Music Licensing/restrictions

[john_clark]

I am not really sure where to put this, but does anyone know if thee are any restrictions on the music that can be used for missions?

[nominesine]

In theory, yes, there are legal limitations.

In practice, no, thereÂ's no limit (reach for the sky).

[Killswitch]

There are definitely restrictions to distributing music, as you most likely know. Including music in OFP missions is no exception.

I would look into finding music covered by a suitable Creative Commons license, perhaps starting here.

[rado1265]

Hm, I have the intention to use the music from other game.  This could be a bit "dangerous", eh?

[rado1265]

No really, I have an issue here; I want to use the music from the other game in my mission.  The product is protected by EULA, but I have sometimes enough problems to understand plain English, not yet legal terms and language!  But as I can understand it, it says: don't tuch anything.

The game I have the intention to (ab)use is Freelancer from Microsoft (yes, I know! ).  I remember Charlie Howarth has used some of the music files from this game in his excellent Apache Assault, but since then he's wanished from OFP community.  Maybe Bill gets him  :gunman:

I really need an advice or opinion from some smarter than me regarding this; I don't want any legal problems because of it.  So, what do you think; use or not to use?

[456820]

all i know is that you are aloud a certain amount of time of one thing like a limit

you cant use any more the x number of seconds of a song if you go over this limit and dont pay then you can be sued but if you keep in the limit its fine

im not sure how long this limit is though

[bored_onion]

this question crops up now and again and the message from the mod team is usually that using music from another game in missions is BAD - unless you have permission, which is GOOD. the law is, im sure, very difficult to pin down on this. my advice would just be to be careful and try and gain some kind of permission. if not, royalty free music is always good.

i made a thread about this kind of stuff a while ago, which has a lot of this kind of discussion in it and may also be of some use in clarifying issues:

http://www.ofpec.com/yabbse/index.php?board=9;action=display;threadid=19330;start=0

[nominesine]

In real life I work for a quite large publishing company. We produce texts (itÂ's a news paper company) but the copyright laws are exactly the same as for music (and they are very similar through out the EU the USA and the rest of the western hemisphere).

This is how it works (simplified version)...

Music, text and pictures are created by someone, hence they are considered to be a form of "expression" and therefore they are to be protected in two ways.

1) If I write a text, then I own the rights of my expression (itÂ's a freedom of thougt thingy).

2) But since I work for a publishing company that paid me to write my text (i.e they gave me time and money to express myself) this company has copyrights to my text. That is, they controll the commercial value of the text as it was first published, but they are not allowed to change or modify the content (only I may do that).

Now letÂ's say, for sake of argument, that Karantan steals one of my texts and publishes it as part of the briefing in his mission. In theory I can then call an expensive lawyer and ask him to write a letter that ends with the phrase: "See you in court Karantan".

In court I would then claim that Karantan has damaged my reputation, by using my text (and hence my right to express myself freely) in a context that I never intended.

My publisher could also, in theory, make legal claims at the same time. He would claim that Karantan has made him lose money.

In theory Karantan could then be forced to give up most of what he has made, in money, from this theft and hand it over to me and my publisher. ThatÂ's it.

But, and this is the important part, It will never happen. The main reason is that IÂ'm not the only one who has a right to express myself. Karantans equally expensive lawyer would then claim that Karantan used my text as a paraphrase, to make a statement about the times we live in. I would lose that case. The only one that would benefit would be Karantans and my lawyers.

My publisher donÂ't give a single solitary f*ck about my right to express myself, but he does like money. And thatÂ's why he would never hire a lawyer to get Karantans OFP missions of the Internet. Unless, of course, Karantans mission became very, very famous and started to bring in large sums of money.

So, the reason I say it is safe is because no publisher in their right mind is ever going to leap into legal action against a bunch of teenagers playing computer games.

Post Scriptum: ... and to avoid misunderstandings, I think the copyright system is good. And if someone ever want's to use my texts, or scripts or whatever to make the OFP community a better place, feel free to do so. Rules and Windows are made to be broken and I promise I wont press charges. But please, please, please donÂ't use my texts in a way that make me look pro-american

 ;D

[bored_onion]

very nicely put and i agree - but it is easy to understand the position of the moderators

[Sui]

The official position of OFPEC:

As I stated in the thread that bored_onion linked to, if asked we have to remove material deemed to be in breach of copyright. As a non-profit (or negative profit, depending on which staff member you're talking to ;D) site, we simply don't have the resources to pursue any sort of legal action.

