Soldiers dont shoot over sandbags?

[DjTano]

Hey guys,

ive placed a few soldiers kneeling behind sandbags and they will not shoot at enemies unless they are 40-50m away, they even follow them with the gun, but just dotn shoot.

Does anybody know a way of fixing tht?

[bedges]

destroy the sandbags with a setdamage 1. it's an old problem, so glad that BI has fixed it since OFP... 

[Blanco]

Did you ever tried that in Arma Bedges?

When you setdammage 1 a woodfence it simple explodes and disappears...
Setpossing it into the ground doesn't work either, even when the unit is standing up!

It's a really stupid bug, in the Arma campaign there are several missions where units were placed behind a fence, but it's useless because they can see shit. I guess the view and fire lods need to be corrected.

[Baddo]

I think this warrants a bug report to BIS. It is a serious flaw but is to my understanding easily fixable as Blanco already guesses.

[Planck]

Setpossing it into the ground doesn't work either, even when the unit is standing up!

Whilst setdamage does indeed make them go 'poof' and disappear, setpossing them further into the ground does work fine.......I just tried it.


Planck

[JasonO]

I believe theres an extended Geometry Area to stop people walking over it. That's why if you lower it you can shoot over it because the invisible wall is gone

[WhisperOFP]

I think this warrants a bug report to BIS. It is a serious flaw but is to my understanding easily fixable as Blanco already guesses.

http://bugs.armed-assault.net/view.php?id=1634
Apparently already done

[Blanco]

Whilst setdamage does indeed make them go 'poof' and disappear, setpossing them further into the ground does work fine.......I just tried it.


Planck

Really? Not in my test  What did you do to make it work?

[Planck]

I was using version 1.08 of Arma, I used a radio trigger to run the command to setpos the "Fence" -0.5m.


Planck

[johnnyboy]

Blanco, I tried your sample, and the ai would not shoot over the wall.  I tried moving the setpos commands from the inits to a trigger, and that did not help either.  I have ARMA 1.08.

I have had decent luck with stacking "Obstacle - Saddle" objects (which is 2 meter long .13 meter high cement block) into a wall (5 or 6 high).  It looks decent (basic cement wall), and the AI will shoot over it.  Attached is a sample if anyone is interested.  You need EditorUpdate_v102 for this.

A picture is also attached.

Note that you can CreateVehicle EditorUpdate_v102 objects, and then stack them, so that you don't actually have to have the addon in your missions.  But I don't have time to build that into this example right now.

Edit:  Note that AI (and player) can "hop" over these stacked object walls when they are in the AIs move path (unlike a fence, which the AI will never go over.  I think hopping over a 1 meter high wall is actually desirable though...  It would look stupid though to have AI hopping over  a 2 meter high wall...

Edit 6/21/07:  Uploaded revised test mission where enemy units have been "reveal"ed to the ai behind the walls.  Seems to make them shoot over wall more often.

Edit 6/24/07:  Revised test mission again to setdammage the Obstacle Saddle objects to 1.  Re-uploaded it to attachment below (per ducus mucus input).  Now they fire on targets 100 meters out.

[Cheetah]

That looks good and is a good solution for permanent bases, but for a roadblock for example getting the sandbag to shoot from is better. As most armies will prefer sandbags over stones and cement for such walls.

Anyway, I'll definately use the example you posted sometime, it looks good.

[DucusSumus]

It's funny that this post is right here because I just recently came across this bug myself, and I thought, "I wonder if anyone at OFPEC has noticed this..."  Apparently, you have.

I'm really bummed to hear that there is no good solution to the problem, and I feel that this is a fairly severe bug.  ArmA already lacks the ability for units to truly dig in; denying AI the use of static cover is a serious problem.  What good is an enemy that can't use cover?

[bedges]

who needs cover when you can hit your enemy from 500 metres with a single shot, when only a toe is showing... 

[DucusSumus]

I've made a quick example mission on Rahmadi to demonstrate the severity of this problem.  It's attached.

[Mr.Peanut]

BI would have fixed this problem if they could, which makes me think it is an engine limitation.

[JasonO]

Objects have Geometry LOD's which make the AI know its there, makes us unable to walk through objects etc. I believe its because of this being at a certain height, the AI engine decides the only way to shoot someone on the other side, is to move around it. Therefore the AI can't actually see the enenmy.

[Mr.Peanut]

So if AI is behind sandbag they do not even track the enemy i.e. knowsabout = 0?

[Planck]

I think they do track/knowsabout the enemy, they just don't fire at him from distance.


Planck

[Mr.Peanut]

Well, if they knowsabout then a scripted solution would be possible wouldn't it? If a unit is told to doTarget and doFire, will it?

