Advertisement

Author Topic: copyright on music  (Read 4527 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline dmakatra

  • Members
  • *
  • Better known as Armsty
copyright on music
« on: 09 Apr 2003, 21:14:13 »
IÂ'm just asking, but do you guys who use custom music have some kinda deal with the group. If OFPEC host that mission and the mission is illegal, OFPEC is in deep trouble right?

Offline Messiah

  • Honourary OFPEC Patron & Drinking Buddy of Wolfsbane
  • Honoured Contributor
  • ***
  • OFPEC Veteran
    • Project UK Forces
Re:copyright on music
« Reply #1 on: 10 Apr 2003, 17:58:56 »
hmmm... well i would be VERY suprised if any of the custom music featured in the missions would have gained permission from their creators...

sefe is the resident law guru... he would be able to answer ya problem most likely.
Proud Member of the Volunteer Commando Battalion

asmodeus

  • Guest
Re:copyright on music
« Reply #2 on: 10 Apr 2003, 23:31:49 »
Yeah, I'm no expert in Law either...

But I look at it like this.  A band member or their lawyer (or somebody that knows them) would have to play the mission to find out and then they would have to care about it enough to start a lawsuit..  Not to mention the fact that they are getting free advertising around the world.  (If I heard a good bands' song in OFP and found out most of their songs were good, I'd buy the cd)

So... IMO you are safe as long as you don't use Metallica.   :P  

Asmo

P.S.  If the music industry is really worried about music being sent out for free, I feel they would focus on the Kazaa users before OFP players...   ;)   ;)

Offline Messiah

  • Honourary OFPEC Patron & Drinking Buddy of Wolfsbane
  • Honoured Contributor
  • ***
  • OFPEC Veteran
    • Project UK Forces
Re:copyright on music
« Reply #3 on: 11 Apr 2003, 00:09:03 »
hehehe.... but there are so many loop holes in the law, that they cannot actually target kazaa itself - because it is Peer to peer, it means that all the 4 million or so users online at one time are all breaking the law by sharing the files - if you read the kazaa agreement, it does state that you may only share files after gaining consent from their owners etc... and of coyrse, they kow it wont happen - but its very hard to target kazaa, as it is basically 4 million people worldwide  ::)

as for music in missions, yeah, one song in a mission is little... its a pointless waste of time to carry out a law suit.... and in most missions, the music is cut short, edited etc, so it would be very unlikely that the complete vesion of the song was downloaded...

and, i once emailed mute records and asked them if i could use a moby track in a mission - i told them it would be highly edited and shortened, and no money was made etc - gave them full credit etc - they were quite happy to let me use it.

because the reality of how insignificant these missions with music in are compared to other forms of music piracy etc, i dont think there is any danger of OFPEC being sued because of the odd music track...

*crosses fingers*

 ::)
Proud Member of the Volunteer Commando Battalion

Offline toadlife

  • OFPEC Old Skool
  • Former Staff
  • ****
  • Official OFP Editing Center Toad
    • toadlife.net
Re:copyright on music
« Reply #4 on: 11 Apr 2003, 00:21:18 »
Yeah just don't use Metallica or Eminem and you should be ok.  :P

In Operation LoJack I used a NIrvana song, but not just any NIrvana song. I used a song called "Blandest". Blandest was recorded back in 1988, and was being considered for a single, but as the story goes, Kurt CObain was embaraseed by his vocals (Download the mission, upbo it and listen), he ordered the mastertapes destroyed.

Apparently his orders were carried out because later when he wanted to inlcude it on "Incesticide" he couldn't because there were no mastertapes!

The song was included on the many demotapes Nirvana sent to the big record companies, so relatively good sounding copies survived, which is how I have a copy of the song.

Even though the song doesn't officially exist, I'm sure record companies still ownt he rights to the recording, so I emailed subpop records asking who owned the rights to the song and if I could use it, but they never replied.

So I said f***it and used the song.
"Whenever you want information on the 'net, don't ask a question; just post a wrong answer." -- Cancer Omega.

