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Author Topic: The mission scoring "problem" - the matter of taste  (Read 7586 times)

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Offline rado1265

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The mission scoring "problem" - the matter of taste
« on: 21 Apr 2005, 15:13:02 »
I still remember when I came on this site for the first time, and download some missions for playing (didn't we all start like this ;D), and to my surprise discovered that the missions are score rated.  From the beginning I hold this practice strange and discriminating.  Why?

You know; where's the reviewers "right" to decide for me (or even in the name of the site) which mission is good, and which is bad; I mean, the taste of that reviewer can be a diametrally oposite to mine.  One little exsample: some reviewers hate to do a few more paces across the map, they hold that boring, but I don't mind to do a little treking, because I appreciate the realism, so I know that you can't be parashooted right into the middle of the enemy base.  Secondly, the mission makers knows what the reviewers favorite and what don't favorite (the reviewers personal tastes comes here involved), so some of them ("the addicted to the good score" I call them) adept their missions to the reviewers likings to get a better score.  For me this is a (in)direct influence on mission making proces (that's a lot out there, beleive me), and in my opinion we already have some missions, which they had "suffered" in terms of quality because of that.

And those scores are much to influentual; a mission with a 2/10 score have a barely a hundred downloads, a 9/10 mission over a thousand!  But what if that "2/10 mission" isn't so bad, and a "9/10 mission" isn't so good?  I have the opurtunity to play some, mildly saying, awfull "8/10 missions", and some "3/10"s, which were quite good, much better than that "8/10"s, but that's again can only be the matter of - my taste.  So some missions can be-are overlooked because of that mission scoring sistem influence.

My suggestion: leave out that number scoring sistem -it will not be the end of the world because of that change-, and stay only with the (more detailed if needed) mission reviewing; and let the player to decide (thru the playing offcourse) which mission is for him good, playable, enjoyable, and which is not. On that way the missions players can (again) feel more "in to it", and I asure you, the Mission Comments will (again) become more lively.  The reviewer can-may point out (if he really must, I rather see them "neutral", eg that they're strictly "technical") his likes or dislikes with the mission thru the review, but in form of personal-technical opinions, not in form of suggestions (which some of them oftenly do, like "this is a must", or "avoid it like a plague" -  sic!).

So, what do you think???

Offline Pilot

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Re:The mission scoring "problem" - the matter of taste
« Reply #1 on: 21 Apr 2005, 15:28:16 »
I have to respectfully disagree.

I'm sure a Missions Depot member will be around shortly to give you an official answer, but I will give you my opinion, anyway. ;) A 2/10 mission usually earns that score from errors that occur in the mission, not necessarily the taste of the reviewer.  Likewise, a mission earns an 8/10 or 9/10 because everything works right, it is immersive, and it has atmoshpere.  Usually a higher score means (to me anyway) that the author has put an effort to his mission.  He made sure it works, maybe even had it beta-tested.  A lower score tells me the author didn't care much about making his mission work as well as it should.

You are right, some of the lower scoring missions are enjoyable to play once in awhile.  But that doesn't mean they aren't missing some needed polishing up.

Also, I have heard there is a scoring system in place for members of OFPEC to score the missions.  If you think a mission deserves a higher score, score it yourself!

-Student Pilot

Offline rado1265

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Re:The mission scoring "problem" - the matter of taste
« Reply #2 on: 21 Apr 2005, 15:48:56 »
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A 2/10 mission usually earns that score from errors that occur in the mission, not necessarily the taste of the reviewer.  Likewise, a mission earns an 8/10 or 9/10 because everything works right, it is immersive, and it has atmoshpere.

As I said; all that can be explained in the reviewing, so it can be also explained without that number.

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Also, I have heard there is a scoring system in place for members of OFPEC to score the missions.  If you think a mission deserves a higher score, score it yourself!

You get it all wrong, Student Pilot; I ... akhm ... hate that number scoring system, so why should I score myself?
« Last Edit: 21 Apr 2005, 15:51:06 by karantan »

Offline Pilot

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Re:The mission scoring "problem" - the matter of taste
« Reply #3 on: 21 Apr 2005, 16:00:49 »
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As I said; all that can be explained in the reviewing, so it can be also explained without that number.

I don't know about anyone else, but I use that number as a quick reference on the mission's quality.  Would you want to waste your time reading a review only to find out the mission would be considered a 0 or 1?

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You get it all wrong, Student Pilot; I ... akhm ... hate that number scoring system, so why should I score myself?

It was just a suggestion.  Sometimes you have to use the system to fix any problems caused by the system.

-Student Pilot

Offline rado1265

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Re:The mission scoring "problem" - the matter of taste
« Reply #4 on: 21 Apr 2005, 16:07:46 »
Yes, I always read the mission's review trough and carefully, don't you?  Or you just look at the "number", and you have a decision?  You see what I'm talking about? ;)

If that "numbers" will potentially gone, after a few days nobody will even notice that they're not there.

Offline dmakatra

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Re:The mission scoring "problem" - the matter of taste
« Reply #5 on: 21 Apr 2005, 16:11:32 »
I wouldn't exactley want to download 10 MB of addons, convince my squad to download 10 MB of addons, set up a server, let my squad join the server and download the 2 MB mission file in-game only to find out the mission is crap. Keep the scoring system I say. Author's can't take critisism? Then don't submit the mission to OFPEC. There are plenty of non-review sites out there, e.g. ofp.gamezone.

:beat: *Gets Shot* :beat:
« Last Edit: 21 Apr 2005, 16:11:54 by dmakatra »

Offline Pilot

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Re:The mission scoring "problem" - the matter of taste
« Reply #6 on: 21 Apr 2005, 16:13:10 »
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Yes, I always read the mission's review trough and carefully, don't you?  Or you just look at the "number", and you have a decision?  You see what I'm talking about?
I first look for the description of the mission.  If it sounds interesting, I'll look at the number.  If the mission is below a 3, I'll move on.  A number below a 3 tells me one of two things:
1: This mission is a movie (I have downloaded movie missions)
2: The author didn't put enought effort into his mission to make it better.  Usually a mission below 3 says there are errors in the mission.

If it is 3 or above, I'll take a look at it.  I then read the review, and if I'm satisfied the mission sounds good, I'll download it.  I don't just look at the number and make my decision.

I find the numbers to be a quick, convenient way to judge a mission's quality.

Offline rado1265

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Re:The mission scoring "problem" - the matter of taste
« Reply #7 on: 21 Apr 2005, 16:27:08 »
I sayin' again: all that, that the mission is crap, or is not crap, or whatever,  can be in the more detailed review. More detailed because of lack of that number. Don't tell me, dmakatra, that the number tells you how good the particular mission is. If it does, then ...

