(Review Completed) [SP] Abandoned Armies

[Mikero]

I had not expected anyone to go as far as Goisse

I was exploring the westron theme

I have not been to hamlet extreme NW, I went as far as the lighthouse trying to 'locate' where you may have stored some armor and such. (I now know you don't do that). I was going to use that hamlet as a defensive base if my mountain base was over-run. (You would need odds of 10:1 to beat my game play in a desert). I thought highly possible with strange appearance of jeep.

no, to answer previous Q, 2 jeeps were there.

Goisse soldier *could* have been a single off jeep, he was law or AA i believe.

vigny goisse

never went back. In context to the evil southrons, it NOW makes sense that girl-on-bed got shot by who she got shot by. The total lack of enemy activity anywhere west of mountain base made me assume no loons anywhere. Sole exception being I was scared out of Vigny and would not go back.

The contrast could be, that the 'mad women' are encountered by player in northron territory and are clearly evidently, NOT, shot.

---
reading other posts, we all experience same thing, the *percieved* lameness of the collect-the-civil-episodes. I have heart in mouth each time i read them because I think the next sentence from the tester will be, "and so i stopped there, this mission sucks", I'm mentally willing them on, to feel the lag. The jeeps change that. My opinion. They have to have a much shorter, eg more-often-encountered, appearance on those journeys to civils. My opinion, roadblock sentries at each intersection would make sense to me (gives player something to do in 'fair' contest), *providing* no reinforcements are attracted to noise.
----

to the point of saying the opposite of what you mean on the really important stuff

Then your mother is Australian.

>Pyramids

it's true. Napoleonic era.

>MacGuba flags.

he's right, and, he's deliberately pushing the envelope to get you to see a distinction. Only you would know how far you can actually distort it, it's your mission. He's very very right about we dont care who's what. This deserves changing to we hate one more than we hate the other. My response was I didn't care to the point that i wanted to keep both armies in balance.

>tough/too hard.
Forgot to mention what we all dont mention. Broken buildings, 100+ mission players 'know' to avoid them.

Silent Knight:

Please let me know about this, it's worth your game time. It's about the only theme you haven't introduced other than the smell of burning bodies.

[THobson]

I am now back at work so this has to be a very short response, apologies if it seems terse, not meant to be.

The jeeps change that. My opinion. They have to have a much shorter, eg more-often-encountered, appearance on those journeys to civils.

From a game play point of view you are absolutely right, but the main underlying design premise of this mission is not to play the player rather it is to do what is realistic and then just let the player loose on the island - I wanted to see if the idea works.  Like mac's Unimpossible mission - how hard can you make a mission that is fair but still do able, the concept I am trying for here is how realistic can you make a situation and it still be fun. When I started I recognised that my target audience was going to be very small.

My opinion, roadblock sentries at each intersection would make sense to me (gives player something to do in 'fair' contest), *providing* no reinforcements are attracted to noise.

I have started putting some in, but: I am already concerned about the lag this is creating; having any obstacle on a road near any of the patrols or convoys can seriously screw up the AI's ability to keep to the road; and attracting reinforcements is something I do not want to turn off just for game play reasons.

Silent Knight:

Sorry, my brain is slow this morning. What do you mean?

EDIT:
Okay found a bit more time.

to the point of saying the opposite of what you mean on the really important stuff

Then your mother is Australian.

Lol.  Nearly - Durham in fact.  You see I did it with my first word.  An example of the confusion this can sometimes cause - it occurs in this thread.  I hide snipers carefully lying down in a bush.  I then in a quick edit group them with units that are SAFE and did not go in to see the effect.  macguba reports seeing snipers standing up bushes.  His comment was that this was billiant - I then had to check that this was not a friendly leg pull.  It wasn't, it seems that snipers in SAFE mode in the middle of a bush are virtually invisible from more than a few feet even if you know they are there.

Must go.  Work calls.

[SEAL84]

Back again ;D

Just a few quick notes on what I've noticed regarding changes...

- Parking the boat justifies the positioning of your insertion well, though I haven't checked to see if I could actually use that boat...if it's unlocked, prepare for SEAL/SBS operations  Knowing your thoroughness though, I bet it's locked or out of gas.