As to the wider question of whether you're safe or not posting copywritten music on 'the internet'... that's a stickier and much more complicated issue

[rado1265]

Thank you all for your replies.  My main concern was related, or directed to the violation of copyright laws and author rights, and to the unauthorised distribution of such material.  And as maybe we all know, the Microsoft Company knows no mercy regarding such things, so I will not take any risk, especially because I mess with the files.

Thanks again, guys, you've further opened my eyes, and help me to make a final decision, though I anticipated-feared such activity might be illegal.

Well*sigh*, it looks like I am-we are sticked to the OFP music regarding this matter.  But that not bothers me one bit.  Never did.

[456820]

so you would be able to get away if you extracted some sounds from a different game and used them in an ofp mission

oh and also what company will actually care enough to call a loyer over a few guys playing ofp with their sounds were not making any money and if we do bis have rights to sue us since i read somewhere we cannot sell anything used to create something from Bis ? (is that right)

[bored_onion]

you would indeed be on seriously dodgy ground if you tried to release a mission or expansion pack for OFP which brought in revenue without the permission of BIS.

as for using other games' sounds, i think its pretty clear from what Sui says that OFPEC will always remove missions when asked to for copyright reasons. as a mission editor, it's up to you to ensure that your mission isn't one of the ones which is pulled and this means using your intuition. certainly, it doesn't seem likely that a company would ever get too stressed over a few sounds (i think i'm right in saying that ECP 1.085 took some from Call of Duty - and they're really cool ) but in such circumstances OFPEC would always capitulate, as Sui has told us repeatedly.

[rado1265]

Hm, maybe is time for a second thouth ... Hell, that Apache Assault is still on the Missions Depot!  And not long ago I played the mission with Metallica in it!

Maybe I'll even try to ask for the permision ...

As they say in my country: the fear has big eyes (and pants full of shit - my adding).

[Dubieman]

When have you ever used a whole soundtrack?

I do plan to use some custom music in future missions, but I'm not using all 3:21 or 2:45 min of it. Generally good practice is to keep battle music down and most cutscenes are not 2 minutes long.

ECP 1.085 took some from Call of Duty

You'd be surprised at what other sounds are not specific to their games. Most notably, the sounds ripped from Doom and Doom2 are everywhere in our commercials.

[bored_onion]

You'd be surprised at what other sounds are not specific to their games

i did hear the flashpoint satchel charge detonation sound on a documentary about the formation of the earth once

[Sefe]

I really need an advice or opinion from some smarter than me regarding this; I don't want any legal problems because of it.  So, what do you think; use or not to use?

Simple question, simple answer: If you don't want any legal problems, don't use it.

Music, like every piece of art, is intellectual property, regardless of where it comes from (it is utterly unimportant whether it is commercial music or not). The right to use the track has to be explicitly granted to you, otherwise you have no permission to distribute the piece of music or any parts of it (there is no such thing as a time limit whatsoever). Full stop. You can be positive that for any computer game or commercially available piece of music this permission is not only not granted but explicitly denied.

A lot of nonsense is told about this subject by people who (obviously) don't have the slightest idea about the subject - yes, also (and especially) in this thread. This is like asking a construction worker for advice about a desease when you should be asking a doctor.

So, in a nutshell, from someone who knows better: If you want to be sure, ask for permission and do not use when the permission is not granted (which includes the case that you get no reply to your request).

[The-Architect]

Yep.

If you want it, use it but on your own head be it.

[bored_onion]

sounds right to me

[rado1265]

That's exsactly how I've thinked it is, Sefe.

If not, then theoretically speaking, I can also take some other parts from the game (on which developers have spend months or years, and couple of milions of dollars), and incorporate them into my mission or game or whatever.

And here we are: pure stealling ...

[Dubieman]

If not, then theoretically speaking, I can also take some other parts from the game (on which developers have spend months or years, and couple of milions of dollars), and incorporate them into my mission or game or whatever.

And here we are: pure stealling ...

What do you mean by that? Are we stealing from BIS by releasing missions or are you just talking about using third party stuff in OFP overall?

And my view: I'd like to go with the POV that I can and will use their stuff (music usually), but not full fledged songs since well, when does OFP ever seem right with whole songs ( unless its a nam aircav mission with ride of the valkeryes). And I will feel alright about it cause what producer or whomever really matters will be sifting through the Mission depot and pick up my mission, play it and say, uh that smug little bastard stole our music, time to sue! I'm sorry but I just don't see that happening.

Then there is the other side of me, that wants to keep this illegal use of music to a minimum and not get his pants sued off. But then I'm left with two options.

1.) my custom music (which sucks horribly considering I have no instruments

2.) the crappy seventh music which I've heard 5 billion times or some of the repetitive other tracks

Those of you will say its illegal, but when it comes to crunch time, hey its my decision. If it needs to be modified later, so be it.