You see Student Pilot, your mission picking is partially based on that number scoring system. WHAT IF ... that low scored mission that you've potentially just passed, is a good one (for you)? You'll never know ...

Offline macguba

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Re:The mission scoring "problem" - the matter of taste
« Reply #8 on: 21 Apr 2005, 16:41:56 »
Scoring is not strange, but once upon a time it was unusual.     In the bad old days many sites accepted user created missions, but few rated them.    Some of these sites no longer exist, but some still do - ofp.info probably being the best example.   There, missions are published without comment.    ofpec, from its earliest days, set out to be different and to be committted to quality.   Therefore all the missions hosted here are functional:  if they are accepted with problems, then the problems are mentioned in the review.    

In the bad old days you could spend a lot of time d/l missions that didn't work.   It's still a major problem for missions submitted to ofpec, which is why we talk about beta testing so much - for a mission to be any good it MUST be tested by third parties.    The public do not see much of the hard work done by reviewers:   about 1/3 of subitted missions are non-functional or have major errors, and while reviewers are not beta testers, we do give authors the chance to fix problems.

Discriminating?  Yes, that's the whole point.

Influencing the mission making process?   Yes, that's completely deliberate and has always been an important part of the whole review process.     Most rookie mission designers make the same mistakes as their predecessors:  the review process is partly designed to help them avoid those errors and to encourage them into good mission design practice.    I recently submitted a mission that scored reasonably well:  did I deliberatly add features that I knew would attract marks?  I sure did.   Is the mission better for it?   It sure is.

The reviewer is given the right to examine the mission by the mission designer:  nobody is obliged to submit their mission to ofpec.   (There are plenty of other ways to get it into the public domain.)   The reviewer earns the right to review on behalf of ofpec by passing a stringent test:   more applicants fail than succeed.

There is not the slightest doubt that the overall score is always[/b] debatable by one point.    Occasionally it's more, but for the vast majority of missions, the vast majority of well informed players would agree with the score +/- 1.    Though we've all had the experience of playing an 8 or 9 and thinking, "WTF?".     The answer of course is that enjoyability is only one factor amongst many:   what we are trying to measure is how good the mission is, not how much it is enjoyed by the reviewer, which would be a much more personal thing.    

If you think the score or review is wrong or unfair, have a word with Artak, the Missions Depot Admin.   Scores have been changed in the past, though it is exceedingly rare and only shortly after the review has been published.

A great deal of the score is not a matter of opinion or taste:  reviewing guidelines are quite well defined.    You quote the example of long walks.   Well, it's true that ultimately you will lose marks for excessive long walks (they are boring - indubitably a negative in a leisure activity - and you don't need a mission to admire the Malden scenery, you can do that yourself) but a far more important consideration is the context:   is the tedium appropriate and is it sufficiently rewarded?     Reviewers are well aware of the risks of personal bias and try to avoid it.   Obviously they are sometimes unsucessful and sometimes they overcompensate.  C'est la vie.  

Having said all that, you do have a very important point and it is one that we have discussed in the past.  The headline score is given too much significance by many people.     Far more important than the score is the text of the review itself:  the score is just a summary.    However, if you are not one of these score-obsessed people, you are perfectly at liberty to ignore it.  

If you find a low scoring mission that you think is good, fantastic:  give it a high user rating, post a Comment on it saying you thought it was good and, if you really like it, advertise it your signature line.    However, the plain fact is that most low scoring missions have low scores for a reason.   In reviews of such missions you will often find tips and suggestions from the reviewer as to how the mission designer could do better next time.      

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You know; where's the reviewers "right" to decide for me (or even in the name of the site) which mission is good, and which is bad; I mean, the taste of that reviewer can be a diametrally oposite to mine.
The confusion implicit in this quote is, I suspect, the nub of the whole problem.  The reviewer is not looking to see whether a mission is to his taste or not:  he is looking to see whether the mission is any good or not.     And he is not deciding for you, he is giving you information to help you decide for yourself.  

If we remove the headline score, who gains?


Plenty of reviewed ArmA missions for you to play

Offline macguba

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Re:The mission scoring "problem" - the matter of taste
« Reply #9 on: 21 Apr 2005, 16:49:33 »
Bloody hell, six replies in the time it takes me to write one.   ;D

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Don't tell me, dmakatra, that the number tells you how good the particular mission is. If it does, then ...
Yes, the number does tell you, roughly, how good the mission is.   That is what it is for.    Missions scoring 7 are mostly better than missions scoring 3.   That's not to say that 3s aren't worth playing - some are.    Of course there is the occasional 7 that should be a 3 and vice versa but that doesn't invalidate the system.

There are 500 missions in the Missions Depot.    You can't read 500 reviews before deciding which one to download.   The overall score is just a quick and dirty shorthand which helps get you from "which mission will I download today?" to "dum-diddle-up You are dead."
« Last Edit: 21 Apr 2005, 16:50:54 by macguba »
Plenty of reviewed ArmA missions for you to play

Offline Baddo

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Re:The mission scoring "problem" - the matter of taste
« Reply #10 on: 21 Apr 2005, 17:14:41 »
Hmmm...

There are some things I have not liked when I have read some of these tutorials and reviews where someone is saying:

- Briefing is not good if it doesn't have many pages + pictures.

- Intro missing, very bad! What if the mission editor was thinking that he/she should put more effort into making an outro? So it would be a reward if the player makes it to the end? And what if the player hates long intros, especially if he/she has to restart the mission...

I have not released a mission yet but maybe I will in the future. Time will show if I manage to make a mission good enough to be released to the public. But the missions I have been working on would probably fail badly in the reviews because I like to keep the briefing as short as possible, preferably 1 page maximum (but still informative enough) and I don't like long intros. Intros in general are a good thing to put into missions, but if intro is long it has to be really good or I will start to hate it especially if I need to restart the mission. And hey... come on! Who likes to read 5 pages of briefing in a multiplayer game? I don't! In a single player mission it might be acceptable but really, if I want to read I'll go to the library and grab a good book and read it.

And one more thing... in some high scoring missions I have seen very unrealistic weapon selections. Some missions even have every weapon OFP has in the gear selection... If I were a mission reviewer, that would be a very bad thing and points would get a drop because of that, for sure.