Offline Messiah

  • Honourary OFPEC Patron & Drinking Buddy of Wolfsbane
  • Honoured Contributor
  • ***
  • OFPEC Veteran
    • Project UK Forces
Re:copyright on music
« Reply #5 on: 11 Apr 2003, 00:31:46 »
well, at least you tried...  ;D
Proud Member of the Volunteer Commando Battalion

deaddog

  • Guest
Re:copyright on music
« Reply #6 on: 11 Apr 2003, 01:38:25 »
The copyright system is basically there to prevent someone else from profiting on the music (or whatever).  Since I doubt anyone here is making a dime on their missions, the copyright holder shouldn't have a problem with it.  Besides, the music I have used, I have purchased.  If I can't find something to use from my 100+ cd or dvd collection, then I'm WAY too picky  ;D

Eagle

  • Guest
Re:copyright on music
« Reply #7 on: 16 Apr 2003, 23:45:40 »
I hate to surprise you guys but companies can and will come after you if they find you've infringed their copyright.

In the Sports Car GT(Racing Sim by EA) community, addons have been coming out of the woodwork for years, there are thousands of cars and tracks available for download. Quite awhile ago, someone decided to try and recreate the Transam Race Car series, they painted up a bunch of cars including a Corvette C5R with Tommy Bahama livery. As a result Tommy Bahama issued a cease and desist letter which is no longer viewable right now, but the substance of the thread is still there.

New web site generates fan letter from Tommy Bahama

My advice is tread lightly and don't OVERTLY make the creators of the music known to all. Keep it on the DL, if you know what i mean ;)
« Last Edit: 16 Apr 2003, 23:47:02 by Eagle »

Offline toadlife

  • OFPEC Old Skool
  • Former Staff
  • ****
  • Official OFP Editing Center Toad
    • toadlife.net
Re:copyright on music
« Reply #8 on: 18 Apr 2003, 10:39:46 »
That Tommy Bahama thing was trademark issue, which is a bit different from music copyrights.

http://www.inta.org/basics/tmfaqsD.shtml#7

Companies must go after trademark violators, or they risk losing their trademark. I don't think the same goes for music recordings.

Still, being discreet, and not using "top 40" music is a good idea.  ;)
"Whenever you want information on the 'net, don't ask a question; just post a wrong answer." -- Cancer Omega.

Anmac

  • Guest
Re:copyright on music
« Reply #9 on: 22 Apr 2003, 16:17:14 »
Ok, this may not be the "law" but it's the rules I use to make myself feel better.

1.  I am NOT selling the mission or the music
2.  I NEVER use a whole song.  30 seconds is usually enough.
3.  When I went to high school our library had copyright laws up next to the photocopier, which stated you could use up to 10% without permission.
4.  Yes, I'm known as Anmac, but not THAT Anmac.

 8)

PFC_Mike

  • Guest
Re:copyright on music
« Reply #10 on: 05 May 2003, 02:56:50 »
Most RIAA lawyers and lobbyists go through life acting like sticks get shoved up their asses every five minutes. If they had the time, of course they'd sue.

But from a practical standpoint, they won't, so who cares? Second, who are you hurting? Is it really likely that someone will download your mission just so they can avoid buying the CD?

RP

  • Guest
Re:copyright on music
« Reply #11 on: 09 Jun 2003, 09:36:08 »
Laws can be diferent depending on where you are, but (beeing no law expert), i figure it's very much based on common sense. If you're making a profit out of somebody's copyrighted work, expect them to come after you, to get their share. Regarding OFP missions, i really don't think someone would bother to pick on us, considering we're not making money out of it.
Like PFC stated, it would be ridiculous to assume somebody would download a mission instead of buying a CD.
Having said that, i think there's a global industry paranoia, regarding "ilegal copys" of copyrighted material. I remember the days of vinyl recordings and audio cassetes (yes, i am ancient), and nobody giving a sht about us recording tapes, from whatever source we could get our hands on...
Now, with digital recording and all the software at our disposal, we can get what used to be called "first generation" copys of audio CDs, (meaning there's no degradation on the copyed material), and that's when the paranoia started.
Speaking for myself, if i realy like a music CD or a game, or any software that i may have "ilegaly" aquired, i will just go and buy it (yes, i do it all the time). Just the same way i used to do when i used to record some tapes from the radio and liked the music, and headed for the shop to buy it cuz i wanted to have all the goodies that would come with the original.
In the end, it all comes to balance and common sense, no need to go crazy about "is this legal- am i steping on someone's toes-are they going to come after me".
Allthogh like i said, i think there's an intalled industry paranoia, most of the times we can prety much be shure about what side of the law we are walking (regardless of moral issues, cuz that's another matter), if we take the time to give it a thought.
Well, i just felt i would share my thougts on the subject with you, and hope i'm not boring you with my rumbling...
c u arround,

RP.