- Nicked an M16, binocs and CZ75 mags and took off in my jeep.  As I approached the lodge I figured I'd get out of the jeep and go on foot based on some other testers getting shot in the vehicle...I was ordered to halt twice, but when I slung the rifle the cutscene started.  The cutscene itself is far better, as it gets everyone talking and advances the story.  The layout of the camp is also a little better, though based on what's been established about the mountains as a neutral ground, I can't imagine how the house was destroyed.  Also incredibly clever, putting the ammo in the haystack.

- Does that medikit on the wall actually work?  If it does, fantastic.

- No savegame when reaching the lodge?  Damn...none after trying the radio either, although the radio cutscene was nice.

- Went and fetched the first group of civvies with my jeep, but to my dismay they merely follow me and don't join me...too many of them to fit in the jeep so we walk...and walk right into the jeep convoy.  I think for a moment that they haven't seen me, but no, they did, and I'm riddled with .50 cal rounds.  Why is the soldier in the civvy group in safe mode?  Maybe we could have returned fire and blasted our way out...

Well, I'll take it from the top later tonight, hopefully...without a total lapse of tactical sense, if all goes well...

 

**EDIT**

Played more...

Cleared vigny, but this time I loaded the jeep before I talked to the girl, so when she died I shot those two guys who kill her, drove the jeep over to them and looted their corpses.  Made the short and by now well-practiced drive to the camp.  Stashed my loot and started off to find the first civvies.

Got to the group of civvies with the PV3S and they all dutifully hopped in and disembarked when I got back to base camp.  Time to head off and rescue the second group.  I do like how now they have names and there are little cutscenes to watch...makes them feel more important somehow.

The only thing that confuses me is why civvies are broadcasting their locations over unsecure radios...if Captain Bloodthirsty and friends are so intent on capturing and shooting people, it seems like they'd have no problem at all finding these guys.

I love how we get rid of the first load of civvies...get to work, you slack asses!  Find some wood and fix this house!  

Anyhow, it's off to rescue the next batch.  While the shed does look better than the shack that was there before, maybe plop another house down or something so it doesn't look so out of place by the edge of a forest.  The medic heads off to camp on foot - take the truck, fool, and save yourself the walking! - and I take 7 with me to Houdan.

Creeping up on that little cluster of houses West of Houdan, I note with terror the location of an armored platoon.  I didn't stick around long enough to see if the crew was outside the vehicles - the sight of the T-80 was enough to send me running frantically back the way I came.

But I approach Houdan on my own from another angle and slip in...one dead civvy body lays behind a house, but he has no goodies to pilfer.  I note the one undestroyed building and charge in, Kozlice at the ready, and find a Russian who is apparantly living the good life, since he has a nice chair and a little shack all to himself.  I nearly kill him but I get a nice little cutscene.  Good to see all the hints worked more smoothly into the mission.  I tell him to pick up his weapon but as luck would have it, at that very instant a machinegun jeep drives by.  

Dammit.

As soon as it's gone we jump up and run like hell back to where I left 7 and we start back to where I left the truck at civvy position #2.  Along the way we run into an alert infantry squad which appeared to be heading to Houdan (did the jeep report our position without stopping to engage us?) and a firefight ensues - somebody reported an approaching APC, which I assumed to be the Vulcan, and so I knew we were dead anyway...we put up a fight and kill about half of them but are eventually shot.

Good thing I saved.

Ah yes, almost forgot - that boat might just come in handy, since to my surprise it still works.

[THobson]

SEAL84

Good to see you back and thank you for your comments.  A quick answer to the points you make:

Boat:  No it is not locked, it is badly damaged, has no ammo and just over ½ tank of fuel

Also incredibly clever, putting the ammo in the haystack

Thanks

Does that medikit on the wall actually work

Yes.  But for it work on AI you have to get them inside the ruin first.

No savegame when reaching the lodge

I am re-thinking the savegames.

but to my dismay they merely follow me and don't join me

Having them join you in v1.00 created all sorts of problems, this is better in the long run.  Sorry.

Why is the soldier in the civvy group in safe mode?

Good point

The only thing that confuses me is why civvies are broadcasting their locations over unsecure radios

It bothers me also - any ideas?

Houdan seems to be working for you the way I hoped it would.

