in millinos so I wouldn't worry much about it guys

I've seen alot more of these cases for other mods/skins etc. Like Fox Interactive threatened to sue a skinner that made a USCM skin convertion for Natural Selection, and EA was playing around with the idea of taking legal action because someone made a skin with textures ripped from MOH:AA.

Alot of smaller companies are very protective of their work as well. I've seen other cases, but they where a long time ago and I can't remember the details.

dmakatra · « **Reply #28 on:** 21 Jan 2003, 21:10:54 »

Like I said, it doesnÂ't hurt anyone, who cares if thereÂ's a MOHAA skin in OFP? Besides, itÂ's WW2, itÂ's history, itÂ's public, EA doesnÂ't have the right to sue some1 for that skin. TheyÂ're just after the money.

Noon416 · « **Reply #29 on:** 21 Jan 2003, 22:47:08 »

Whether there is a legal base to their requests or not, I think the best solution when approached is simply...

Be polite
Be respectful
And ask nicely

As Colonel_Klink points out...

Quote

I explained my position and how the use of material was not intended to breach copywrite and the gunboats were created because I liked the concept.
His reply was positive

...and...

Quote

And a point to remember, it doesn't matter whether or not there is a breach of copyright.. if they have the money and the lawyers.. then they have a better chance of finding loopholes.

The situation is not whether they have any right to stop you, but simply that they have a mountain of money to throw at the courts if they don't like your response. Individuals don't.

So the best approach is simply be respectful of their concerns and address those concerns in a constructive manner, and you'll increase the chances of getting a favourable response.

Telling them to "F**k off, you can't do anything as I'm too young, you have no right, etc" is only going to draw a legal response, something that anyone can tell you is going to bankrupt you quicker than you can blink.

Just my 2.12 cents (inflation adjusted).

Messiah · « **Reply #30 on:** 21 Jan 2003, 23:01:01 »

ive got a 3.56 cents comment (inflation + exchange rates)

i once made a mission using some music from Moby - now, of course this music is copyright, but i emailed mute records with a request that i may use the music - it was a small selection of the track, and had been modified...

i said full credit would of course been given and i also mentioned how moby was a god

they agreed to let me use the music - u see, it never hurts to ask

Sefe · « **Reply #31 on:** 22 Jan 2003, 21:36:40 »

Quote from: The real Armstrong on 21 Jan 2003, 21:10:54

Like I said, it doesnÂ't hurt anyone, who cares if thereÂ's a MOHAA skin in OFP?

It would hurt the ones who created the skins. Those skins are commercial goods. Someone had to pay the guys (and gals) who make those skins. I'd be pissed off too if someone would rip of my work or the work I have invested my money in. What I don't understand is that people would instantly agree that it would be stealing if it would a painting, a sculpture etc., but not if it's it's digital counterpart. The only difference is that one can be copied with a few mouse clicks and for the other one you need a burglar's exam...

Quote from: The real Armstrong on 21 Jan 2003, 21:10:54

EA doesnÂ't have the right to sue some1 for that skin. TheyÂ're just after the money.

They sure as hell have any right in the world to sue anyone who uses those skins without their permission. And what's so wrong that they are after the money? It's a business. They have invested money in creating the textures, so they have any right to make money with them. Not only you, also EA and it's employees have bills to pay. If anyone would be allowed to use their protected material, they could close their business tomorrow.

Noon416 · « **Reply #32 on:** 22 Jan 2003, 23:27:38 »

To add to Sefe's wisdom...

It's also covered by the EULA (End User Licence Agreement) you agree to when you install the gaming (or other) software.

I can't look one up at the moment to get the exact wording

But basically, taking the skin/model/texture out of a game for use elsewhere would be classed either under reverse engineering, disassembly, or one of the other restrictions listed in that sentence.

And because you have to accept the agreement (ie: you have to consciously click to get past it), it becomes legally binding like any other contract you put your signature to.

So I would say (personal opinion only here) that they would have a very strong case in the situation described above.

Fishion · « **Reply #33 on:** 23 Jan 2003, 20:46:12 »

to add my 3.82 cents (inflation + excange rates + tax adjusted)

I think if you talk to them politely you can convice them,
that
a) if you have to pull back your work (after releasing a BETA mostly) it makes for real bad publicity for the said company
b) it makes for good publicity if you do that with their support. I mean let's take the Coca Cola Map example.
Who is going to play that map? Right people who like the
game, and they'd think "wow cool Coca Cola supports us games...they like us" (of course a couch potato drinks more coke...). And usually it should be very controvercial
c) There is a small "dent" in the way the legal system works. They can only sue/ask/whatever a few single persons. IMO eventually someone will make the addon, and if it is out in the public, it's kinda hard to stop it again. (Yes you could aks each and every site not to host it...but that's like illegal copies of musik isn't it?).
I'm not saying that's the way it should be done, no but
even compaies should be aware of this, and the reaction
by the OFP community. So most likely we'll such an addon, even if it is out of protest.