Though I'm still conflicted so I have no idea what I may choose in the future. Hopefully that along with everyone else's POVs will help you(author) decide as well.

[rado1265]

It's like this, GRK: if I can take their music as I like, then I can also take the grafic engine from their game, legally there's no difference, and use him in making of my own PC game.  You know, what I mean?  I'm no legal expert, far from it, but I think we dont steal from BIS anything; shortly, we staying with OFP material within OFP boundaries.  Try use it elswhere without their explicit permission, and you'll probably expirience the reaction from BIS.

I have the same problems with 'two sides of me' regarding this, but I maded my mind; I don't want any problems, it's just not worthed, so I'll stick with Sefe's interpretation, because I think he knows what he's talking about.

[The-Architect]

Didn't some firm try and get Operation LoJack banned or something?

[456820]

its still in the depot i played it about a week ago what in it is actually copyright ?

[Sefe]

its still in the depot i played it about a week ago what in it is actually copyright ?

Afaik it wasn't about copyright, but trademark infringement. Trademarks are also intellectual property, so we're in the same ballpark (however, trademarks need to be registered, copyright doesn't).

[Dubieman]

karantan, I still don't know what you're talking about. I dunno if you're talking about OFP or something other than OFP...

Didn't some firm try and get Operation LoJack banned or something?

Isn't quite clever Toadlife would name his mission using the beeping system to find the officer after the very same system that does that for vehicles except its so the police can find it? Wow I just realized that...where have I been.

[rado1265]

Hm, I know my English sucks badly, but I thouth it was understandable.

As you may know, I had the intention to use some music files from the other game in my ofp mission, and after the discussion here some of us came to the conclusion, that this is illegal, and legally forbidden without explicitly granted permission from the developer of that game, or the owner of the trademark rights, or whatever.

I asume all parts of the game(s) are a law protected intullectual property (OFP is no exception), no game developer is so stupid, that it will not protect it from the theft.  I remember in the times of Quake 3 Arena the graphic engine from that game was quite a hit, and many other PC games were builded with it.  But the developers of that other games have to buy him up (and here we talking about hundreds of thuosands or milions of dollars), not just take him, and use him as they please.  And here is the similarity with our problem here, as faint as it might be.

As abut OFP, I see it like this: they give us the tool to make the missions (Mission Editor), so this is some kind of 'permission' (I never go deeply into such kind of thinking); use it inside the OFP, and all is OK, go somewhere else with it, or steal some part of our game, and incorporate it somewhere else, out from the 'OFP realm' ... well, this we will not tolerate.  I have GOTY Edition, and every time I run OFP, I must watch their legal note, how they're the respective owners of the trademark, and all rights reserved, and all that kind of shit ...

[Dubieman]

Okay I get you now.

You know you can use the -nosplash and -nomap in the shortcut target field of OFP to stop those legal notices. Yet that wouldn't make them void now would it.  

[Sefe]

You know you can use the -nosplash and -nomap in the shortcut target field of OFP to stop those legal notices. Yet that wouldn't make them void now would it.  

No, it wouldn't.

These copyright notices are mere reminders without any legal effect. You agreed to the terms of the license agreement when you installed the game.

[Dubieman]

Yes yes that's right. Those agree to continue checks.

[The Negotiator]

Ok as a mission maker.. i use ANY music i want and i also use as much as it as i need..

i dont give a rats ass about legal terms.. who gona know..  you see plenty other people using music in other games  

[C0LDSt33L]

That was blunt but I'm not going to argue. However, I'm not sure how keen OFPEC would be on hosting your mission if it had like an entire album in that pbo .

[Bluelikeu]

just as several other said, companies would not freak out when they see that you have their music in a mission. Nor would they even find out if it did, but the point is that they would rather not spend 100 thousand dollars on a law-suit just to get their song out of your mission, it is simply not logical for the company to do this, they would lose more money than they would gain. Legally it is wrong to do that, morally, I see that music is extremely expensive nowadays, 30-40 dollars a cd is just criminal. If I buy one album, I don't have enough money to buy another for at least a month. For that price i say that we should be allowed to use it in the manner that some of us do.

[Edit]
But I would say that the duplication of songs should not happen in these forums, or in any other part of this site.
I'm not willing to take that chance that OFPEC runs into any problems, it would be devastating :'(

[bored_onion]

kind of a schizophrenic post there, Bluelikeu    

somebody please solve or lock this thread - i think OFPEC's position has been made clear by the staff

[Bluelikeu]

"kind of a schizophrenic post there, Bluelikeu "

there is a little schizophrenia in all of us

[macguba]

Yes I've been watching this thread waiting for the right moment to lock it.   I think this is probably it.

#Locked