OFPEC Forum

Missions Depot => Arma3 - Single Player Beta Testing => Topic started by: Undeceived on 29 Jun 2018, 22:55:16

Title: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands
Post by: Undeceived on 29 Jun 2018, 22:55:16
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1009784488655601705/1199434559910072440/BLneu_sw.png?ex=65c2877b&is=65b0127b&hm=812b6c2d118de24dc65f2512518eb7ab0213f1b7dce25752837b964db017c031&)


BLACK LANDS



Version: 0.7 beta (released January 23, 2024, two small updates on Jan 24)
Author: Undeceived
Game type: SP campaign



Description:
After the Russian army takes control over Chernarus, Tomas Cerny and his best friend Dimitri, among other war-survivors, form up a resistance movement. At first, the group is able to cause harm to the Russian intruders, but little by little, Tomas sees the strength of the movement crumbling and deteriorating. As eventually Dimitri is killed in an Russian ambush and Tomas, all at once, loses everything he loves and cares for, the resistance fighter finds himself all alone, devitalized and a broken man. In his darkest hour, Tomas is suddenly contacted by an agent of the U.S. intelligence, who is able to light up a small flame in the young Chernarussian again. Tomas learns that there are still people who want to rise up against the Russians. He is able to find new courage, meets new friends and goes on the most difficult journey of his life. He passes through adventures and defeats, experiences friendship as well as betrayal and faces survival and death.



Features:



Changelog:
V. 0.5 (alpha)
V. 0.6 (alpha)
V. 0.7 (beta) (updated January 23, 2024, two small updates on Jan 24)


Requirements:
>> AUTOMATIC subscription of all needed SW mods:

Download this html file (packed in a ZIP file) (https://1drv.ms/u/s!AmEE7NADjPPbyjUFXqMpdzTPPR5c?e=V4Rq5t) and drag & drop it into the official Arma 3 launcher. The launcher will offer you the automatic subscription of all required mods.



Beta testers:

Gruntage, Clayman, mathias_eichinger, savedbygrace, Casualty, Inlesco, Mad_Cheese, SaOk, bedges, Crisis, [Public1001] Fischer



Download:
Read the ReadMe for installation instructions.

>> Black Lands v. 0.7 (beta) (425 MB) @ OneDrive (https://1drv.ms/u/s!AmEE7NADjPPbyjuBGXhc_PWJWzJ1?e=AvgQHf)

Title: Re: Black Lands (Arma 3)
Post by: Gruntage on 29 Jun 2018, 23:03:13
Now I know what I'll be doing tomorrow  :D

Don't think I've had the pleasure of playing any of your projects yet  :)
Title: Re: Black Lands (Arma 3)
Post by: Undeceived on 29 Jun 2018, 23:06:12
Oh, I wasn't expecting such an early reply. :D :D

Thanks, Gruntage. I hope everything works somehow. There shouldn't be any showstoppers at least.
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands (Arma 3)
Post by: Gruntage on 30 Jun 2018, 19:51:12
Alrighty let's get to it. It's been a long time since I last wrote one of these.

So just as a preface, I never played this during Arma2 (never actually played Arma2) so I have no idea what I'll be faced with, it will be an entirely new experience.

Intro

First off, wow. That opening cutscene was certainly a feat of cinema. Very well chosen camera angles but even more so was the music. It set the scenes brilliantly. It's very hard to critique this, but I suppose the only thing (literally) that's missing is voice acting. I know it can be very difficult to implement and most of us don't exactly have a room a voice actors at our disposal.

I did however receive a couple of error messages during the cutscene, but they didn't cause the intro to stop. This message appeared twice: "no entry 'bin\config.bin/CUP_D_RadioProtocol_CZ_ACR/SentCovering.'. I don't know what might cause such a message to appear...I'm sure I installed all the addons listed. Might just be on my end but I thought I'd mention it anyway.

Death Came Upon Me

Very dramatic start - though I was kinda expecting Dimitri to get shot   :D An interesting starting mission; good atmosphere with very strong cinema once again. I suppose I'd put more patrols in to increase the pressure and suspense but the mission is fine as it is. The sense of hopelessness does come across very well. If I was being really picky I'd go for harsher weather for emphasis - heavy rain or perhaps just the sound of the wind. For me atmosphere is everything  :D

As for the outro, again very dramatic and quite gut-wrenching as well. Very good start.

Awakening

I always like stealth missions especially those of the urban kind. Using the buildings as cover was pretty cool. I have to admit I was expecting something a bit more challenging. But then it could easily become overpowering and frustrating if you did increase the patrol count. Perhaps it's down to personal taste.

Good cinema although there were a few spelling mistakes and I did chuckle at the 'perforated by bullets' phrase...it sounds like surgery  :D I think you need to phrase that so it sounds more harrowing and not quite so clinical or procedural. How about 'riddled with bullets', or 'cut to pieces by rifle fire'?

The only other thing that might improve this mission is music. Adding music to missions is also down to personal taste; same say that music is best left to the cutscenes. I personally think music can do well in missions so long as it doesn't interfere with gameplay. It should act as a supplement. I'm not suggesting having Hans Zimmer blaring out of my headphones but just something suspenseful to enhance the stealth aspect. However, if you prefer to keep music out of the missions then I totally get it; it's down to opinion.


Anyway, that's all I can do for now. I'll resume my testing tomorrow. So far though it's very good. Great atmosphere and it's certainly making me want to play more of it. I haven't played many campaigns to be honest but this is one of the best. I hope this feedback is useful to you  :good:


Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands (Arma 3)
Post by: Undeceived on 30 Jun 2018, 20:36:26
Perfect, thanks a lot, Gruntage! Very useful!

That script error "SentCovering" is something you'll encounter more often - it's a (known) bug in CUP. They will fix it eventually... Other than that there are some scripts errors coming out of another external script (they'll appear when you die).

Your suggestions to improve the atmosphere are great (weather in mission 1, music in 2) - I'll definitely look into that.

The patrols in Awakening are random, so I think you had some luck in avoiding them. And yeah, once they spot you, it gets uncomfortable.

On these spelling mistakes: YES, please give me more suggestions and corrections! No native speaker, so there's much room for improvement in this matter...... :dry:
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands (Arma 3)
Post by: Gruntage on 01 Jul 2018, 10:11:34
Quote
That script error "SentCovering" is something you'll encounter more often - it's a (known) bug in CUP. They will fix it eventually... Other than that there are some scripts errors coming out of another external script (they'll appear when you die).

Fair enough; thought I'd missed an addon or something.

