Real War....

[Coldfire]

Ok, I'm just in the mood to spark up a little controversy so I think it's time to discuss the possibilities of the dirtier sides of war beeing shown in OFP... Including child soldiers and other such things.

I personally think that the Addons for things like Child Soldiers should be made so that  A) we actually can have Children running around the villages and cities of OFP. and B) If people want to show the real horrors of war, then they have the option of using these addons. Moraly it's a tough call but OFP presents a uniqe opertunity to show how horrible war can be... and after all, those who don't want to don't have to use those addons.

I think that two packs should be made: 1) a pack of child units on the Civi side that are just like the other civies, just for decorative purposes. And 2) a pack of armed children on the Ressistance side.

Just to make this clear right now: I DO NOT APPROVE OF THE USE OF CHILDREN IN WAR IN REAL LIFE! I just think that we should not turn away from grim truths in OFP. It's a millitary simulator, we should make it so that ALL the chalenges and moral dillemas that soldiers have to face in real life. If for no other reason it raises awareness of what happens in some countries that still don't respect human rights.

Feel free to hate me for posting this. But please play nice, you know the rules.

[Rapter]

i believe making children would need all new anims as they are roughly half the size of an ofp man. also on the subject of morality people seem perfectly happy with nukes, chemical, biological weapons even though in the real world they cause slow and often painfully agonising death. its all a fact of life, it may be wrong but it still happens.

[Coldfire]

i believe making children would need all new anims as they are roughly half the size of an ofp man. also on the subject of morality people seem perfectly happy with nukes, chemical, biological weapons even though in the real world they cause slow and often painfully agonising death. its all a fact of life, it may be wrong but it still happens.

I am well aware that they would need all new animations, I never said this would be an easy addon to make.

As for the morality issue, I completely agree... We have Nukes in OFP, we have chemical weapons... we have all sorts of nasty things why not child soldiers? Just because its a bad thing and horrible in real life doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Real life soldiers have to deal with it so why shouldn't a realistic millitary sim show it as well?

[Muddy Waters]

i wouldnÂ't feel to good shooting kids, even if it is only a game. I know about child soldiers, but i donÂ't think they have a place in games, not yet anyway while there are stiil child soliers in the world.
But thats just my opinion...

[Shalashaska]

This is a bad problem... In Africa there are a lot of Baby-Guerrilas  :'(  :'( which fights usually against Regular Governaments. But it is not beautiful to see these things... especially in a game like OFP.
Don't take care about Scripts, Animations and so on... just think about the matter: this is a War Game, and it is already Real enough.  Other people are not ready yet to see baby-killers inside PC games.
My opinion? No matter for me, you could also iclude women or girls (!) but OFP is very important and well accepted around the world. Don' shame it.  

[Lean Bear]

The only anims you would need to re-do would be the shooting-related ones; all others would be the same (trust me I tried it out).

The kids would only be there as, let's be honest here, cannon fodder. Their abilities with using a weapon are going to be servealy decreased as they are so tiny and probably don't have much (if any) training.

In real life, they'd probably miss almost every shot (unless uniquly talented) and stand in open ground, begging to be killed.

In terms of morality, I think every OFP gamer could handle having children soldiers in a mission, someone new to OFP (observing from the outside, if you will) would think its disgusting and shouldn't be alowed in a game. We see it all the time on the news anyway, so its not anything new.

[Coldfire]

I relize this sort of addon would make OFP a ugly place... But at the same time free choice comes into play. That's why I suggested two packs, one of regular children and one of child soldiers. If you don't want to use the child soldiers pack you could still have civilian children running around in game (I don't think anyone has a problem with that).

As for the issue about it feeling disturbing about shooting children I won't deny it's a horrible thing, but like I said OFP is a real-war game lets have realistic situations. I think that OFP is far to sanitized, and that and adon like this would add considerable amounts of realism to the game. To add to the realism they could include a script that would cause the AI to hesitate before firing... And find ways to include moral problems.

The horrible part is that yes, this sort of thing hapens. I'm not even talking about very yougn children I was thinking young teenagers (Not that that makes it alright). I ment 13-17 year olds who are drafted sort of thing (Though there have been much, much younger)... Like I said it's still not right. :'(

War is horrible, children are forced to fight. Are you gonna turn your back on the truth just because it's horrible? Not all battles are fought with tanks and hellicopters by adults-hell, not even half of them are-yet thats all that is shown in OFP.

[Noon416]

This issue has been raised many many times in here and other forums.
The end result?
In the end, people usually just "agree to disagree" and child addons never end up being made anyway by those that want too...

My main question to you would be: "How would this change the game in the view of public censor's/game-rating organisations?"
As an example, in New Zealand, if OFP started allowing people to commit 'virtual' violence against children, the censor's would certainly reevaluate the game's rating.