Some mission reviewers/beta testers have said that there HAS to be the possibility to choose weapons, but hey... HELLO!!! No no no, no. I can't imagine such a situation if I went back to the FDF. I would be given an RK 62. If I say "I like Dragnunov, give me a Dragunov!" they will not give it to me but they will punish me for not doing what they say. Well in some places the soldier might have a possibility to choose his weapons but he/she is an expert then.

It's a matter of opinion, of course.

 :)
« Last Edit: 21 Apr 2005, 17:21:45 by Baddo »

Acecombat

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Re:The mission scoring "problem" - the matter of taste
« Reply #11 on: 21 Apr 2005, 17:31:33 »
Ohhh look whos talking  :P.

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One little exsample: some reviewers hate to do a few more paces across the map, they hold that boring, but I don't mind to do a little treking, because I appreciate the realism, so I know that you can't be parashooted right into the middle of the enemy base.

Ok lets see this example of yours. No reviewer minds a bit of trekking as long as its not 5 k's long back and forth for nothing except a crappy useless objective. I need to see reason in whatever i do i'll walk the whole of Nogova if the reason justifies it and i am not willing to walk 100 m if it doesnt.

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a mission with a 2/10 score have a barely a hundred downloads, a 9/10 mission over a thousand!  But what if that "2/10 mission" isn't so bad, and a "9/10 mission" isn't so good?  I have the opurtunity to play some, mildly saying, awfull "8/10 missions", and some "3/10"s, which were quite good, much better than that "8/10"s, but that's again can only be the matter of - my taste.  So some missions can be-are overlooked because of that mission scoring sistem influence.

Thats a load of BS. The system here at OFPEC and other mission reviewing websites like Opflash.org are very time tested and community orientated and display a very good standard in taste and choice so if a mission scores 2/10 there is definitely something wrong , the reviewer wasnt smoking weed and decided to put a 2 there for nothing.
There might be a disparity of lets say 1-2 pts MAX but thats it , mission types may vary and thats where individual tastes come in NOT the scoring. Scoring is done on the basis of several issues in a mission and not simply like/dislike over the mission type/storyline.

Offline MachoMan

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Re:The mission scoring "problem" - the matter of taste
« Reply #12 on: 21 Apr 2005, 17:55:17 »
Yep, I love trekking, just love hitting that + button 100 times!  ;D

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My suggestion: leave out that number scoring sistem -it will not be the end of the world because of that change-, and stay only with the (more detailed if needed) mission reviewing; and let the player to decide (thru the playing offcourse) which mission is for him good, playable, enjoyable, and which is not. On that way the missions players can (again) feel more "in to it", and I asure you, the Mission Comments will (again) become more lively.  The reviewer can-may point out (if he really must, I rather see them "neutral", eg that they're strictly "technical") his likes or dislikes with the mission thru the review, but in form of personal-technical opinions, not in form of suggestions (which some of them oftenly do, like "this is a must", or "avoid it like a plague" -  sic!).

I kinda agree with u on one point:

- Ppl should really read the review, not just look at the marks

I disagree, because:

- Getting rid of the points would make the review system more subjective!

This is because we have an extensive review guide which tells us what errors are major no-no's, what should earn you extras, etc.
Get those missions out there you morons!

Offline rado1265

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Re:The mission scoring "problem" - the matter of taste
« Reply #13 on: 21 Apr 2005, 18:50:51 »
Auuu, look all that dust! ;D

Here's my personal expirience about this (though I try to keep it like neutral): when I see the mission's score, I make (despite all the trying to ignore that number) a preasumption of the mission's value, but when I read the review I'm not always convinced that the reviewer have right about it (they're not gods, they make mistakes), and when I read some Mission Comments, if they're there, then sometimes I'm even more convinced that the reviewer got it wrong.  And here's the diference, if you can see it: the "number" - preasumption, the review reading - self making decision.

macguba, a more detailed review, with full of criticism of the particular parts of the mission if needed, can be much more helpful to the rooke mission designer, than a low scoring.

I have nothing more to add to this matter, I say all what I intent to say (obviuosly the answer is no, nein, nada, niet, niente ... you conservatives you are! ;)), so I will end in the macguba's manner, with the question: if that number "goes", what we will lost?

Offline General Barron

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Re:The mission scoring "problem" - the matter of taste
« Reply #14 on: 21 Apr 2005, 19:53:06 »
In general, I find the numbers helpful for distinguishing a good mission from a bad one. The 'in between' area is less easy to define by the score, because some 5/10 missions are really quite enjoyable, while some 7/10 missions seem rather boring, IMO. But generally, seeing a 2/10 lets me know that I don't want to download that mission, because it will be chock-full of all those frustrating misison errors that we've all seen a thousand times (poor briefing, mission won't end, etc). There are exceptions of course, and I've played a few 2/10's that seem like they should be 7+, but those are exceptions, not the rule.

I do think that the missions depot/reviews could be improved, however, but I don't think this is the way to do it. Not to name names, or put anyone down, but personally, I don't like short reviews where the reviewer spends as much time talking about the briefing + overview as they do talking about the mission itself. Recently there seem to be more of these than in the past, but I could be wrong. The reviews I find the most helpful are ones where the reviewer describes what the mission is about, in as much detail possible (without ruining any surprises). After that, it is nice to see all the technical points of what the author did good or poorly. I personally don't care about whether the overview had a border, or spilled onto two pages, or anything like that (unless it is really awful).

The single thing that could improve the missions depot the most, IMO, would be having SOME kind of organization of the missions, aside from what is currently available. What I mean is, what if I want to play a flying mission? Well, I'd like to be able to hit a button and only see those kinds of missions. In that case, I would download whatever seems interesting, including missions with 'lower' scores, such as 4-5. Or if I wanted to play with WWII units, or a specific mod or island, etc. It would be hard to implement, and I'm not even sure what catagories you would organize them into, but that would make it so much easier to find the style of mission you want. Perhaps even a simple word search of the mission descriptions would work well for this.

Even with any flaws it might have, OFPEC is still the best site for downloading missions. :D I can't stand sites like OFP.info that don't even have reviews for the missions (let alone an author's description!)...

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ProudPotter2490

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Re:The mission scoring "problem" - the matter of taste
« Reply #15 on: 21 Apr 2005, 20:26:59 »
Hey!
Lol I only had to read a few sentences to know what this was about ;)!

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I mean, the taste of that reviewer can be a diametrally oposite to mine.
Well your taste might be different to that of another member and the reviewer. When I see a mission I use what a Mission Reviewer says and take that as a guide. There are various mentalities of Mission Makers. Some prefer to be scrict, one name that springs to mind is Anmac :). Some mission makers are very lenient, like Mike Beil :)!