Quote
The patrols in Awakening are random, so I think you had some luck in avoiding them. And yeah, once they spot you, it gets uncomfortable.

That makes sense. Perhaps on future playthroughs I'll have a different experience.

Anyway, it's time to resume testing. So moving on to....

Starting to Inflame Again

Good briefing with enough info for the task ahead. The music is exactly what I had in mind for the previous mission (although maybe use a different track for the mission before). Think this one was used in the Arma Rahmadi campaign intro; always liked the music there.

So, onto the gameplay. Unfortunately I didn't get to complete the mission. Sadly it seems that the radio savegame feature is a bit of double-edged sword..it doesn't allow you to pick an earlier save game whereas the in-game save does. This resulted in essentially ending up in a position I couldn't advance or retreat from without being gunned down. Doesn't help that the enemies have the accuracy of hawks. Even when I was in the long grass they had no trouble one-shotting me.

At least when you have a selection of earlier save games to choose from it's a bit more forgiving if a strategy doesn't quite work out. As it is at the moment you have to commit to a strategy and if it fails (which it did for me), I have to start the mission from the start. Bit frustrating as it wasn't exactly a cakewalk escaping the city. It's probably not so bad if you know the mission and you know the right strategy to follow but if it's your first time and it's trial and error and you can't rectify a mistake then the fun element drains away pretty quick.

It just seems like the radio savegame feature is a bit redundant given you have in-game saving anyway. I thought that on the previous mission.

I'll have another go at the mission later but this time I'll use the in game save rather than the radio. Aside from the occasional 'sent.covering' error message the mission seems to work fine...though I haven't seen all of it.

I probably would prefer it if the boat ride was skipped to be honest. Perhaps if you were to have the dialogue in a cutscene and then skip the rest of the journey?

 I don't mind long missions but having to start the mission again and go through everything again doesn't really excite me.

I hope I don't come across as overly critical. I can be quite blunt at times. It's a good concept. Hope you find this useful.

 
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands (Arma 3)
Post by: Undeceived on 01 Jul 2018, 12:08:54
Don't worry, I'm used to harsher criticism (which is good too as long it's not destructive). :D

The savegame issue is a good point and you have put it into words perfectly. In this (and some of the next) mission(s) you have to go with one strategy but it could fail and you'd have to restart, which indeed is frustrating. Or even more frustrating is when the AI or perhaps a bug messes it up. :D
I finally have to find out how to make the saveGame command save into the user-made save slots. Right now - as you say - it overwrites the previous slot which is the problem...

Thanks for bringing this problem up - I always noticed this but never was able to realize it. :good:

The trip to the light tower is skipped after a dialogue. It's not a cutscene but it skips a very long drive in the rather slow lifeboat. :)

And please keep in mind to note down odd / wrong expressions so I can improve them. Thanks!
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands (Arma 3)
Post by: Gruntage on 01 Jul 2018, 13:13:07
So I came back to the mission for another try and I was able to start the mission from the when the boat drops me off. I was fully expecting to have to start the mission from scratch so this was a welcome surprise. Gave me an opportunity to rethink my strategy. I pretty much concluded that going to the overlook was just asking for trouble, so I decided to approach the site from the trees to the east.

One thing I did in order to make things more manageable was to put my terrain detail all the way to low so that the long grass doesn't obstruct my view too much. Unfortunately the AI can see through the grass whereas I can't so it does make for a rather unbalanced playing field. This is just how the game is and isn't your fault.

So I made more progress this time around and I was able to secure the site of enemies. However, when the two hostages joined me they were unable to leave the building via either entrance and were subsequently gunned down by the APC. Despite my best efforts of trying to move them out of the shed, they just didn't want to move. This unfortunately is a showstopper. I thought that by trying to get them to board a vehicle it would work but it seems all the vehicles nearby are locked. Perhaps teleporting them outside would work?

Hope this helps
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands (Arma 3)
Post by: Undeceived on 01 Jul 2018, 13:31:16
Hmm... They should leave through the back door (the one they're close to). At least this is what my experience always was.

But ok, I'll setpos them outside and put some objects around the exit so they're a bit covered until the player commands them elsewhere.

Thanks!

I'll see if I can fix and upload this later today. In that case I think you will be able to continue from the start of this mission, a complete restart of the campaign won't be needed.
I'd recommend you not to skip the mission via cheat though, because at the end your gear will be saved for the next mission.

I'll also check out if I can tune down the AI's skill a bit more. Maybe there are units in these missions where I forgot to do it. The AI seeing through the grass really is a PITA.

Btw. this mission is actually two missions. After the Chernogorsk part the other one starts.




EDIT:

Updated the third mission (prisoner rescue) some minutes ago. Please re-download from the first post (didn't change the version number as to small fix).

Now the guys are setpossed to the back door and should move out of the compound without problems.

You should be able to rewind to this mission without problems.



EDIT 2:

Btw. could someone with admin powers give me the permission to double post? That would make things easier to see updates in the threads. Thanks. :)
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands (Arma 3)
Post by: h- on 02 Jul 2018, 17:17:41
I'm the most powerful thing here and I can't  :D
The double-post stopper settings only allow for setting up the delay between posts, in days. Currently set to 1 day.

I guess I could disable it, it's not like we have massive traffic  ::)
Will turn it on after the first spam bot that posts 800 consecutive posts in a thread...  :P

EDIT:
Hmm, I should probably test this campaign too...
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands (Arma 3)
Post by: Undeceived on 02 Jul 2018, 18:56:48
Ok, thanks!

Quote
Hmm, I should probably test this campaign too...
Maybe you should. :D If you're up for another bunch of nasty bugs (probably), you're most welcome! :P
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands (Arma 3)
Post by: Undeceived on 02 Jul 2018, 18:57:21
Testing double posting.

Edit: Yay, works! Thanks again. :good:
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands (Arma 3)
Post by: Gruntage on 02 Jul 2018, 20:52:55
Hello again, it's time for more testing  :D

So I had another go at 'Inflame' and I'm happy to say I finished the mission. Though it did take a few attempts due to the AI being....AI. I have to admit I didn't realise that the mission was split in two. I thought that when I had to restart I'd have to do part I again.

The teleport change was definately noticeable and it did seem to solve the problem. However, it does need some refining. I think you need to do a 'savegame' after the 'black in' has finished. I had to reload several times from that point and I got the 'black in' again everytime.

There were a few other challenges I was presented with. The first was having to find a medkit to heal one of the hostages. On the first attempt he was just limping and he didn't get out of the village alive. On the second attempt the fence around the back door seemed to interfere with their pathfinding as they were once again stationary.