[Blanco]

True. In my test they clearly see the enemy because they are pointing their weapon to them. I didn't check how much they know about them with knowsabout tho...

[Mandoble]

Problem is that they will not fire with an obstable (or what they may consider an obstacle) between them and the target. As far as I remember a unitA doTarget unitB increases instantly the knowsabout of unit A about unit B to 3 (maximum), but that doesnt mean unitA will fire a single bullet to unitB.

IMO, best BIS can do with these obstacles is to make them "transparent" for the AI, so AI will fire, but bullets hitting the sandbags will be stopped. That would result in interesting chaotic firefights with enemy sending a hell of bullets against the sandbag that is protecting you.

[Blanco]

Yes, but the surprise element is gone, they will see the enemy.

 

[johnnyboy]

If a unit is told to doTarget and doFire, will it?

I've tested dotarget and dofire, and AI will target, but will not fire over the fence.

Here's one other interesting note on the cement walls (built by stacking "Obstacle - Saddle" objects...see earlier post by me).  The AI will hop right over these walls when the wall is in their path of movement.  This seems a little goofy, but since I stack them only about a meter high, I think its OK that the AI "jumps" over these walls.  For defenders, I place the defender AI precisely behind walls, and disableAI "MOVE" so they stay put, and won't jump the wall.  Attackers can jump the walls though, and that is OK really.  If attackers overwhelm the defenders, then overrun the walls that is a good thing I think.  But if you stack these 2 meters high and AI hopped the walls, that would look stupid...

I think I will test AI standing behind barrels, boxes, and cars to see if they shoot properly over those.  If they do shoot over them, then maybe this isn't an engine limitation, but a problem with how fences are configured.

[DucusSumus]

There's no way that this is an engine limitation.  I refuse to buy that.

So if AI is behind sandbag they do not even track the enemy i.e. knowsabout = 0?

Check my example mission.  The knowsAbout value is 4 (maximum); the AI will track you (i.e. point their weapons at you), but they won't fire until you are around 20 meters away, which is ridiculous.

IMO, best BIS can do with these obstacles is to make them "transparent" for the AI, so AI will fire, but bullets hitting the sandbags will be stopped. That would result in interesting chaotic firefights with enemy sending a hell of bullets against the sandbag that is protecting you.

That would be better than what we have currently, but ideally, BIS should simply fix the severe problem of AI not being able to differentiate between a two-foot sandbag wall and an infinitely tall barrier.  Seriously, this is just unacceptable for a game that touts itself as "the greatest combat simulation ever."

This needs to be fixed, or at the very least, we need access to the workaround that was available in OFP (i.e. walls that didn't explode into oblivion when their damage was set to 1).  "Let's go shoot each other in the open field" is hardly realistic, and it gets old fast. 

[Cheetah]

Well, the longer you play ArmA / OFP the more you feel the AI is the weakest element in the game. They are just stupid.

Don't know if it would help creating an addon, with the sandbag texture and somehow making the AI able to shoot over it?

[johnnyboy]

I made a little test mission with AI set behind various objects.  I set them all to setUnitPos "UP".  They had no problem targeting and shooting directly over the following objects:

- car
- barrel
- 4 barrel pallet
- dog house
- bench
- garbage can (1 meter high).

This leads me to believe there is no "system limitation" that causes sandbags to not be "shoot-over-able".  BIS will hopefully fix, or someone makes us a sandbag addon without the problem.

[DucusSumus]

Good info Johnny, thanks.

[Blanco]

Johnnyboy, I tried that testmission with the stacked saddle objects and they still don't fire. Sometimes the machinegunner fires upon the enemy when he's about 10- 20 meters away from it but that's really it.    I don't get it.

What version are you running (me 1.08) and what is the version of the editorupgrade1.02 you're using? (link perhaps)

 

[DucusSumus]

I can't even open your mission, Johnny.  I have editor update 105.

EDIT:
However, I have done some of my own experimentation, and I found that the AI can't fire over any object.  Even if you place a single "Obstacle - Saddle" down, which is a whole three inches tall, the AI still won't be able to fire over it -- standing up.  The "good" news is that you can use the old OFP workaround on these saddle objects (this setDamage 1), and they don't explode or disappear.  So the stack theory is still viable, but it's the ONLY option if you want the AI to use any sort of static defensive structure effectively.  Inexcusable, BIS.

[johnnyboy]

Johnnyboy, I tried that testmission with the stacked saddle objects and they still don't fire. Sometimes the machinegunner fires upon the enemy when he's about 10- 20 meters away from it but that's really it.