Think of mission reviewing like a sports game. If there is a foul, the referee managing the game has to decide whether he blows the whistle or shouts "Play on ::)!" One referee might decide it was to tougher challenge and give the foul. Another might think it's okay and play on.

There are missions out there, scored badly I actually like. It's the case for everyone. I've even hear reviewers say they liked the concept but the execution wasn't too good and so physically the mission was only worth a small number.

The point? Opinion. Thats all it is. We don't all agree with eachother but thats life isn't it? On the missions screen, replace 'Release Date' with 'Public Rating' at the top. You'll soon the how opinions of the general public clash with that of a reviewer, even though i'm sure you'll admit 10/10 is overated for some missions ;).
ProudPotter2490 :afro:

Acecombat

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Re:The mission scoring "problem" - the matter of taste
« Reply #16 on: 21 Apr 2005, 20:35:38 »
Gen. Barron what do you think about www.opflash.org 's mission reviews? I think we've got the most missions after OFPEC properly reviewed and scored along with the most campaigns and Co-op/MP as well.

@Karantan:

We all know where your coming from , all this whining of yours is because your mission didnt get good reviews and according to you 2 reviewers with different mindsets on different websites gave it a similiar scoring and that burned you up and now according to you mission reviewers are basically flawed nearly everytime ? Thats the simple reasoning behind your whole argument which is unreasonable at best. And most mission reviewers do GIVE detailed reviews explaining the weak points and how to improve upon them i do that regularly so if this is coupled with a score whats your whining about?

Offline dmakatra

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Re:The mission scoring "problem" - the matter of taste
« Reply #17 on: 21 Apr 2005, 20:36:20 »
Yeah, make the Members Rating more important! I had that idea like two years ago but no-one replied to the thread. Right now like two or three people vote on the mission, max. Some missions that are shite is on the top of the Members Rating because the author and some of his hired friends have voted and everyone else didn't bother to. :P

:beat: *Gets Shot* :beat:

Acecombat

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Re:The mission scoring "problem" - the matter of taste
« Reply #18 on: 21 Apr 2005, 20:44:52 »
Well i wouldnt go for audience voting much anyhow. There are some people who consider plopping a few units on a map with random wp's and chasing them all 52km of the islands is good fun and a very well constructed mission  ::).

Offline rado1265

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Re:The mission scoring "problem" - the matter of taste
« Reply #19 on: 21 Apr 2005, 20:45:59 »
In general, I find the headline score -I don't mean that overview, scripting...numbers, they can stay, because they're somewhat helpful, I mean the main score- rather disturbing.  As I said somewhere: 100 ppl - 100 tastes.

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The reviews I find the most helpful are ones where the reviewer describes what the mission is about, in as much detail possible (without ruining any surprises). After that, it is nice to see all the technical points of what the author did good or poorly. I personally don't care about whether the overview had a border, or spilled onto two pages, or anything like that (unless it is really awful).

That's what I'm talking about all the time!  And if that is done, why the hell I need that headline score. If the mission is like 2/10 make this clear in the reviewing, and leave the player the final decision.  With that headline score some people don't smell even a 4/10 or 5/10 missions, truly.  But sadly

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I don't like short reviews where the reviewer spends as much time talking about the briefing + overview as they do talking about the mission itself. Recently there seem to be more of these than in the past

you're right here, Herr General, IMO also the quality of the reviewing is on the drop.

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Even with any flaws it might have, OFPEC is still the best site for downloading missions. :D

No argues here!  We all know that, don't we? :)

Offline rado1265

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Re:The mission scoring "problem" - the matter of taste
« Reply #20 on: 21 Apr 2005, 21:00:09 »
@Acecombat

As always you've got it TOTALLY WRONG.  If I want a better score of my missions, I will make them as long as it needed to get that high scoring of yours, I will not say that that score should be remouved.  And I have seen what the incompetent reviewers can do...

And dismantle from me, would you?

Acecombat

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Re:The mission scoring "problem" - the matter of taste
« Reply #21 on: 21 Apr 2005, 21:05:08 »
LOL i got it wrong so did Anmac , everyones got it wrong it seems apart from you  ::).

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And dismantle from me, would you?

eh?

Offline rado1265

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Re:The mission scoring "problem" - the matter of taste
« Reply #22 on: 21 Apr 2005, 21:11:46 »
Anmac hasen't done a reviewing here, but his little wendetta.

That's all what I have to say to you.

Goodbye, Acecombat!

Offline greg147

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Re:The mission scoring "problem" - the matter of taste
« Reply #23 on: 21 Apr 2005, 21:37:58 »
Remember that the more missions that come out, the better your mission has to be to get a good rating. Some of the first missions that got, say, 7/10 then would get about 2/10 now because they would be compared to really good, new missions.
Way back when the game came out, putting a looping music script in may have impressed the reviewer, but now the scripts have to be more complicated to woo him/her.  ;)
Royal Air Assault Battalion - [L/Cpl] Greg
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Offline 456820

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Re:The mission scoring "problem" - the matter of taste
« Reply #24 on: 21 Apr 2005, 21:59:18 »
well in ways i agree because i have played some 9/10 missions and didnt like them not because there bad mission just because i dont like that kind of mission but have played some lower mission and really enjoyed them its allo about peoples taste

Offline MachoMan

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Re:The mission scoring "problem" - the matter of taste
« Reply #25 on: 21 Apr 2005, 22:04:29 »
Remember, the score isn't all about fun, it also tells a lot about technical soundness!
Get those missions out there you morons!

Acecombat

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Re:The mission scoring "problem" - the matter of taste
« Reply #26 on: 21 Apr 2005, 23:01:46 »
Yeah some people think putting in 75 sound triggers of OWL's voicesaround the AO of the mission  as a very technical achievement  ;D.

OFP is all about fun well for the mainstream public that plays it , ofcourse people can use it for training purpose also and say its a rather neat sim for private use but its primary purpose is enjoyment. Therefore missions that score high on the 'enjoyable and engrossing' part are good. Take Anmacs mission's for example hardly realistic many of them like Assault Hard is which you are a lone SASR sniper vs a trillion soviets with tanks as well. But hey it was very well made and had left you with a very satisfying feeling yet it was hardly based on realism. A balance between both is usually the key.

Homefry31464

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Re:The mission scoring "problem" - the matter of taste
« Reply #27 on: 22 Apr 2005, 00:11:31 »
I fail to see why the system needs to change.  The review covers mainly the technical aspect of the mission... lets have a look at how things are scored... shall we?