In the end I didn't bother giving them weapons as I didn't have time before the UAZ and APC arrived. It seemed like a case of just 'gtfo or die'  :D I have to admit I'm somewhat wary of missions that rely so much on the AI in order to work properly. Sometimes you end up screaming at them to move.

If it were me, maybe I'd allow a bit more time between having secured the hostages and reinforcements arriving. What I think would be cool would if the hostages never joined your group but rather went to the hiding spot themselves while you and your guy would lay a trap for the Russian reinforcements. Like a way of getting back at them.

Just an idea. The mission is alright as it is, just a little rough around the edges.

So moving onto...

Setting Up Time

Really like the intro cutscene and it reminds me so much of the resistance camp in OFP  :D Plenty of nostalgia right here.

My only criticism here is during Tomas's exposition when he says what's weighing on his mind and he says 'my family is dead'. I think the audience get the message now. I don't think you need to repeat it. We get what he's going through. I understand the need to stress that point but stress it too much and we stop taking notice and we stop caring. The key to a good story is make the audience care. But you know that already I'm sure. Don't try too hard is what I'm saying.

I don't really know how to say any of that without sounding rude so I hope you don't take offense to that.

But anyway, onto the mission itself...

So I decided to play a bit of the mission first and then post here. I haven't finished the mission yet but it's shaping up to be a really fun experience. There are a few things though that are testing my suspension of disbelief however. The first is that there seems to be no consequence to running soldiers over with my quad bike. I took out what I think was an entire squad, loaded up their weapons and took them back to the base. I also took out an APC with rpg which was satisfying, all the while standing in front of it and not being shot  :D

I don't know what system you could put in place so that the player can't just run over soldiers with no consequence. Maybe a killed eventhandler that makes the player an enemy? Are the soldiers gonna be killed by someone other than the player? If not, then perhaps that's a solution. It just seems too easy and dare I say it, too fun. Sounds weird when you talk about a game like that.

Anyway, I'll get back to that mission either later or tomorrow. It looks really good though  :)

Hope you find this useful
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands (Arma 3)
Post by: Undeceived on 03 Jul 2018, 08:42:45
Quote
However, it does need some refining. I think you need to do a 'savegame' after the 'black in' has finished. I had to reload several times from that point and I got the 'black in' again everytime.
Did you save right before talking to the prisoners?
I'd prefer not to save right after the black in. It happened once that a Russian stood at the fence some seconds after. I put the fence there to protect the guys a bit but this is no guarantee, which means that the automatic save could cause serious trouble.

They both always limp and the player needs to treat them. I'm aware that this costs more time and thus, as you suggested, I'll delay the reinforcements a bit, even though the mission indeed is supposed to be one of the
Quote
gtfo or die
kind. :D

Thanks for letting me know about the fence. I'll try to improve that a bit.

I'll leave them in the group because this way, if the player is fast enough, he can give them weapons which are collected at the end. This doesn't work every time, even I sometimes just go GTFO of there. :D


Quote
My only criticism here is during Tomas's exposition
Good point here, thanks!

That problem with killing soldiers without consequences is something I finally have to fix. :) And you're idea with the EH is great. Yeah, they can be killed by patrolling APCs or cars but through the EH I'll try to identify the killer. Thanks for the hint! :good:

What SHOULD happen though is that the player gets engaged immediately when he is seen with a gun. Did you say that you stood before an APC with an AT weapon and they didn't react?

Thanks a lot again, Gruntage! Great work!

And you'd only be rude if you said something like "This is total garbage and crap and you can do whatever you want - this won't change!"  :D So don't be worried about how you write - just let your thoughts flow.
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands (Arma 3)
Post by: Gruntage on 03 Jul 2018, 19:30:36
Quote
Did you save right before talking to the prisoners?
I'd prefer not to save right after the black in. It happened once that a Russian stood at the fence some seconds after. I put the fence there to protect the guys a bit but this is no guarantee, which means that the automatic save could cause serious trouble.

Now that I think about it I did, which may explain why it looked and felt weird. I saved a LOT in that mission and the reason why I saved before I secured the prisoners was because I kept getting shot in the head whenever I leaned around the doorway to shoot the two guys in there. I don't think I've ever had to concentrate on not dying as much as I did in that mission  :D

Having just a little bit more breathing space when they're secured would be great. I'm not particularly good at micro-managing, and so doing stuff like patching the guys up and arming them within a short time is difficult; for me at least. Others may test this mission and have a completely different experience. They may find what I found difficult a complete non-issue. Helps to have other perspectives I guess.

Regarding 'Setting Up Time', I'm not 100% sure whether a killed eventhandler would work. Is it the player or the vehicle that kills a guy? I've never tested it myself so I wonder what would the EH return if you run someone over with a vehicle  :scratch: Is a vehicle considered a means of killing someone or is it the guy operating the vehicle? Something to think about for sure. I wonder if h- knows  :hmmm:

Quote
What SHOULD happen though is that the player gets engaged immediately when he is seen with a gun. Did you say that you stood before an APC with an AT weapon and they didn't react?

That is correct yes. I'd just wiped out a squad with my quad bike in a village to the north. I noticed a BTR (?) parked near the squad. Though you do say in the briefing that if I equip a weapon I'll be shot at, I'm sure you understand that I can't just take your word for it  :D I have to test it  :P

So I grabbed an RPG from a guy in the open and in clear sight of the BTR and shot at it. I saved just before I did all this so I don't end up dying needlessly. In fact the first time I completely missed but I waited a few seconds before reloading to see what the BTR did. It did nothing. When I reloaded I shot and hit the BTR but still it did nothing. So I grabbed another RPG and destroyed it.

I'm sure there is a system in place but for whatever reason it wasn't working when I played it. There was also something very strange that happened shortly before my engagement with the squad. Upon my approach to the village I got told to stop by an officer. So I did and I went along with what he said. I said my name was Czerny and then the officer called his squad over and said 'thats the guy!'. I was expecting to get shot and then have to reload. But nothing happened. I got back on the quad bike and drove off.

Seemed like something was supposed to happen there but didn't.

Anyway, I'll hold off on testing for now until a new version is put up. I was having fun with it but if it's not working as it should then it's best to play it when it is. Hope this is useful to you anyway.

Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands (Arma 3)
Post by: Undeceived on 03 Jul 2018, 19:44:41
Road check in Vybor: Yeah, this is a bug! Damn. If you tell the officer the truth (your real name) you should get shot immediately. Strange enough as I fixed this some weeks ago, but it seems that it still is bugged. I don't know why but you remained captive (which is why no one cared when you carried the gun in the open). Will check that out ASAP - maybe later today.