Offline Sefe

  • OFPEC Patron
  • Former Staff
  • ****
Re:copyright on music
« Reply #12 on: 09 Jun 2003, 12:09:05 »
Laws can be diferent depending on where you are, but (beeing no law expert), i figure it's very much based on common sense.

Well, laws can be different depending on where you are. But as far copyright law is concerned, you can expect that it's very similar in all important countries. The reason is the Berne Convention and other international treaties about copyright protection.

And you're not only breaching copyright if you sell protected work. You're breaching it whenever you use it without the consent of the author. Music, literature, paintings, photographs, films, computer programs etc. are intellectual property. A good rule of thumb is that you should treat intellectual property the same way as you would treat material property. If someone steals your computer, he violates your property right. You don't give a fuck if he wants to sell it or keep it for himself, do you?

I too used to take copyright rather lightly in the past. But whoever has worked hardly a piece of art on or invested a lot of money in a computer program etc. and see his work disrespected or stolen will know how it that feels.

Bottom line: nothing gives you the right to use someone elses's work without his consent. There is nor a legal, neither a moral justification for that. You're simply benefiting from someone else's work without having contributed the slightest bit to it. The one who created the work is the one who owns the work. And the one who owns the work has every right in the world to forbid it's use or to take money for it. If he didn't release his work, you would have no chance of using (or stealing) it. You should rather thank the author than disrespect his rights.

And you need the explicit permission of the author. If he doesn't answer, bad luck. He doesn't have to and if he doesn't he hasn't given you a permission. Take my rule of thumb and compare it to material property. If someone writes you a letter and asks for your permission to use your car, you'd be outraged if he used it with the reason that you didn't answer to his request.

Kaliyuga

  • Guest
Re:copyright on music
« Reply #13 on: 09 Jun 2003, 20:24:29 »
 Well.. this is an interesting subject so I'll just toss my two cents in.. ;D

here in the U.S.  the fourteenth amendment to the constitution guarantees equal protection under the law:

Quote
Equality of protection under the law implies that in the administration of criminal justice no person shall be subject to any greater or different punishment than another in similar circumstances

this is like if you are at a party with 30 friends and everyone is underage but drinking still....   if the police show up  and they do not arrest everyone there.. they can't really arrest anyone (well they can...but good luck getting the charges to stick)

it's like the Kazaa thing... if you don't bust everyone then you're discriminating against the people you do bust....  

you could easy argue... "well if there are 4 million other people doing it then you must have picked me out of the crowd because  I have dark hair and green eyes" ::)


Regarding Copyright its self...  I was always under the impression that the World Intellectual Property Organization  (WIPO)   which is an arm of the UN was responsible for enforcing copyrights....  

but if your nation isn't a part of the UN there's really not much that can be done about it .....


Anmac

  • Guest
Re:copyright on music
« Reply #14 on: 10 Jun 2003, 06:16:53 »
Lookout for the pot holes.

 ;)

Offline Sefe

  • OFPEC Patron
  • Former Staff
  • ****
Re:copyright on music
« Reply #15 on: 10 Jun 2003, 11:00:09 »
here in the U.S.  the fourteenth amendment to the constitution guarantees equal protection under the law: this is like if you are at a party with 30 friends and everyone is underage but drinking still....   if the police show up  and they do not arrest everyone there.. they can't really arrest anyone (well they can...but good luck getting the charges to stick)

it's like the Kazaa thing... if you don't bust everyone then you're discriminating against the people you do bust....  

you could easy argue... "well if there are 4 million other people doing it then you must have picked me out of the crowd because  I have dark hair and green eyes" ::)

The police represents administrational authority. Civil rights are there to protect the citizens from unwarranted discrimination by the government, not by another citizen. Copyright law, however, is civil law. Civil law generally is about the relationship between citizens and/or (non-governmental) organizations. So the 14th amendmend won't help you very much when a copyright holder sues you and not someone else. He has the right to choose who he wants to sue and who not, even if it's just because you have dark hair and green eyes. How often in your life did you refuse a request because you didn't "like someone's face"? Well, I've done that (although it never was because things like dark hair and green eyes) and I'm sure everyone else has, too.
 