This guide below, will help you see how our Score System comes around. Thanks to snYpir & Devilchaser who came up with the Scoring system for the Overall Scoring.

Each item below is marked Zero to Ten. Zero meaning it is not included, or not complete, with One being the next poorest mark. Ten indicates work on a superb level, rarely seen.

Check List:

Overview - Scores for the Overview

Overview Graphic - Scores for the Overview Graphic

Briefing - Scores for the Breifing

Scripting - Scores for the Scripting

Camera - Scores for the Camera

Overall Score - Final Score for the Mission

Overall Mission Scoring:

1-2 - Avoid this Mission at all costs!

3-4 - Perhaps worth a try if you're bored...

5 - Nice, Average Mission... Nothing great, but nothing overtly bad either.

6-7 - Worthy of a try, even if only once.

8-9 - Definately worth downloading, give it a try, you'll not be dissapointed!

10 - Download it now! Can't go wrong with this one!


Now... looking at that the technical aspects of the mission take the forefront, nothing but.  For the very, very large majority of missions, I don't disagree with the author and how they score.  In fact, I see plently of reviews where the reviewer enjoyed playing the mission, but marked the mission lower because of technical faults.  It's been said many times before, the number is an overall representation of the technical aspects of the mission; how it works, if things were spelled correctly, ect.

Just because you disagree with a review a mission recieved doesn't mean we should do away with the number system in place.  Just because it has a little room for opinions in it doesn't mean that the system itself if wrong or bad.  If you do happen to disagree, go ahead and post a comment explaining why you disagree.  It's nice and simple.

Offline Sui

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Re:The mission scoring "problem" - the matter of taste
« Reply #28 on: 22 Apr 2005, 05:06:01 »
Thanks for your input, karantan. We always welcome new ideas.

However I pretty much completely disagree with everything you've said ;D


The reviewing system is based on a hard and fast scoring system, and though reviewer preference and opinion may make make one (or on odd occasions two) points of difference the mission score is reflected by gameplay and technical attributes of the mission itself.

We are an editing site, and as such incorporate editing technique into the score as well as things like gameplay and enjoyment. A reviewer can take points off gameplay for boring walks, but not 4 or 5 like you seem to be implying! ;)
Also, (can't remember who mentioned it) we don't drop points for not having an intro.

I find it interesting the impressions and assumptions people make about our scoring system, when we haven't made the full criteria public!

You're right in that you should definitely read the review, and pay more attention to that than to the score. However the score isn't nearly as useless as you make it out to be ;)
The idea of making user ratings more important isn't bad, but the user ratings can be abused and are less reliable than a verified OFPEC score ;)

Remember, you are always free to post comments disagreeing with the review. It's a community driven system, and we always welcome community input. Just bear in mind that the same sort of rules apply to comments as to the forum. ie. Abuse and slander will earn you warnings/a ban if you can't keep it clean.

Sure, the system isn't perfect, but I don't believe the changes you suggest would be in any way beneficial. At the moment the missions can be sorted by many different stats (popularity, score etc.) which can give you a quick snap shot of our 'good' missions.

Anyway, bottom line: If you don't like the way we do business don't submit your mission :)
That may sound harsh, and as I hope I've made clear we always welcome suggestions and will always consider them.

/moderators hat on.

On a side note, karatan/ace/everyone else.... I'd ask that you simmer down a little, especially in regards to accusations about our reviewers motives. If you have a problem with a review (or a reviewer), IM  Artak about your concerns. The public forum is not the place to air your dirty laundry, and continuing to do so will earn you a reprimand. Keep it clean please.

Offline macguba

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Re:The mission scoring "problem" - the matter of taste
« Reply #29 on: 22 Apr 2005, 10:04:00 »
Hmmm, interesting point about abuse of user ratings.   After a sudden jump in the number of ratings I suspected the same thing here but thought perhaps it was just people who were sore because they couldn't finish the mission.    It appears not.
Plenty of reviewed ArmA missions for you to play

Acecombat

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Re:The mission scoring "problem" - the matter of taste
« Reply #30 on: 22 Apr 2005, 12:59:41 »
Quote
On a side note, karatan/ace/everyone else.... I'd ask that you simmer down a little, especially in regards to accusations about our reviewers motives.

Sui i dont have any complaints about your reviewers , karantan obviously has issues thats the very reason why he even made the thread. He's truly having problems coming to grips with the review system , i guess that was why he sent Anmac an abusive PM after his mission got reviewed here , and frankly speaking i dont see why such people's missions are even reviewed its a waste of time. Ungrateful people do not deserve our time , we waste our time trying to play a mission no matter how crap it might and then post a honest review over what we thought of it and this is what we get in return sniddish comments and abusive PM's.

Thats all from me , the reason i posted this here is quite clear mr karantan made this topic because of personal issues he's had in the past with the system rather then being worried about other peoples stuff.

Offline Baddo

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Re:The mission scoring "problem" - the matter of taste
« Reply #31 on: 22 Apr 2005, 14:18:29 »
Sui i dont have any complaints about your reviewers , karantan obviously has issues thats the very reason why he even made the thread. He's truly having problems coming to grips with the review system , i guess that was why he sent Anmac an abusive PM after his mission got reviewed here , and frankly speaking i dont see why such people's missions are even reviewed its a waste of time. Ungrateful people do not deserve our time , we waste our time trying to play a mission no matter how crap it might and then post a honest review over what we thought of it and this is what we get in return sniddish comments and abusive PM's.

Thats all from me , the reason i posted this here is quite clear mr karantan made this topic because of personal issues he's had in the past with the system rather then being worried about other peoples stuff.

I do agree with him/her that some things in missions are not crystal clear when judging what is good or bad in a mission. So he/she has a good point there.

Please note: I am not saying anything else. I have nothing against anyone on this site.

 :)

P.S. Because it's a matter of opinion, nobody gets offended of what someone says about missions, OK?

 Now I will :-X

Offline The-Architect

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Re:The mission scoring "problem" - the matter of taste
« Reply #32 on: 22 Apr 2005, 14:27:41 »
Ok, I just read this whole thread (first time for me) and I have a few things to say.

- Briefing is not good if it doesn't have many pages + pictures.

This is not true. Not in my case anyway. I hold the opinion that there are two different kinds of briefing. The detailed briefing and the BIS standard briefing. I don't score one lower than the other. I will score one low if its crap though. "Kill the bad guys." Just won't cut it. Likewise 20 pages of "how's your father." in the notes section is equally bad practice.