To have some more info on what could have messed it up - can you remember how you proceeded in the mission in terms of carrying guns in the open? Did you shoot someone before that situation or did you remain covert and drove up there as an innocent fellow citizen? :) Were you armed at all (gear in backpack, vest or uniform)?

Quote
Though you do say in the briefing that if I equip a weapon I'll be shot at, I'm sure you understand that I can't just take your word for it  :D I have to test it  :P
And I thank you very much for that! :D

The EH works as intended. The one who drives someone over is the _killer in the EH and the one who uses a vehicles gun (e.g. MG) is the _instigator. In the exec code I added a check if Tomas is one of them. If yes, Tomas is setCaptive false.

Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands (Arma 3)
Post by: Gruntage on 03 Jul 2018, 19:56:12
I should have kept playing...I could have beaten the entire Russian army and still be a captive  :D :whistle:

Quote
To have some more info on what could have messed it up - can you remember how you proceeded in the mission in terms of carrying guns in the open? Did you shoot someone before that situation or did you remain covert and drove up there as an innocent fellow citizen? :) Were you armed at all (gear in backpack, vest or uniform)?

Up until my encounter with the officer I never carried any weapons or even possessed any weapons. I suppose I was thinking of trying to do the mission without any weapons whatsoever. Also up until that point I never hit anybody with my car. I was just driving around exploring. But after a while I decided to test the mission's limits  :P What can I get away with, that sort of thing.


Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands (Arma 3)
Post by: Undeceived on 03 Jul 2018, 21:17:52
Quote
Up until my encounter with the officer I never carried any weapons or even possessed any weapons. I suppose I was thinking of trying to do the mission without any weapons whatsoever. Also up until that point I never hit anybody with my car. I was just driving around exploring. But after a while I decided to test the mission's limits  :P What can I get away with, that sort of thing.

Ok, thanks for the info. Actually it's possible to complete 99% of the mission completely unarmed, even though it's really tough (especially with the hawk-eye AI). You would have to infiltrate or run into the medical camp and manage to get out of there alive (the main task of the mission). Well - I recommend you to take a gun with you to shoot your way out. :D

The remaining 1 % is one pistol bullet (at least) - you'll know what I mean when you get there.
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands (Arma 3)
Post by: Undeceived on 03 Jul 2018, 21:25:01
Quote
Up until my encounter with the officer I never carried any weapons or even possessed any weapons.

Ehm... But you had your (and the guy's) equipment in the crate in the camp, didn't you??



EDIT:

And one more question: Were you driving that quad / another vehicle? Or did you approach the road check on foot?
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands (Arma 3)
Post by: Gruntage on 03 Jul 2018, 21:54:23
Yes there were a couple of rifles in the crate but I didn't take them with me. What I meant was I didn't store any weapons in my vehicle until after I spoke with the officer.
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands (Arma 3)
Post by: Undeceived on 03 Jul 2018, 21:57:56
And one more question: Were you driving that quad / another vehicle? Or did you approach the road check on foot?
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands (Arma 3)
Post by: Gruntage on 03 Jul 2018, 22:00:50
No I was driving the quad bike, never used any other vehicle. If you want to know which quad bike, it was the one in the first village you come to (if I remember right).
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands (Arma 3)
Post by: Undeceived on 03 Jul 2018, 22:04:32
Very strange bug. I tested it, took the quad and passed the villages to Vybor, came into the road check and told my name and I was shot from all sides... :(

On the other hand no one reacted when I ran a soldier over earlier. :D WFT? :D
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands (Arma 3)
Post by: Gruntage on 03 Jul 2018, 22:07:41
If I have some time later I can go back and try recreate the situation again and see what happens.
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands (Arma 3)
Post by: Gruntage on 03 Jul 2018, 23:53:11
So I went back to have another play at the mission (it's quite addictive  :D ) and when I went up to Vybor I did get shot by the officer this time. I didn't do anything differently so it seems to be an intermittent bug.

After I reloaded I did the dialogue correctly and then proceeded to mow down any Russians between Vybor and our camp  :D I then went back to the fuel depot and I blew it up with an RPG.

I know I haven't been playing this mission exactly as it should be played but it is a lot of fun. If there had been a OFP version of this mission back in the day I'd have played it all the time. It's so simple yet really enjoyable. Not being able to run people over though will put a different spin on things for sure, but it is needed.

I haven't completed the mission obviously but it's really good. Good job  :good:
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands (Arma 3)
Post by: Undeceived on 04 Jul 2018, 11:21:24
Ok, I updated and uploaded it again with all of your feedback implemented, hopefully properly working.

Setting-Up-Time should work fine now (runnung over soldiers has consequences and when telling the true name in the road-check, the player should always be killed).


Quote
I know I haven't been playing this mission exactly as it should be played but it is a lot of fun. If there had been a OFP version of this mission back in the day I'd have played it all the time. It's so simple yet really enjoyable. Not being able to run people over though will put a different spin on things for sure, but it is needed.
Don't forget to keep your ears open and talk to people where possible. Maybe there is a bit more to see/do than the main task. ;)
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands (Arma 3)
Post by: Gruntage on 04 Jul 2018, 21:17:03
Alright so I went back to have another go at it. I may go back to the start of the campaign to see how it plays it out for now I'll carry on where I left off.

The changes were definately noticeable and the difficulty has increased for sure. There is no doubt that this is a great and interesting mission but my God the AI are good. Crazily good. I don't know what it is about these guys but they make Viper look like nothing. To even have a chance at these guys I have to turn the grass basically off and to turn the skill down to 0. Yet the result is the same. On my last playthrough I was being shot through trees, rocks you name it.

Generally I don't mind being shot; it's part of the game. But I'm not gonna lie, it does get frustrating when you're being headshot by an invisible enemy consistently. One time the second I fire an RPG I get headshot. Not even the second, an instant more like. It doesn't matter what strategy I employ, I always get shredded. I think I spent about an hour trying to kill the guys at the Pulkovo farm, but I never got closer than 200m.

So the experience feels like a real struggle and it eats away at the fun element. I'm not saying the mission should be jokingly easy but AI shouldn't be overpowered as they are now.