I would be very interested if you find a use for the boat.  I have never tried using it.  I think it would be wrong to lock it.  You have just arrived in it so I think you should be allowed to get back in.

Thanks again.  Glad to see you are enjoying the newer version - so far.

[Mikero]

>>unsecure radios

>It bothers me also - any ideas?

Oh goodie. he's not speaking ot me so I'll butt in

1) get them to speak in Pongolian with english subtext, or vice versa

2) the msg says 'we're at old what's is names hunting lodge, no specifics, but the map happens to be in the player's dad's army jacket.

3) change radio to a tape recorder found just before you arrive, or then.

4) best 1. (you will hate this Thob, I can hear the screams now)

the message says we can't stick around any one spot, give player 10 minutes to get to them, otherwise, they've moved elsewhere, and so on...

>savegame bug

this was officially 'fixed' as of release 1.96

[THobson]

I'll butt in

Please feel free.

best 1. (you will hate this Thob, I can hear the screams now)

Lol.  As I was reading 1. I was thinking - does he know what he is asking from us novices?

Your 2) has given me an idea.  Thanks.

This site is incredible.  This was a niggle in the back of my mind for so long I forgot about it.  SEAL reminded me and now I have a solution

we can't stick around any one spot, give player 10 minutes to get to them

Nice idea - a swine to implement

[macguba]

"Get off the radio you fool!   What if Andropov hears you?  Shit, right stay where you are, we'll get there as fast as we can."

Or

"You know my voice, right?   You remember that girlfriend I had?  The one with ... well, they were different sizes.  Well you remember where she lived?   We're in the lodge about 2km north of there.    Hidden in the trees.  You know the one I mean?"

[THobson]

 ;D ;D
So many answers.  I ask my self why didn't I think of these - answer (or justification more like) I had many other things that were niggling me more.  Like - I have over done the attenuation of the fog etc.

savegame bug

this was officially 'fixed' as of release 1.96

Someone needs to 'officially' tell my computer then.  It doesn't know yet.
 

[Henderson]

Haven't played OFP in a little while,  , been doing other stuff, but I should be back with another report soon. Soon meaning sometime this year of course.  

[SEAL84]

Hmmmm...remember this:

?!?!?!?!?!

Am I missing something or are we actually suggesting that the building is moving?

I can assure you, sirs, that it is not.  I've been entering on the west side, on the right side of that wall...it appears to be a door that you can run through, although given that the building is on a bit of a slope, it is sunken into the ground.  As we all know, buildings in OFP don't contour to fit the landscape, so it is a bit wierd when you're inside it.

and this:

I have suspected buildings of sinking during missions in the past, though I've never managed to prove it.    I haven't got the energy to run back there and check at the moment, unfortunately.      Even if it is happening to me that doesn't mean its happening to you.

It's happening to me.  I can't even get into the ruins anymore.  It seems that my terrain detail settings are set to "normal" every time I load a savegame, although I usually leave it on "very low" because my laptop sucks.

Like I said, I can't even enter the ruins anymore as the entire ground floor has sunken into the ground.  The ammo crate in the haystack seems to be staying at ground level while the rest of the shed is slowly disappearing into the ground.

VERY troublesome :-\

[Mikero]

@THobson

I have the answer to the airport wobbler. I have ideas on better pyramids too, but....


The mad women are the key, the further south you push the player, the better the "oh my god"

Northrons have a Scud. It's the reason the mad womed are, well, mad women.

Scud does not have to be active or play much furhter part, it cannot be introduced 'earlier' because it would be overkill. At this point however, player has formed cunning plans and getting 'into' mission.

Cutscene showing sattelite drop, or even just a white-out, while the information is told to player.

Done right it would have the same effect on player as Basil Faulty in The Psychatrist, total cringe mode, jacket over head, desperately trying to get a handle back on sanity, and how the hell to play this game.

[THobson]

SEAL:
That confirms my suspicion.  To play this mission the player needs to have his video options set to Normal by default - it is no good just me doing it in the mission.  northener has his default options set to high, and after a few exits and restarts his buildings are flying.  See the picture attached to his post above (reply #487)

My theory is:
Anything other than normal confuses the hell out of OFP when any objects are in contact with the ground, but providing the settings are not changed then there is no cumulative effect.  v1.10 sets, and repeatedly re-sets the terrain detail to normal, so repeated saves and re-starts creates a cumulative effect if the player does not have his settings set to normal by default.  