The single thing that could improve the missions depot the most, IMO, would be having SOME kind of organization of the missions, aside from what is currently available. What I mean is, what if I want to play a flying mission? Well, I'd like to be able to hit a button and only see those kinds of missions. In that case, I would download whatever seems interesting, including missions with 'lower' scores, such as 4-5. Or if I wanted to play with WWII units, or a specific mod or island, etc. It would be hard to implement, and I'm not even sure what catagories you would organize them into, but that would make it so much easier to find the style of mission you want. Perhaps even a simple word search of the mission descriptions would work well for this.

This is a bloody good idea if you ask me. I don't know how the big wigs would implement it but I'd help in any way I could. Why don't you put it to them?


Now onto Karantan. Listen carefully.
When BIS released their game it came with single player missions, campaigns and multiplayer missions that were at a certain level of quality. As soon as people had learned how to use the editor, they started pumping out their own versions. Unfortunatly most people can not maintain the same standard of quality that the original game makers gave us.

BIS set a benchmark, however, and unfortunatly for the small fry out there, that is what most of us expect to see when we load up an offering. Why should I play a mission without sound files, lip-sync or even correct radio use, when BIS showed me how easy it is to achieve?

If they could do it, why do I have to see Alpha speaking but have the radio message come from Delta Black 4? Why should I have to drive down a road which some fool hasn't even bothered to check if the sections have linked up? If BIS have done it, why should I have to read Cur_sp or whatever at the top of a briefing? People like you make me sick.
You dump a load of units and objects into the editor save it, release it as final and then complain when people who know what they are talking about, tell you its not up to the standard that most other people can achieve. Hell, if you're a noob, that's fine, just don't expect to get praised for something if its rubbish.

I'm so mad I don't know what to add.  >:( >:( >:(
« Last Edit: 22 Apr 2005, 14:41:34 by The-Architect »
James Andrew Wilkinson 1977 - 2005 R.I.P.
"If it ain't the friggin' incoming it's the friggin' outgoing. Only difference is who gets the friggin' grease, and that ain't no friggin' difference at all."

Offline macguba

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Re:The mission scoring "problem" - the matter of taste
« Reply #33 on: 22 Apr 2005, 15:04:58 »
That the Missions Depot would be improved by being much more searchable is something that I think everybody would agree on and it has already been discussed.    Unfortunately, there are three hurdles which make it impracticable.

Firstly, it's a lot of work to create.   More than it looks.   You need a complex structure with heirarchies.    How do you divide up islands, for example?   Just BIS/user?   Or temperate/jungle/desert/arctic?   What if you want to search on non-BIS temperate?    And what about mixed islands?    And what about maps that are mostly land, and those that are mostly sea?   Each island would have to have to be in half a dozen different categories.   And how are you going to handle other addons?

Secondly, it is much more difficult to categorise missions than it might first appear.    For example, imagine a mission like this.    Objective 1:  fly your A10 to take out the tanks.  Objective 2:  get hit, bail out successfully and link up with the resistance.  Objective 3:  help the Res assassinate the general.  Now is that flying, blackops, fighting with Res, or all three?   All three, you say?    Fine ... but then how many mission (or Objective) types are there?     Returning to the first point that the system must be flexible enough to have categories added or combined as time passes and the community develops.

Thirdly, even if you can pin down a reasonable set of definitions, and code the whole thing up, you're still left with the insuperable problem of 500 uncategorised missions.   To make the thing worthwhile each one would have be be played again by a staffer to make sure it went in all of the right categories.     Historically we have struggled to cope with reviewing new missions, having to check back through the whole corpus would be an enormous task.   Even if it could be done it might take a year.

In other words, it's much, much harder than you might think.   The good news, admittedly on a distant horizon, is that when OFP2 comes out we are likely to be able to create a better system than the one we have now.  It is unlikely to be perfect for the reasons outlined above, and will not be retrospective, but for OFP2 missions you should be able to search more effectively than you can now.

Bear in mind that OFPEC missions are already more searchable than those on some other, otherwise excellent, OFP sites.
« Last Edit: 22 Apr 2005, 15:05:38 by macguba »
Plenty of reviewed ArmA missions for you to play

Offline Kendo J

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Re:The mission scoring "problem" - the matter of taste
« Reply #34 on: 22 Apr 2005, 15:13:25 »


When BIS released their game it came with single player missions, campaigns and multiplayer missions that were at a certain level of quality. As soon as people had learned how to use the editor, they started pumping out their own versions. Unfortunatly most people can not maintain the same standard of quality that the original game makers gave us.


I'm so mad I don't know what to add.  >:( >:( >:(

Chill out yo!
it took me ages to get to something of BIS quality mission making... now I have figured out most of the simple things you mention callsigns and cutscenes etc the game still rocks and you have to give people a chance! I am sure about 99% of the mission in my editor suck ass
but some are good... there are also loads of amazing missions out there!!!!!!!!!
I think the scoring is quite fair
and when it is harsh on me... even better because I just want to prove I can make good missions next time round!

Regards kendo
« Last Edit: 22 Apr 2005, 15:14:00 by Kendo J »

Offline rado1265

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Re:The mission scoring "problem" - the matter of taste
« Reply #35 on: 22 Apr 2005, 15:21:43 »
Hm, here're some interesting replies, in which i will try to reply myself, though I don't see any meaning for this anymore.

845682, yeah, that's classical "clash of the tastes".  But if there's no that number, there's no that clash, only detailed, well maid (I hope) review.

Homefry, Sui, I'm familiarised with your Reviewing and Scoring System, but, no one argues with that, I just see that big, fat number, or mission categorising system if you want, kind of obsolete.  Please, read more carefully what was my intention.

Sui, you said that you always welcome and consider the suggestions.  That's fine, but did you ever accept any?  And about that acusations or whatever, I didn't start it, but someone out there can't forget some things, and can't let them go.  And I will no more argue with him, because no matter how I try to explain some things to him, it doesen't work, because he's deeply frustrated with something.

Baddo, I'm he ;).  You seem to understand what I mean and I thank you for that.  And don't be such a sissy, it's your site to!

The - Architect, I will just say to you that all what you have said fits in the review for some very bad maded mission or something like that, not here.  And about your sickness ... well, be my guest, kiddo, and I don't want even to know the reason for that sickness ...

And here's another deep question from me: should I "solve" it?

Offline macguba

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Re:The mission scoring "problem" - the matter of taste
« Reply #36 on: 22 Apr 2005, 15:40:23 »
Quote
you said that you always welcome and consider the suggestions.  That's fine, but did you ever accept any?
Yes.    I'll give you one recent example.   The beta testing party was not a direct suggestion, and some time ago we had considered how to revitalise the beta testing board, but the spark that made it all happen was an IM somebody sent to me suggesting revitalisation of the beta board.