Anyway, Imma take a little break for now and maybe go back at it tomorrow. I don't want to have to use the cheat because then I wouldn't be doing my job. Rant over anyway  :D

The mission is great, but the AI are nuisance. But I don't know what you can do about it. I don't know if it's something that's built into the mod. I tell you what it reminds me of, it reminds me of the AI in ArmA 1...overpowered one minute and silly the next.
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands (Arma 3)
Post by: Undeceived on 04 Jul 2018, 23:14:35
Ok, that doesn't sound good. :D I think I have set every AI (in fact throughout the whole campaign) to the minimum skill (20) or close to that. On my end this results in quite balanced fights with the AI shooting a lot, but missing a lot too. Of course - there are exceptions. When I use an AT rocket, I instantly get killed as well (lots of retries here).

It could be that I forgot to tune down some squads. I'm gonna check that, especially Pulkovo farm. But if they are at 20 already, then hmm... no idea what I could do about it. :(

Thanks again, mate!
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands (Arma 3)
Post by: h- on 06 Jul 2018, 07:08:43
Unfortunately I'm way waaay too busy to test this thing currently..
By the time I'm able to it's gonna be bug free, yay  :)
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands (Arma 3)
Post by: Undeceived on 06 Jul 2018, 08:19:48
Ok, thx for the info, I was rather surprised anyway, when you said you should probably test this. :D Good luck with your projects!
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands (Arma 3)
Post by: Gruntage on 06 Jul 2018, 20:51:32
So I haven't given up on this mission quite yet. Loaded my last save where I was about 100m to the rear of the Pulkovo shed. Figured that rather than staying in the open and getting slaughtered I may as well sprint to the shed where at least there's something solid between me and the Russians. Though I did get shot THROUGH the house a couple of times.

This strat actually worked and I was able to secure the town and complete the objective. Annoyingly though I had to drive back to my base to fetch a UAZ I stole earlier. I couldn't leave all of that ordinance there going to waste. I suppose a quality of life change would be to unlock the UAZ and/or truck.

I still maintain though that taking that farm, and just in general, is way harder than perhaps it should be. It just seems that the difficulty doesn't match what you're actually doing. Taking a farm house shouldn't be like trying to take a military headquarters. Maybe I'm just bad, but I wouldn't have thought I was that bad at the game to be honest. Anyway it felt good completing it.  :cool2:

I have to say there are a lot of weird bugs with this mod. One of the strangest is in the screenshot at the bottom of this post. For some strange reason the UAZ I was using was duplicating rucksacks full of ammo. Problem is, the inventory stays full which means I can't load what I take out. One of the things I loaded onto the UAZ was a DshKm...figured a weapon like that would be very useful. In fact I got chance to try it out on a patrolling squad but after I couldn't load it back onto the UAZ again. Quite frustrating really. But I think these bugs lie with the mod makers rather than you.

But at least I'm not being shredded anymore....yet. It does kinda feel like these are guys are robots rather than human beings. Another perspective would be handy because at least then I'd know whether I'm just bad at the game.

Anyway, I'll resume my playthrough at some point over the weekend.

https://imgur.com/a/LnTG7ug
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands (Arma 3)
Post by: Undeceived on 07 Jul 2018, 00:09:04
Quote
Another perspective would be handy because at least then I'd know whether I'm just bad at the game.

Haha, Gruntage :D I noticed that MANY Russians still are with their original skill (which IS hard as hell). Pulkovo farm too. I tuned them all down to minimum and it should feel a bit better now...

Will take note of your other feedback - as always, good job and thanks a lot!


Btw. I'm currently adding a small but interesting side-story to the mission as I feel it's still too empty. :P The player benefits from it too for the main task if he follows it. But it's not ready yet. Nevertheless I imagine you don't want to replay the whole mission.

These bugs are strange though. Never experienced something like you described. :(
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands (Arma 3)
Post by: Undeceived on 09 Jul 2018, 22:44:05
Ok, here we go with another update.


Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands (Arma 3)
Post by: Gruntage on 09 Jul 2018, 22:47:49
Will give the campaign a fresh playthrough tomorrow and see what's changed  :D
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands (Arma 3)
Post by: Undeceived on 10 Jul 2018, 08:20:47
Thanks, Gruntage!
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands (Arma 3)
Post by: Undeceived on 10 Jul 2018, 12:59:44
And another update: :D

Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands (Arma 3)
Post by: Gruntage on 10 Jul 2018, 21:58:44
Alrighty let's do this....

Death Came Upon Me

So as I said I started the campaign again to see what's up, and straight away I was met by a new beginning to this mission. I was expecting a easy walk through the woods. What I got was quite different, but a welcome change honestly. It puts the player under pressure straight away and it took me a few tries to take out all the guys around the shed (they kept headshotting me).

But the change in difficulty was definitely noticeable and I think I ended up killing about 10 in that mission. I got a nice grenade triple kill on a group by a tent which was satisfying. Atmosphere was definitely better and it felt great. My only little criticism here is the UAZ that breaks down. Maybe I'm missing something but I don't really get its purpose. I went and dealt with the officer and driver but of course I couldn't use the UAZ, and the officer didn't drop anything of any real value. If I'm being honest I don't really know what incentive it gives the player to go and look. You don't really get anything out of it....that I know of. Like I said there might be something I'm missing there.

I might suggest giving the officer a pair of NV goggles that you can loot off his body and perhaps use in later missions. I just think the UAZ needs a bit more substance.

Death Came Upon Me - Cutscene

Even though I've already given comments on this on a previous test I just wanted to reiterate just how amazing the cinema is here. The music, the camera shots, the scene transitions....they're all fantastic. You get the sense of desperation; it reminds me of Gladiator actually. I like how he drops his weapon like it's no longer important.

Feels like you're watching a movie. One of the best if not the best piece of cinema I've seen. 10/10 here.

Awakening

Alright so this is probably where this post is gonna become a wall of text. This mission feels very different to the last time I played it. I know I said in my first post that I was expecting something a bit more challenging. But honestly now, this feels a bit over the top.

This mission is a weird one for me because I want to like it. I really do. I love the setting, the atmosphere (the music was a great addition). But the amount of Russians in the area now....it really does change the way I look at it. With the amount of enemies crawling around the town, you'd think that the alarm had already been raised. Honestly no matter which direction I took, there were Russians following me. They were crawling underneath fences and everything.

I don't really get why the Russians were running all over the place like it was a war zone and that they were hunting someone. I've gotta be honest it felt broken, like these guys were in combat mode when they should be in a safe mode or something. It felt overpowering is what I'm sayin'.

That's not to say that I was dying a lot. The Russians were certainly inaccurate but there were just so many of them it felt weird. I think I must have spent an hour on that mission and I think that's a lot more than should be spent really. In the end I just starting shooting my way through the town and said screw stealth because it just wasn't working.