-Fishion

dmakatra · « **Reply #34 on:** 24 Jan 2003, 08:17:18 »

Just one Q to sefe cause he seem to know so much about this copyright law.

If I made a letÂ's say coca-cola can and I didnÂ't know coca-cola excist, can they sue me then?

Sefe · « **Reply #35 on:** 24 Jan 2003, 12:42:14 »

KTottE · « **Reply #36 on:** 24 Jan 2003, 13:05:03 »

It's actually your legal obligation to find out what you can and can't do Armstrong. It's the same with laws in foreign countries. If I go to germany or USA, I can't say "Well gee officer, I didn't know your laws because I'm from Sweden", you have to find out what goes and what doesn't.

But in the words of Sefe:

Yes

Sefe · « **Reply #37 on:** 24 Jan 2003, 21:05:23 »

It's not actually an obligation. No-one can force you to inform yourself about the legal situation. But if you don't, everything you do goes to your own risk. Ie.: the law applies to everyone, wether they know it or not (with very, very few exceptions). Once you have a claim against someone else you'll be thankful for that.

But we're drifting away again...

Tomb · « **Reply #38 on:** 25 Jan 2003, 19:50:35 »

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.... (*sleeps*)

cpt.Hawkeyez · « **Reply #39 on:** 27 Jan 2003, 06:12:49 »

Three words: The system Sux! Every single CEO is exactly the same all they are interested in is making money except for a select few who are really interested in quality and satisfaction. Anyways good job OFPEC keep up the good work. Also a shoutout to all the addon makers. some of you are better than BIS thats why one day game publishers will make a engine and just give total freedom to the users to add stuff make stuff all the game company would have to do is moderate stuff added. wellg etting off topic. great site great people keep up the awesome work.

Sefe · « **Reply #40 on:** 27 Jan 2003, 14:22:10 »

If they wouldn't make any money with their games, there would be none...

ebud · « **Reply #41 on:** 28 Jan 2003, 01:07:38 »

Let's try this as a question.

A company freely allows parts of it's game, such as textures, to be edited and redistributed for mods for the main game... Ghost Recon for instance. Now if a person used those files for another game, then that would be illegal. How and why? They are freely distributed for modding purposes, who's to say how they are modded?

There was a mod recently distributed for Ghost Recon that used Unreal characters. Silly in my opinion, but it was made and distributed quite publicly. Now I'm safe to assume that this would be a case where the modder and hosts for the mod could be sued. Is this correct? Even if the models and textures were made available for modding by the parent company?

Just wondering.

Ebud

Sefe · « **Reply #42 on:** 28 Jan 2003, 13:37:31 »

It depends on the license agreement.

The owner of the intellectual proeperty can decide who is allowed to do what with his property. This is the same as for any non-intellectual property. If someone would take your car and drive around the block, this surely wouldn't hurt you. Or what if he'd just get in and out again? Would that hurt you? Still you can forbid that someone to do it. Simply because your car is your property and you can do everything you want with it. You can smash it, burn it or do something even more senseless with it. It's your property. I don't think anyone of you would consider that to be unfair.

So why do so many people consider it unfair that the owner of intellectual property (which can be much more valuable than any non-intellectual property) can do what he wants with what belongs to him? The owner of some textures can lock them on his hard drive, he can even delete them. You should be rather thankful that he lets you use them. So don't ever complain that he limits the use.

To come back to the question. Unlike Noon said, the EULA doesn't forbid anything. If the EULA would be the foundation of the right to sue you, you couldn't sue software pirates because they never signed the EULA. The rule is that (with a few exceptions) you aren't allowed to do anything with the subject of the EULA (ie. the protected material that is licensed to the licensee). The EULA allows you to do certain things with the protected material. So the named mod could be sued if using the textures for another game wouldn't be covered by the EULA.

And as for that certain case: Do you think anyone who makes his material available for modification intends that they are used for a competiting game? It's simply not the same if you modify the game the textures are from than to use the textures in another game. Just imagine this case: Two games, game A with excellent graphics but rather poor gameplay and game B with mediocre graphics but a new ground braking gameplay. The makers of game A are generous enought to allow mods to use the in-game textures. Some smartass mod makers then think they could use the textures for game B and then advertise "the gameplay of game B with the textures of game A". Why should anyone play game A again when game B has the same graphics but with a better gameplay? When the makers of game A opened the textures for the mod makers, they inteded to improve their game and make it more attractive, not to make another game so attractive that you wouldn't play (or buy) the own product anymore. To me, this makes perfect sense.

ebud · « **Reply #43 on:** 28 Jan 2003, 16:53:01 »

Thanks for you insight Sefe.

Author Topic: Copyright - Addon Makers Be Aware (Read 7631 times)

asmodeus

Skaven

Red7

Fishion

cpt.Hawkeyez

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