Regarding Copyright its self...  I was always under the impression that the World Intellectual Property Organization  (WIPO)   which is an arm of the UN was responsible for enforcing copyrights....
 

Well, copyright is protected by the national law in the first place. Unlike the European Union, the UN is not a supranational organization and so there is no genuine UN legislation. The WIPO doesn't directly enforce copyright law (more information about the WIPO's function can be found here). There are international treaties about copyright law (many international treaties don't involve the UN at all), but according to inernational law they have to be transformed into national law (this transformation is called "ratification") to be valid for a country. At the end it all comes down on national law again (and it will always be like this as long as we have souvereign countries and not a "world government").

but if your nation isn't a part of the UN there's really not much that can be done about it .....

179 countries are currently members of the WIPO. You'll hardly find one that isn't. And even if you do, they'll most probably have national laws about copyright protection.

Long story short: If you use copyright protected material without permission, the copyright holder can get you.
« Last Edit: 10 Jun 2003, 12:14:06 by Sefe »

RP

  • Guest
Re:copyright on music
« Reply #16 on: 10 Jun 2003, 19:40:00 »
If someone steals your computer, he violates your property right. You don't give a f**k if he wants to sell it or keep it for himself, do you?

Well Sefe, you're right about the computer, but i wouldn't mind if someone used my music in a OFP mission without my permission, if that person wasn't making a profit out of it (although i would like to be credited for that).
Afterall, this comunity is only possible because a lot of great people share their work and knolige (that includes all of you guys here in OFPEC as well as all the others everywhere, who give their contribution to the OFP comunity for free).

I too used to take copyright rather lightly in the past. But whoever has worked hardly a piece of art on or invested a lot of money in a computer program etc. and see his work disrespected or stolen will know how it that feels.

Don't get me wrong, being an author myself, i don't take copyright lightly. And even in situations copyright laws may not aply, i belive that moral issues are important and relevant.
I may have given the idea that i aprove abusive use of someone else's work or intelectual property, but that is not the case.
Thanks for the link to Berne Convention, i'll make shure i read it carefully.

Regards,

RP.

Offline Sefe

  • OFPEC Patron
  • Former Staff
  • ****
Re:copyright on music
« Reply #17 on: 11 Jun 2003, 02:06:38 »
Well Sefe, you're right about the computer, but i wouldn't mind if someone used my music in a OFP mission without my permission, if that person wasn't making a profit out of it (although i would like to be credited for that).

That's why I use to add a text in my readme files that allows everyone to use my work (scripts, adddons etc.) for non-commercial purposes as long as he credits me. ;) If you add such a disclaimer, you explicitly grant permission and everything is fine.

Oh, and as for the link, you're welcome. But keep in mind that it's only one of many international treaties about intellectual property (the WIPO administers no less than 23 of them) and so reading it does give you valuable insights but doesn't make you an expert. :)
« Last Edit: 11 Jun 2003, 02:14:16 by Sefe »

Offline toadlife

  • OFPEC Old Skool
  • Former Staff
  • ****
  • Official OFP Editing Center Toad
    • toadlife.net
Re:copyright on music
« Reply #18 on: 12 Jun 2003, 08:30:40 »
Be up front and honest (not that record companies really care)...



...and don't try and hoard your code




...if it's good, people will probably use it anyway.
:)
"Whenever you want information on the 'net, don't ask a question; just post a wrong answer." -- Cancer Omega.

Offline Messiah

  • Honourary OFPEC Patron & Drinking Buddy of Wolfsbane
  • Honoured Contributor
  • ***
  • OFPEC Veteran
    • Project UK Forces
Re:copyright on music
« Reply #19 on: 12 Jun 2003, 09:32:54 »
talking about music toady - where did you get your pissing sound effect for lojac?

lol

cheers.
Proud Member of the Volunteer Commando Battalion

Offline toadlife

  • OFPEC Old Skool
  • Former Staff
  • ****
  • Official OFP Editing Center Toad
    • toadlife.net
Re:copyright on music
« Reply #20 on: 12 Jun 2003, 21:37:56 »
Good ole' fashioned American ingenuity.  :P ;D

I filled up a pitcher with water went outside and poured it into a bush and recorded it to tape with a $15 tape recorder. Then I just recorded the tape onto my PC, did a little sound processing.