So if I'm being honest I preferred the original iteration of this mission. I think it was alright before. By all means have the occasional campfire or a couple of guys on the odd street corner, but having squads of infantry running everywhere and tracking my every step doesn't look or feel right for the mission. I hope that's not too harsh. I don't know what other people are saying when they're testing; it might be you've got one guy saying a mission is too easy and another guy saying it's too hard. The hard part is trying to find a middle ground.

I just think the amount of enemies feels disproportionate to what is actually going on in the mission. I have to try and describe what I'm seeing and feeling when I play, and I prefer to be honest and not mince my words. I know how hard it can be to take on everyone's feedback because I've been there myself.

Anyway, I'll resume my testing tomorrow. Can't wait to see how Setting Up Time feels with the change in difficulty, or even the next mission for that matter.

Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands (Arma 3)
Post by: Undeceived on 10 Jul 2018, 23:03:20
Quote
and the officer didn't drop anything of any real value. If I'm being honest I don't really know what incentive it gives the player to go and look. You don't really get anything out of it....that I know of. Like I said there might be something I'm missing there.

I might suggest giving the officer a pair of NV goggles that you can loot off his body and perhaps use in later missions. I just think the UAZ needs a bit more substance.

:D You have to search him completely, which means, also his uniform. Nothing of use to the player there, but something that adds to the story (a protocol of the activities of his platoon).
Apart from that wait until the repair team comes, they have a NGV with them in the truck.
You "heard" (read) him calling the repair team, didn't you? (you should have, if everything worked as intended)


Quote
So if I'm being honest I preferred the original iteration of this mission.
I didn't change anything in this mission. As I said earlier, the patrols have random waypoints.

But ok, you're right - they keep running through Cherno, as if alarm had been set already. Thanks for this observation - you're right, it should not be this way. Thanks!


EDIT:

Gruntage, thanks a lot for spending so much time for this! I really appreciate your feedback!
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands (Arma 3)
Post by: Gruntage on 10 Jul 2018, 23:18:25
Quote
You have to search him completely, which means, also his uniform. Nothing of use to the player there, but something that adds to the story (a protocol of the activities of his platoon).
Apart from that wait until the repair team comes, they have a NGV with them in the truck.
You "heard" (read) him calling the repair team, didn't you? (you should have, if everything worked as intended)

I thought I had searched his uniform but I guess I must have missed it. I don't think I heard the officer call for a repair team at all. But then, I did kill him so after that I think his calling days were over. I didn't stay at the UAZ long so it just seemed at a glance that there was nothing significant there.

Quote
I didn't change anything in this mission. As I said earlier, the patrols have random waypoints.

You know the funny thing is I just knew you'd say that. I suppose in that case then I got extremely lucky on the first playthrough because I took more or less the same route at the start, except that I was forced towards the NE because of patrols. I will go into a bit more detail on it.

The problem with adding lots of patrols in a situation like this is that the player will just end up going all the way around the outside of the city and along the coastline. In which case, all the hard work that went into setting up the city will just be a waste. Speaking from experience people will take the path of least resistance. If I hadn't completed that mission on the last try I would have just gone the long way around.

I suppose what was confusing about the mission was it wasn't clear whether it was supposed to be a stealth mission or not. There didn't seem to be any consequences for shooting enemies and giving my position away. Just what was already happening basically. Simply put, it didn't seem clear to me what approach you want the player to take; to go stealth or to go in Rambo style. Stealth makes the most sense given the objective, but when the opposition is so strong you wonder why you bother going stealth in the first place if the enemy seemingly know you're there already. If you had alarm bells ringing and tanks swarming everywhere then it would be a pretty clear message that stealth is best.

I hope that makes things clearer. I'm not rubbishing the mission at all (I'm not trying to). I basically just to have give an honest accounting of how the gameplay feels. I don't spare any details and I try to go in with an open mind and as if it's my first time playing and if I'm just the usual steam workshop guy.
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands (Arma 3)
Post by: Undeceived on 11 Jul 2018, 09:31:39
Great post, Gruntage, thanks a lot.

 :D That sentence you predicted wasn't supposed to be a excuse, it became clear to me that the mission needs some refinement, but I was short on time yesterday to go more into detail. I just remembered having written that. :D

Your explanation was completely correct and useful. I'll try to improve the mission, I already have some ideas for it. :good: Thanks.


EDIT:

Would you mind to try out the start of the first mission again just to confirm that the officer didn't call in the rep team? You could (in the campaign menu) just go on Replay so you don't lose your campaign progress. Normally he should radio while the player is still quite far away (40 or 50 meters).

If you could, also check if you can find the note in the uniform - it should be there. And being there :) wait for the rep team etc...
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands (Arma 3)
Post by: Gruntage on 11 Jul 2018, 22:28:15
Alright so I went back and replayed the first mission to see what would happen with the UAZ. I'm afraid to say it doesn't seem to be working properly. I got the prompt that the UAZ had broken down as before, so I ran over towards it but nothing else happened. There was no text or sound, all I noticed was that the officer was sprinting to the NE leaving the UAZ behind.

I waited at the UAZ for about 10 minutes before moving on. I didn't do anything apart from just run towards the UAZ.

But anyway, so I was able to do both the 'Inflame Again' missions with no problems. Both missions play well and do exactly what they should do. No bugs detected.

That brings me back to Setting Up Time, and it's definitely more manageable this time. Sadly however I've run out of time this evening but I'll probably go for the main camp the next time I play. Haven't had chance to test that new feature you implemented but I will have a look at it. Not gonna lie I'm kinda looking forward to moving past this mission  :D. I did miss the massive ammo crate at Pulkovo though; that thing gave me a shit tonne of RPD rounds last time I played.

Nothing much to report so far it seems. All seems fine so far apart from that UAZ thing.
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands (Arma 3)
Post by: Undeceived on 11 Jul 2018, 23:37:10
Many thanks, Gruntage!

Very strange behaviour of the UAZ in mission 1. At the mission start, did you get involved in a fight? Or did you sneak away undetected? If there was a fight, maybe this had an effect on the UAZ part... Will have to take a closer look to it as I never experienced this (but I have to say that I never openend the mission guns blazing - I always went low profile).

Ah, one thing I wanted to ask you (regarding the new feature in mission 4): There's quite much to read. If you'd check grammar and expressions too, that would be cool.