@Blanco:  I'm using ARMA 1.08.  That's strange, at least half the defenders would fire for me...

I just modified and re-uploaded the test mission in earlier post so that the attacking units are "reveal"ed to the wall defenders via trigger.  Seems to make them shoot a little more often.  Most wall defenders fire at close enemies initially (20 to 40 meters).  Then they have trouble targeting remaining attackers further out.  As player squad leader, calling targets for your squad seems to help some. 

Also, player is now setcaptive true, and starts looking at his team, so you have a better chance of observing the wall defenders fire.

It seems to work OK for lots of close targets (most defenders fire).  AI then gets stupid at target selection and firing after that.  Try it again.

Here's the link to BIS forum posting for Lowfly's Editor102:

http://www.flashpoint1985.com/cgi-bin/ikonboard311/ikonboard.cgi?s=df0cf5d5c9427c606794f169fc57146c;act=ST;f=70;t=59830;hl=editor+102

The link to the addon there is not working though...

I can't tell what version of the addon I have (lost the readme).

Edit:  Attached is another pic showing multiple firing (muzzle smoke and flashes).

Edit2: 

However, I have done some of my own experimentation, and I found that the AI can't fire over any object.  Even if you place a single "Obstacle - Saddle" down, which is a whole three inches tall, the AI still won't be able to fire over it -- standing up.   

@DucusMucus:  This is very strange.  In my test mission appended earlier, the AI absolutely fires over these stacked obstacles, and I did NOT setdammage 1 on them.  I'm using arma 1.08.  I set skill to maximum for all units...did you try that?

Also, you state that AI can't fire over any object, and I have proven to myself that they will fire over cars, barrels, garbagecans, dog houses, and benches. 

In this test I placed the various objects on the map, placed a unit behind each object, with Special set to NONE (so they wouldn't be in formation), and in the init I set "this disableAI "MOVE"; this setUnitPos "UP"; this setcombatmode "BLUE"".  I then placed an enemy 20 yards in front of each shooter, with their backs to my squad (behaviour careless, combatmode never fire).  I then, one-by-one, ordered each shooter to target the enemy in front of him and fire (which meant shoot over the object).  The AI targeted and fired every time.   I can upload this test as well if anyone wants.

Inexcusable, BIS.

Agreed!  Inoperable sandbags is totally weak.

[DucusSumus]

It might work at 20 yards -- they'll even fire over sandbags at 20 yards -- but 20 yards is hardly a realistic engagement range, and it allows an approaching enemy to easily pick off defending AI.  With the saddle/setDamage 1 trick, you can get the AI to fire at a realistic range (200 meters+).  I have no idea how BIS could have possibly coded it like this, but so far, this is the only thing I've found that works.

[DjTano]

With the saddle/setDamage 1 trick, you can get the AI to fire at a realistic range (200 meters+).

yea but doesnt tht destroy the sandbag?

[johnnyboy]

With the saddle/setDamage 1 trick, you can get the AI to fire at a realistic range (200 meters+).

Ducus is right, setdammage 1 dramatically improved the AI firing over the Obstacle Saddle cement walls.  I revised the example mission in earlier post if anyone wants to see it in action.  AI is now firing on enemies 100M plus down range.

yea but doesnt tht destroy the sandbag?

I believe Ducus is referring to the Obstacle Saddle object here.  Setdammage 1 trick does NOT work on sandbag (i believe), but it does work on the Obstacle saddle objects.

[johnnyboy]

I read over at the BIS forums that this is bug has been brought to the attention of developers and Suma assigned it to be worked on:

http://bugs.armed-assault.net/view.php?id=1634

So hopefully we won't have to use lame workarounds for too long...

[Dobermann]

[DjTano]

i noticed this problem with pillboxes too, cumon BIS gimme a break, this game is a pay-per-play beta! 

[Planck]

You would do better speaking to BI on their own forums, these forums are not part of the BI empire.

Try and stay on topic.


Planck

[Doolittle]

From Suma:

The bug is caused by the function responsible for friendly fire avoidance. Sandbags are considered civilian entities, and therefore friendly, and AI therefore hesitates to fire close to them unless the enemy is very near.

Until we provide a fix, a workaround for addon or mod makers might be to create an addon with alternative sandbags represented with a simulation "camera" instead of usual "house", and use such sandbags in the mission instead of the default ones. Such workaround would have some limitations (sandbags not destructible and not targetable by AI), but it still might be useful.

Another workaround might be to create them with a simulation house, but non-destructible (DestructNo), and then use setDamage 1 on them.

[Dobermann]

http://bugs.armed-assault.net/view.php?id=1634