Moving the location of the lodge is not the answer either - this 'feature' of OFP hits anything that in not on perfectly flat ground.

You will probably find that other things are either sinking or flying, even vehicles that have been stationary for a long time.  Is the mission playable?   The loss of the ruin is not a mission stopper and you may find that some of the bases have sandbags that have sunk - or risen - so they might look odd.

I am sorry about this.  I will remove the terrain setting code from future versions so there should be no cumulative effect.


mikero.  A SCUD is an interesting idea - I suppose I subconsciously avoided them because my last mission over dosed on them.  I don't know how I can make that fit with the idea that the two sides are balanced, but I agree it could be really unsettling for the player.   Anyway all ideas are always welcome.  My experience over the last several months of making this mission is to let ideas soak for a while and it is surprising how often many of them join up to make a integrated whole.  Currently I have just scripted a mass prison break of the citizens of Sainte Marie from their prison in Chapoi.  This happens - the player may or may not see it.  I am not sure how much of it should be explained to the player.  I don't have to worry about scripting player interaction with these people, they have no idea what those signs around Sainte Marie mean so any that manage to get away (yes they are shot at as they try to escape) don't last long.  This may not survive the final cut - it is one of quite a series of thoughts I have had many of which have not made it - like the north and south border guards I used to have that monitored proceeding at La Trinite - they are long gone.

@ALL At random times of the day or night I remember a comment that has been made here that I have not responded to.  So just because I have not mentioned it please don't think it has been ignored.  

I appreciate the hours that many of you have already spent on this mission so I am hesitant to ask for more, but if you have views I would welcome comments:
- av/ap mines
- too much armour?
- now too little impact of fog? too much impact of rain?
- vehicles of no at La Trinite

I have my views and will play around with options but if any have strong view I would welcome them.

These are things I can work on.  The story line requires time to soak.

I am currently working on establishing tangible differences between the two armies and increasing the evidence of Stamenov's villany and lack of discipline in his army.  

[macguba]

I am not sure how much of it should be explained to the player.

There are two principles of good mission design here which are relevant.   The first you have already satisfied:  namely if something is happening it should be logical, consistent, explainable and so on.   This is a fundamental of this mission - you don't use createUnit and so on to make impossible things happen.

The second principle is player understanding.  Will the player understand what is going on?    A good way to approach this is to imagine that the player sees the whole proceedings, which in this case is actually possible.   See the prisoners in the cage, see the breakout and so on.    Again, in this case you will do it all realistically so if the player is watching he will understand exactly what has happened.  

Consequently, I don' t think you have anything to worry about.    If the player sees the whole thing, no problem.  If he sees only the aftermath it will make sense because it all happened realistically.    (What you often find in inferior missions is that, because the mission designer has fixed it so that the player cannot see the tricky bits - which is a legitimate mission making technique - the designer forgets to put in the details afterwards.   So for example you find "escaped prisoners" but no hole in the wire.

There is no need to tell the player anything, he either notices it or he doesn't.    However, another secret to good mission making is to squeeze every last drop of fun out of every event.   You are very constrained by CPU power in this mission, so you really have to work your assets.   If you have a great thing like a prison break going on, you should bring it to the player's attention.    You have already established the principle of wild radio messages from strangers, so maybe that is the answer.  

Similarly with the scud.    Introducing a scud halfway through and linking it to the mad women is a great idea.   Needs lots of work (on the idea) though.   Balance can easily be restored - one side has the launcher, the other side the crew and launch codes.

I really really want to give this a proper session but recenly I've been unable to cobble together the time.   Working on it.

[macguba]

Fuck it, this is more fun.   ;D

You may recall I attacked the farm west of Houdan.   We went south down the track and armour was called.      It turned out to be an Abrams and a BMP, with an infanty squad.    They were stationery:  cold in the mist.   I was planning the ambush when I heard tracks and somebody reported a T80.   There had beena chopper in the distance too (never close enough for a shot) so we withdrew south and east then through the woods to Houdan.    9am:  a convoy of Bradley, three trucks and Vulcan passes along the road heading south:  we let them go.