I really hope that mission 4 doesn't have a showstopper or something else severe in store for you....... Good luck. :) And thanks again!
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands (Arma 3)
Post by: Gruntage on 11 Jul 2018, 23:43:42
At the start on both my playthroughs of the latest version I always took out the 3 guys with my pistol, grabbed a rifle and ran into the forest. To be honest I never considered just sneaking away I thought it was intended for me to make a stand.

But I can give the mission another look tomorrow with a different approach and see what happens.
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands (Arma 3)
Post by: Undeceived on 12 Jul 2018, 10:10:08
You could also carry on with the other missions, I'd say, so that you don't need to replay the already known stuff over and over again. 😊 Looking at the campaign's current state it could well be that you'll be facing further problems regarding mission design or bugs. 😆 (even though I tried to polish it as much as possible before the release).


I'll check out that part in the first mission again, already have some ideas how to improve it.
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands (Arma 3)
Post by: Gruntage on 13 Jul 2018, 00:07:49
Ok so I went back and finally finished Setting Up Time, so now I can give a review before moving on.

There's actually not much to say on this one that I haven't already said. It is a fun experience and it's nice to have a little bit of freedom. I know for a fact that I didn't explore every town and I'm pretty sure there were some objectives that I didn't discover. But on the whole it was a good mission and it felt good bringing weapons back to the camp.

However, there are a few things though that I'd change. But before I go into that, what's the deal with the guy in the barn with the blood everywhere? I assumed it was part of some story but despite following the blood trail and the footprints there was nothing happening. There was no text, no dialogue. I figured that a trigger or script wasn't firing, unless I've missed something. I did explore the whole surrounding area for about 10 minutes. The blood trail was a pretty cool thing to find though, never seen anything like that before.

I was expecting perhaps a note in the UAZ or on the soldier or even on the ground but there wasn't anything. So, not sure what was happening there.

I was actually expecting the mission to end after bringing the medical supplies back and the whole killing the agent thing was a nice surprise. However one thing I would do is put the dialogue between Tomas and Kamil within a cutscene. Reason being is what's stopping me from just running out of the house and potentially breaking the mission?

Whenever I've tried making missions in the past I always ask what can the player do to break the mission. Dialogue scenes therefore should be done without the player having control of his movements. It's just asking for trouble.

But anyway, I killed the agent whilst hiding in the latrine behind Kamil's house. Figured that may even have been what was intended. Although when Kamil walked past he did yell at me to get into the backyards as the agent was right behind him (which he wasn't). That whole part of the mission was a nice ending and unexpected as well. Good job here.

So I think that's all for now. Moving onto the next one  :)
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands (Arma 3)
Post by: Undeceived on 13 Jul 2018, 11:38:06
Thanks! :)

That part with the UAZ is not so obvious even though at first it seems so. The dead soldier is a "dead end", but it's explained later. You would have to follow the footprints and look around where they "show to" (towards the forest). There's a small hut in that forest...

I think I'll give the player a LITTLE bit more of a hint on that but all in all I don't want to give away this side-story too easily. I loved these hidden intel and spots in the Arma 2 campaign - you had to look around a lot and think and search. Often you'd never find them but when they were (emotionally) extremely rewarding (not necessarily in a materialistic way).
The reward of this side-story is not something that you need at all costs, but if you find it you will have something useful (in this case: information).

Thanks for the idea with the cutscenes in the conversation with Kamil. I'll implement cinema stripes which take the control of the player.

 :good:
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands (Arma 3)
Post by: Gruntage on 13 Jul 2018, 23:58:56
I actually did follow the footprints into the forest but I couldn't see a hut. Perhaps if you had the footprints going a bit further. When I next play the mission I'll give it a better look.

But anyway, so moving onto....

Martin's List

I have to say this mission really got the blood flowing; very enjoyable experience and well thought out. Quite challenging as well and it really offers a great deal. One minute you're riding a bus and next minute you're dodging helicopter fire in a motorboat  :D Also once again we get to see some amazing camerawork and storytelling...the flashback scenes were brilliantly done.

To be honest there really isn't much to comment on because it is really good. Definately an evening well spent. However.... ;)

There are a few things that I think could do with tweaking. Most of them quality of life changes with only one minor bug.

The first thing I will mention and I'm pretty sure that this will not change and that's your teammates not having weapons at the start. And by start I mean when you're clear of Novy Sobor. Unfortunately the first engagement was a bit of a mess for me. I parked the vehicle about 400m away from the camp not far from the Prud lake, and I left my guys there because they were unarmed and of no use to me.

I dealt with the enemies at the camp and told my guys to come to me. That was a mistake because a UAZ with reinforcements arrived and it was a miracle that they didn't kill any of my guys because they were in the open. I was able to deal with the reinforcements and give my guys weapons etc.

Before we go any further though, I should mention the bug. Basically the setcaptive you have in place is being removed too late. I could see troops at the camp as friendly when they should be enemy. Best time to remove it I think is when the 'stay undetected' objective completes.

Anyway, so I spent a lot of time trying to give my troops the right loadouts. Too much time as a matter of fact. When I went to the convoy marker I saw the convoy was already there, and a brief engagement resulted in all of us being catapulted by T72 fire. That pretty much ruled out any possibility of using my troops; they're not intelligent enough to employ hit and run tactics and for me micromanaging them would be a nightmare. So when I reloaded I just left my guys at the camp, grabbed an RPG launcher and went alone.

I destroyed the trucks easily enough and we all went the lake. If I'm being totally honest I think your teammates are pretty redundant here. I ended up doing the entire mission solo because it was easier. I didn't need extra firepower because we're guerillas and we're not supposed to get into stand-up fights. Also I generally do missions as solo and I've never been a massive fan of AI groups.

I'm not suggesting removing your teammates because someone will find them useful, but I didn't. But at least you know the mission can be done solo. If I had known I was gonna be doing the mission solo from the start I probably would have reached the convoy location a lot sooner and had time to lay a trap. Also for some reason I couldn't take mines out of the crate. I had bag space so I can't understand why it wouldn't let me...unless you've got to be a specific unit type.

So yeah, to sum up, team can be a real liability....which I've found in many missions not just yours.

So moving onto the second part...

I did find this one pretty cool and it works well. Great for people like me who do prefer stealth, and I really liked the radio conversation and flashback. Very well done indeed. I have just one gripe about this mission, and that's the radio chatter between me and Kamil.

I have to admit, the constant 'foot mobiles at 12 oclock' really annoyed me and it was an immersion breaker. Because I was doing this mission solo (who'd have guessed), the radio chat was unnecessary and it was hard to concentrate because it was literally all the time. With it being a stealth mission, I reckon a good ol' fashioned 'enableradio false' would work wonders here.