An older example is the sticky topic at the top of the General board.   At the time I was a fairly new member of ofpec, not on the staff or anything.     I wrote a draft, posted it, brought it to the mods' attention, amended it (in fact it took some negotiation between several parties before we had something everybody was happy with) and then it was stickied and locked.

It is true that many suggestions are not implemented.   Some are just bad ideas;  some are too divisive;  some have their merits but are not consistent with already exists; some are too much work to be practical; some are technically impossible.    Many are things which have already been thought of but which cannot be carried out for one or more of these reasons.    

But let there be no doubt:  whenever somebody comes up with a good idea that can be implemented, it is done.    Such an approach is central to everthing ofpec is.     So if anybody has a good idea, please say so.    All suggestions are welcome, whatever the end result.

OFPEC:   By[/i] the community, for[/size] the community.
[/b]
« Last Edit: 22 Apr 2005, 16:10:40 by macguba »
Plenty of reviewed ArmA missions for you to play

ProudPotter2490

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Re:The mission scoring "problem" - the matter of taste
« Reply #37 on: 22 Apr 2005, 16:21:39 »
Hey guys!
Quote
Sui, you said that you always welcome and consider the suggestions.  That's fine, but did you ever accept any?
I'm sorry karentan, I completely disagree. Whether or not Sui was part of the production of the site isn't to my knowledge. However, he is a Global Administrator and plays an invaluable role in the site.

Think of OFPEC like a business. The owners (Noon416 and buBBa, I belive?) hire him as a sort of manager. He will take in ideas and if he thinks they are sensible he will consider them. If they're fit to be considered and thus executed, he'll put it forward to the owners and they will take it from there. At least, that's one of his jobs. There are many ideas out there that are moronic, unrealistic or difficult to impliment. Unfortunatly for Sui and others he's one of the people who has to filter these ideas through and many of them don't get past this net.

Imagine if those at the top of the heirarchy accepted every or most ideas put forward! It's not a promising future for this site is it? Thankfully we've got good ol' chaps like Sui to prevent the site from completely crashing.

OFPEC has turned into more than just a fansite. It's more than just a resource. More than just a social gathering club. It's turned into a Business. This business is what of the primary factors as to why Operation Flashpoint is still alive today. Imagine a world without OFPEC. I can guaruntee that after a couple of months the game would be up on your shelf collecting dust. I can tell you that Sui is one of the people preventing OFPEC and OFP from falling. Even if he has to reject your idea's, my idea's and John Smith's idea's. If it's for the good of the site, I'm happy.
ProudPotter2490 :afro:

PS: I think it might be relevent to attract your attentsion to this rule you accepted in the Terms Of Agreement:-
Quote
If you have an issue with a Global Administrator, tough!
« Last Edit: 22 Apr 2005, 16:23:17 by ProudPotter2490 »

Offline rado1265

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Re:The mission scoring "problem" - the matter of taste
« Reply #38 on: 22 Apr 2005, 16:59:11 »
Now when I'm back from my launch I read some of the replies more carefully, and discovered that The - Architect try to compare or draw an equality between ours and BIS missions.

That's nonsens! They had years of time, a team of specialists, "the means" ... we have weeks, and in that weeks the time as the job and the fammily allows it (in my case anyway).  Now I'm rather courious with which number will you, The - Architect, rate a BIS mission, let's say ... Convoy.  And if you try to compare our missions with the BIS ones, why then your missions don't meet that standards?

ProudPotter2490, when I ask that Sui, I didn't meant him in person, but the whole Admin.  And don't call the ideas from the others moronic, have a little respect, though I don't think you meant me.  And I know that they can't accept all the suggestions that comes up, but I've get the impression, that they're totally stiffed regarding this.  Now macguba has shown that it isn't so.  And you writing like I have something against Sui or someone else.  For your information, I have not.

Now I really don't like this anymore.  This has turned into pointless, meaningless debate.
« Last Edit: 22 Apr 2005, 17:00:16 by karantan »

ProudPotter2490

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Re:The mission scoring "problem" - the matter of taste
« Reply #39 on: 22 Apr 2005, 17:21:27 »
Hey.
Quote
when I ask that Sui, I didn't meant him in person, but the whole Admin.
Well, replace Sui with all the admins prior to what I said previously.

Quote
don't call the ideas from the others moronic, have a little respect,
I've seen ideas out there that I consider to be moronic, idiotic or just plain stupid. Bear in mind that's my opinion.

Quote
I don't think you meant me.
I didn't mean you. This idea is just very unrealistic. It wont happen i'm sorry to say. But if the day comes, i'll say you were right then... But you'll have alot of waiting to do I am sure.

Quote
And I know that they can't accept all the suggestions that comes up, but I've get the impression,
Well i've told you why they can't accept all or most idea's in my last post. The administation must be very selective on which ideas they choose, for the good of their site.

Quote
And you writing like I have something against Sui or someone else.  For your information, I have not.
I think you have. Against the administration including Sui for not accepting as many ideas as you'd like. Obviously i'm not saying you're on a vendetta against the administration, but it's an issue that annoys you a little ;).
ProudPotter2490.

Offline rado1265

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Re:The mission scoring "problem" - the matter of taste
« Reply #40 on: 22 Apr 2005, 17:56:59 »
Quote
I think you have.

You thinking wrongly.

Quote
Against the administration including Sui for not accepting as many ideas as you'd like.

That's not true.  But surely I'd like for them to be a little more openminded (selfish me ;D).