I can't remember why I have to search Houdan.   I noticed this before.  There are a lot of cutscenes with information.   The critical bit - like search houdan - is recorded on the map.   Non critical bits are lost, which is good if you are playing the mission in a wunner but bad if it's a week since your last session.    Possible solutions are links to other pages obviously, or slightly more exansive marker text, or a hint to suggest you create a "diary" using markers in the corner of the map.  (It is a flaw in the game that you cannot write notes to yourself except in this way, and that only objectives and not other text can be hidden.)

In any event its going to have to be the stealth approach because of all that armour at the top of the hill.   Oh for a GlockS!

Left my squad in the woods and searched the village - nice dead bodies - and while hiding in a bush got the option to take an M16 and grenades.  Ah ha, thinks I, there must be something on the other side of this wall.    Sure enough I get the cutscene.    Dialogue is fine but obviously some more shots required.    I assume you've tested what happens if you kill him, and I assume its nothing except you don't get the cutscene.   This is a MUCH better way of learnng about the trading.    I assume there is a backup way of finding out in case this goes wrong.     The loon joins you in safe - put him into aware.  Green tick.   I suppose it doesn't really matter why you have to search houdan - glad to see a reminder of the plot in the cutscene.     Since we didn't find the women there should be a follow up cutscene or radio message when I tell whoever it is that wanted to know about them.  That may be coming.

I'm sticking to the really obvious on this run (not my usual playing style) so its obvoiusly off to La Trinite.   Run east and north, finding airborne trees in teh woods east of 3.  

[macguba]

It's almost 9.30.    The weather is good with  light mist, visibiliy about 300m.    It is my intention to sneak into 3 and have a look around.    More after lunch.

Ahh, that's better.  *pats ever growing belly*

The layout in 3 is much better now, much classier.   I hope the fuel drums are full.   There seemed to be HKs and bizons in the southron shed but not the northron one, which is confusing.   Either make the two things identical or more different.   The fuse hint is now an anachronism:  it should obviously be a sound file "what's this?  mine fuses?  well these might come in handy" supported by a hint with details.    I got it in the middle of the square - it should be in a shed, ideally the first you go into although I appreciate that might mean another precious trigger.

The northron convoy arrived while I was mincing around and the loons who came into the square - after a very long interval - shot me.

(Aside:  over lunch I was pondering what to do next, since I've played this mission before and knew roughly what I'd find and what the consequences of various acts would be.  I've decided to keep it simple:   Stamenov probably killed my uncle; he certainly killed Tatyana; he is the brutal murderer of the two baddies (although I don't really know that, not havin gbeen to the north); he is the guy who disgusted my no. 9.    He is the bad guy, so I'm going to nibble at his strength until he is sufficiently weak that the northrons attack him.  

I can't remember if you can start the war that way, but the cutscene with 9 suggests that you can.   I may change this plan later, but that's my idea at the moment.   The point is that the baddies are not equal to me - the southrons are worse because they have had more effect on me.)

In the middle of exploring the town I got another savegame.   I know we've established this already but its completely unsatisfactory.

Picked up the savegame and waited for the convoy to depart.   They spend about ten minutes in the area, which is fine if its necessary or accidental but if you have delays trim it down a little.    Ran in, simply collected the fuses and the three vehicles, and legged it along the ridge back to the mountain lodge.   There wasn't much of a welcome.   :'(   A fire and some friendly faces would have been nice.  

The fuse instructions are not satsifactory for a mission of this quality.   Use the old coloured text and fill the screen.   More detail:  its not clear whether AP mines are detonated by vehicles.    Can you disarm mines?     Suggest marking positions on your map.    Can your loons use them or is it just you?    All stuff which you can figure out, but its nicer just to be told.

Evenutally the other two vehicles turned up at the lodge.   It's about 10.10 and the weather is closing in, its started to rain.   We rearm:  its an overcomplex and highly personal loadout but we have 10 rockets, 4 satchels, 1 M60, M21 and GlockS for me and silenced longs for the civvies and medic.    No AA because we're not going to be shooting down any choppers:  I want them to be able to report back and also trash each other's armour.   I remember reading something about being able to rearrange the squad but maybe that's wishful thinking or the next version.

So I'm left at the lodge, fully armed.   That seems like a stopping place.