For the sound of Moore being hit with the butt of the rifle in the intro, I laid the tape recorder near my couch and beat on the couch with some sort of object. That sound effect was a tough one to get right (it still never sounded very realistic).

If you let the outro keep playing after the screen goes black (about 5 seconds after the music is stopped and screen goes black), you'll hear a little sound clip of Devilchaser trying to make the 'smacking' sound for me. It's quite amusing.

I put the DVC sound clip in at the very end, knowing that most people would press escape as soon as the screen went black, and therefore would never hear it the sound clip - an Easter egg. :)
« Last Edit: 12 Jun 2003, 21:39:43 by toadlife »
"Whenever you want information on the 'net, don't ask a question; just post a wrong answer." -- Cancer Omega.

Offline Messiah

  • Honourary OFPEC Patron & Drinking Buddy of Wolfsbane
  • Honoured Contributor
  • ***
  • OFPEC Veteran
    • Project UK Forces
Re:copyright on music
« Reply #21 on: 12 Jun 2003, 22:57:45 »
could u... ermmm... lend me the pissing sound  ;) would really appreciate it  :D
Proud Member of the Volunteer Commando Battalion

Offline toadlife

  • OFPEC Old Skool
  • Former Staff
  • ****
  • Official OFP Editing Center Toad
    • toadlife.net
Re:copyright on music
« Reply #22 on: 12 Jun 2003, 23:13:19 »
I don't have the source wav files, but here is the .ogg from the mission. You can allways convert it to wave and edit it if you need too.

http://toadlife.net/uploads/piss.zip
"Whenever you want information on the 'net, don't ask a question; just post a wrong answer." -- Cancer Omega.

Offline Messiah

  • Honourary OFPEC Patron & Drinking Buddy of Wolfsbane
  • Honoured Contributor
  • ***
  • OFPEC Veteran
    • Project UK Forces
Re:copyright on music
« Reply #23 on: 12 Jun 2003, 23:24:30 »
thats fine... just need the idea of pissing - lol.

thanx alot :thumbsup:
Proud Member of the Volunteer Commando Battalion

RP

  • Guest
Re:copyright on music
« Reply #24 on: 13 Jun 2003, 01:29:53 »
I think Toadlife has made a great job with those cutscenes. ;)
But, back to the topic...
How do you feel about the EBAR (edited beyond all recognition) aproach? (ok, i just made that up myself)
I know it's very much used in music and sound industry (specialy for sound effects). The point being if the author of the source material doesn't recognise it anymore we don't have a legal matter, i supose. But what about ethics? Should credits be given to the source material?
I gess in much cases as you over edit something, the source can become less relevant, because the editing work can become a creative process in its own right (or is it?). ???
This matter has been under discussion for years in sound magazines, and i don't know where it stands by now.
Any thougts?

Offline Sefe

  • OFPEC Patron
  • Former Staff
  • ****
Re:copyright on music
« Reply #25 on: 13 Jun 2003, 11:51:04 »
Legally, the answer is simple. If you modify another one's work, beyond recognition or not, he retains his copyright on that work. Ie. you still need his permission to use the modified work. However, you have the copyright on th modifications (as long as they're result of some creative process), which means that he wouldn't be able to publish the modified work without your permission. But still you need his permission, there's no way around it.

PsychoSniper

  • Guest
Re:copyright on music
« Reply #26 on: 21 Jul 2003, 13:19:44 »
awww the UN, what a bunch of incopetents. If they r in chrge then Pirate all U want.

Offline Messiah

  • Honourary OFPEC Patron & Drinking Buddy of Wolfsbane
  • Honoured Contributor
  • ***
  • OFPEC Veteran
    • Project UK Forces
Re:copyright on music
« Reply #27 on: 21 Jul 2003, 21:09:01 »
and that would get us where?
Proud Member of the Volunteer Commando Battalion