Offline bedges

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Re:The mission scoring "problem" - the matter of taste
« Reply #41 on: 22 Apr 2005, 18:07:16 »
mmm the difference between 'good' and 'bad'... ah i remember the hours of study i did on the subject, in the context of fine art. answer i came up with? it's all subjective; one man's chalk is another man's cheese. this goes for pretty much all things which are 'consumed' - food, films, music, ofp missions, the whole shabang.

it's all down to standards. the architect raised this point, using BIS missions as the standard, which i agree (since we're all used to playing them) is a good comparison to begin with. karantan makes a fair point about the 'means' of mission making - i for example am a fair distance away from being able to record my own lipsync files. i'd like to, certainly, but at present i'm making missions without. are they bad because of that? perhaps, but that wouldn't be the only reason.

getting back to the original point made, concerning the scoring system. i think it was maybe gubes who posted the reviewing 'rules' a while back, and i was struck by just how much weight was put on the technical aspects of the thing just working, nevermind gameplay - are there missing addons, are the objectives ticking off properly, all that stuff. i think 'gameplay' and 'enjoyment-factor' were stuck in at the very end as points to round off on, not to base a score upon, and it was stressed even then that these were subjective evaluations.

do the scores help? i suppose they do, although many posters above have mentioned that the reviews (and comments by other players) are more important and realistic indicators of whether a mission is worth downloading than the score the reviewer gives.

tastes will differ. to take a good (albeit sacrilegious) example, 'unimpossible mission' has achieved a 9/10 score. well deserved, for many reasons. however (sorry gubes) i have played it all of twice, couldn't get past the first two minutes, and so haven't played it again. i certainly wouldn't award it a 9/10 if that score was based on my enjoyment of it. now whether that's because i'm not good enough at playing the game, or too willing to give up, or because it's too hard, is largely immaterial, because as a mission designer i recognise the quality of the editing, the storytelling, and the fact that he was trying to explore a concept using flashpoint. chalk and cheese, once again.

'abandoned armies' by thobson has attracted similar attention from the regulars, for similar reasons - trying to push the boundaries of what is possible, while still retaining that storytelling, atmospheric potential that flashpoint offers. many players would take one look and say "fuck running around an island for days on end, i want to blow things up! where are the objectives? what am i supposed to do?!" but as far as providing an atmospheric free-roaming experience goes, he's bang on the money.

there are those players who refuse to play missions requiring addons, those players who insist on playing only ultra-realistic combat simulators, those who shout the loudest when sci-fi is mentioned ;)

for my part, i thoroughly enjoyed 'knight jump' by karantan, so much so that i 'borrowed' one of the ideas in the mission (collecting a radio and some documents), just because it was so well done, and it's now in pretty much every mission i've made. i can't remember what score his mission got, and frankly i'm not sure it matters. all i know is i downloaded it, played it, and enjoyed it immensely.

at the end of the day, i think that's all it comes down to. will players avoid low-scored missions? perhaps they will. will some players download them regardless of the score? perhaps they will. does the current system work? does it really matter? we all have access to an immense source of varied talent here at our fingertips. 'good', 'bad'... doesn't matter, so long as it works. this is an editing site, first and foremost, with the benefit of being able to see the results of that hard work in the same place. we'll all judge for ourselves in the end whether we like it or not, scores or no scores.

Acecombat

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Re:The mission scoring "problem" - the matter of taste
« Reply #42 on: 22 Apr 2005, 18:07:43 »
Oh the whole world is wrong and mr. Karantan is always right  .... you havent changed one bit exactly as you were the last time i saw you on the opflash forums trying to tell me that i got the review down wrong anf then started flame baiting me with useless stuff which didnt even belong there or had anything to do with a review.

You sir are the biggest loser i've ever met in my whole mission reviewing career , i've seen plenty of people whove got bad reviews but they've learnt something from it , you keep talking about writing up detailed reviews to know where the problem is but DID you kind sir ever managed to take that all IN and take it constructively instead of dissing the reviewers and telling them that their standards are not correct.  If your so god damn above everyones level then better not submit your stuff anywhere thatd be my advice. Anmac gave you sound advice along with a nice review and all you gave him was a ABUSIVE PM , i gave you good advice just like i give it to any one who's mission i review and you were the one of the few arrogant berks who decided to flame bait me and then bring out your wierdo arguments over how missions are to be done and what shouldnt be done in them , i still remember fondly one of your crappy logic , like not including music files in mission as according to you that was 'stupid' right? I guess plenty of people in the community are stupid for doing this  , nevermind the fact that people enjoy their missions even more as music adds atmosphere and drama to a situation. Ah but thats just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to your oxymoronic logic on the 'Do's and Dont's' of Mission Making.

Heres the mission i'm talking about incase some of you missed it:
http://www.ofpec.com/missions_depot/index.php?ID=1182

I could post the link to the opflash forums as well but cant find it at the moment.

Offline macguba

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Re:The mission scoring "problem" - the matter of taste
« Reply #43 on: 22 Apr 2005, 18:36:36 »
Quote
i think it was maybe gubes who posted the reviewing 'rules' a while back,
Actually it was Artak, Missions Depot Admin.    ;)

I confess I'd forgotten about that, otherwise I would have mentioned it myself.   The thread is here.     The man himself is in the middle of moving house atm.

It's noticeable that "enjoyment" is one factor out of eight listed (which list being incomplete, consisting solely of examples) under one section out of five.    

In this context, Un-Impossible is a good example.  It was specifically designed so that many people would not get past the first two minutes.    For them, the enjoyment is nil.    However, if you do get into the mission (and it's not actually as hard as it feels, once you've played it a few times and stopped for a think) then many people have reported enjoying it a great deal.     It's not really fair to user-rate a mission unless you have finished it.

Another point I forget to mention is that reviewers normally play a mission serveral times and/or explore it in the mission editor.   As a rule they don't just play it once then rate it.  
« Last Edit: 22 Apr 2005, 18:43:08 by macguba »
Plenty of reviewed ArmA missions for you to play

Offline rado1265

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Re:The mission scoring "problem" - the matter of taste
« Reply #44 on: 22 Apr 2005, 18:47:24 »
Hurrraaa, Ace, bravo, you solve it all!
« Last Edit: 22 Apr 2005, 18:47:55 by karantan »

Offline Noon416

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Re:The mission scoring "problem" - the matter of taste
« Reply #45 on: 23 Apr 2005, 05:28:05 »
If you need a final answer from the "owners" of OFPEC, the suggestion is welcome (as are all) but not practical and hence won't be implemented.

As has been clearly and politely stated by macguba, Sui, Homefry and other OFPEC staff members, the reviewing system is consistent, accurate and well-proven. If it wasn't, we would have thrown it out or modified it long ago.

Unfortunately, in this specific case your previous history of being reviewed and then acting out when it wasn't what you expected/wanted, has tainted this whole thread and led to a situation where your motives came across as less than 'honourable'. Intended or not, you can't escape this outcome.

In regards to us not taking on suggestions, I think our position has been clearly & accurately stated in the previous posts, by those that HuBBa & I trust to answer for OFPEC in these type of threads.

So there we have it. We welcomed your suggestion, took it on board, rejected it and then politely and calmly explained why we won't be actioning it.
If that doesn't suit you, then I'm sorry but you're just going to have to live with that. The staff who have provided answers have done so politely without prejudice and given your history, you can't ask for more than that.
"If a man talks in the woods and no woman hears him, is he still wrong?"