[Coldfire]

Thats a good point. But it's a user-made mod, I'm not sure what thier laws would say about that.

[Lean Bear]

Coldfire's right, it wouldn't be packaged with the game. If it was just an addon, then it would be in the user's intrests wether or not to download it and use it in OFP.

[Shalashaska]

Sorry, but i disagree. You (referring to every Mod-reviwers) vote the Mod alone, but you will finish criticizing ModMaker for creating it and maybe the same game.  It would be criticized by everyone...  :-\  :-\  

If you want to hear the whole question, there would be a good pourpose too: we can sensibilize people about Kids' presence in African (for example...) battlefields.  
I don't thing we're denying the (cruel) reality, hovewer, somebody is trying to hide it.  
Nothing more, nothing less.

About civilians kids, this is a good idea.
This is a kinda-strange idea, if you'll ever make a mod like this, what about making a scripts which makes mission instantly failed if you shoot against kids? In Red Hammer this happens in some missions...

[General Barron]

Maybe I'm just way too desensitized and all, coming from a land where a game that involves nothing other than crime and beating up people (Grand Theft Auto III) is like the best selling game... but I don't see how having children in OFP would be that 'horrible' or shocking, really.

The way I see it, we have all crossed the line already, in the fact that we entertain ourselves by pretending to be in a war. Surely war isn't any fun for the people who are actually dying in it, yet we sit here on our computers trying to get the most "realistic" experience we can...

Now, I'm not saying that is a bad thing, because obviously we all make a mental disconnect between the real thing, and what we are playing on the computer. It is the same thing that allows us to play as the Germans in a WWII mission, without feeling guilty about it. Why would it be any different with children?

[Lean Bear]

Very true. I agree with General Barron; we've been raised in a world where muggin old ladies in games is fun, so why should it be so shocking that there is a child holding a gun in OFP?

[nominesine]

I share General Baron's pragmatic views.

Now, I'm not saying that is a bad thing, because obviously we all make a mental disconnect between the real thing, and what we are playing on the computer. It is the same thing that allows us to play as the Germans in a WWII mission, without feeling guilty about it. Why would it be any different with children?

I met some child soldiers (mostly teenagers) when I worked as a reporter In Iraq after the fall of Bagdad, this spring. It wasn't a pretty sight. Nor was tthe sight of the non-combattant children pleasing to the eye.

But this is reality, and OFP is a game, where we step out of our normal roles, and in to the role of a virtual soldier, who becomes real only inside our imagination, and by taking this mental step we disconnect from our real world equivalents for a few hours.

And as we are speaking about moral issues, I think we are committing a more dangerous moral crime if we create an alternate imaginary world, where a war zone is a place where we only have to face armed and trained soldiers.

Then we create a situation where we can play guns on the computer, without facing the moral questions that a real soldier would face. If this was what I wanted I would play Battlefields or Counter Strike instead of OFP (because their graphics are more pleasing to the eye).

The reason I can spend hours in front of the computer, pretending to be a soldier in OFP, is that OFP has a realistic world feeling to me.

Like most of you people, I know every street in Lipany, I have looked at the landscape from the highest hill on malden and wondered what Kolgujev looked like before the buildings was bombarded into ruins.

OFP is a great game, because it produces almost real life feelings and thought's when we play it. That's what a good sim is all about. Every addon that adds an element of every day realism into the game increases this feeling of being in a real world. To me that enhances the gaming experience.

Children would be such an addon. And i believe it's up to every player if he want's to put the safety of the AI children before the mission objectives, or play the hard way and complete the mission at all costs. That's the beauty of the game. I believe it's called freedom of choice.

[Shalashaska]

About GTA3, it's just a comic game (I played and finished it, really enjoying it   ): in real life you can't run on city roads at 200km/h or carrying an M60 without being surrounded by police...           ;D

Here you shoot and kill enemies, like a real war, as everyone says (and I agree too), but it is a different kind of game, where you become a soldier (fully trained???) -thanks to a mental disconnection- and start moving on battlefields and so on, but facing only an enemy army or guerrillas... not killing civilians.

If you like this, why don't you make a mission when you go around Nogova killing civilians of all the towns?!?  
Funny, huh?!  ;D

But, when you finish playing, and you return to the "real world", do not even try to show any kind of angry feeling !    

About it, have you heard about --Vietnam 67' ShellShock-- (or something like that...) ?? The producers wanted to make a game which was the most similar to the real war, including EVERYTHING (and I mean everything). Hovewer, they weren't allowed, because they wanted to include razed bodies, lethal traps, civilians executions and r****s.  I don't know if the game has been released or not, but it was criticized a lot about it.  
Please, don't blame me if I say an example about a different game, but the matter is almost the same. THE TRUTH HURTS, and only a few accept it as it is.