Apart from that, all in all very fun indeed. Actually can't wait for the next one  :good:

Hope this is useful

Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands (Arma 3)
Post by: Undeceived on 14 Jul 2018, 00:12:50
Many thanks mate!

Yeah, the AI is useless in many situations, I think we all know that. 😁

Interestingly enough - in many playthroughs, when trying to escape from the radar base, Kamil did a hell of a job and sometimes I'd hide behind him as he's really an ex-special forces guy. 😁

But at the convoy... Yeah, going alone is better for many approaches to destroy it, I have to admit that. Nevertheless I'll keep this as it is.

And the risk to get caught by the Russians is too high, which is why only Tomas will carry weapons at the mission start.

Thanks a lot!
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands (Arma 3)
Post by: Undeceived on 14 Jul 2018, 13:18:07
I read your feedback again and have one more question: As you killed the soldiers at the weapon stash, did you notice the hint that you can use team switch in order to speed up the arming process?
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands (Arma 3)
Post by: Gruntage on 14 Jul 2018, 13:47:05
I did notice that hint and I was using the teamswitch feature, but it still took a while to give them the decent loadouts...not to mention that I had to move them out of the camp individually because their pathfinding sucked and they got stuck on the netting  ::)
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands (Arma 3)
Post by: Gruntage on 14 Jul 2018, 16:48:17
So, I had the opportunity to actually finish the campaign today, so now I can give a review on the last two missions and finally on the campaign as a whole. This will probably be a wall of text so you have been warned  ;)

Inner Abscess

Straight off the bat this is very atmospheric and the fog was a very nice touch. To be honest there isn't that much to say on this one because it functions well and has everything a good mission needs. The briefing has a little mistake: needs to be 'sooner or later' not 'earlier or later'.

One little detail that I liked was the T72 wreck on the way to the first question-mark as it were. I actually thought it was a real T72  :blink: Good thing it wasn't we didn't have any RPGs.

I suppose the dialogue could perhaps be put in a cutscene for the same reason as the last mission. I could literally run around and do anything mid-conversation and it's a bit of an immersion breaker. The only thing to mention is whether it's possible to disable the radio chatter when your group members join the woman or Volja.

That pretty much covers that mission; short and sweet and functions well.

Moving onto....

Alexej Pribotow

So this is the last mission and it's very difficult to express how I feel about this one if I'm being honest. It is a fun mission and a decent conclusion to the story, but on reflection I'm wondering whether it could have had more action to it.

This mission is the conclusion to the story (for now) and everything has been building up to it presumably, so I was expecting something bigger, to really finish the Pribotow story arch. I like what you've done with it, but I suppose if you want my input on story I think you need to have the following element to be more of a chasing element that goes across the whole of Chernarus. At this point in time the Russians are not important; they are secondary to revenge on this guy. All that matters is getting even with Alexej. This is a golden opportunity and nothing is as important as this. At least that was how I saw it.

This Alexei Pribotow is a pretty pivotal character; we've heard so much about him. Really he is the main antagonist of this part of the story...probably more important than the Russians at this point because it's more personal. So I think the conclusion needs to be more befitting how important he is. What we have right now is a little bit underwhelming if I'm being totally honest. Maybe I just was expecting more.

So going back to what I said before, I think it would be cool if you and your guys were discovered by Alexej in the town and then it's an all-out cat and mouse chase with the Russians in pursuit as well. Maybe if the capturing of Alexej was more elaborate somehow. Maybe even putting the player in direct control of the different characters (similar to that ArmA 1 mission) and then giving each character a different objective to complete.

I know it sounds quite Hollywood-esque but I feel that's what's needed here. I know all this involves reworking the mission and I'd understand if you don't want story input.

Technically there's only one issue that can prevent the mission from ending and that's one of your guys getting stuck on a table in Alexej's house. I can't teamswitch into them to fix it so the mission kinda stops at that point. Unless you know about it beforehand in which case you can just keep your two guys on the outskirts of the camp and then they won't get stuck. Maybe putting Alexej in another house or maybe a tent would fix the problem.

The end cutscene was great and it sets up nicely for a continuation of the story.

Campaign Review

This is actually the first campaign I've reviewed...well the first custom made campaign I've reviewed I should say. All in all it was a good gameplay experience and the cinema was expertly done and there weren't really many technical issues. The atmosphere was super as was the music choice. Every mission tied in well to each other and I liked how every character was relevant. 

I think this campaign has delivered everything that one would come to expect from a Resistance campaign. I think it's impossible to not make comparisons to the OFP campaign so I'll go ahead and say that in my opinion you've delivered something that was as good if not better. I think you did right what that campaign did wrong, if that makes sense. You captured the feeling of oppression and struggle and I think you succeeded in making the audience care about the characters and about the story. That to me is an absolute necessity when it comes to story telling.

Anyway, I'll leave it here and probably save it for the actual review (if you want one of course)  ;)

I'll be more than happy to play it again to test new stuff out. Was a cool experience and well worth the time spent  :good:

Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands (Arma 3)
Post by: Undeceived on 14 Jul 2018, 19:37:20
Gruntage, I can only say thanks a million for your good feedback and your time! :clap:

Wow, your ideas for the Pribotow missions are great. If I had the other missions finished already I'd expand that one right away. Especially the thought with the guys having to accomplish different tasks got my brain started working and I had to brake it down a bit. :)

Your and Clayman's feedback (BIF) got me busy with these first 8 missions for days (that's a compliment! :D ) - now I finally have to move on to the next ones. There are still some heavy plot twists to experience for the player, but for me still a lot of work to do. :D

I'd appreciate it if you'd test the next ones as well. I'm planning to release missions 9-13 next, but I think this will take some weeks.
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands (Arma 3)
Post by: Undeceived on 26 Jul 2018, 16:03:23
Just a small note - at the moment I don't need further beta tests. I'm working on the next missions and when they're ready, you (if you're interested and have time) could get started.

Thanks a lot.
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands (Arma 3)
Post by: Gruntage on 26 Jul 2018, 21:15:47
Take your time man, I'm in no hurry  :) Looking forward to the next part of the story  :good:
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands (Arma 3)
Post by: Undeceived on 31 Aug 2018, 23:32:58
Hello... :whistle:

So here we are with the next pile of missions.

v. 0.6

I hope everything works somehow. :) Thanks for any feedback! :good:
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands (Arma 3)
Post by: Gruntage on 01 Sep 2018, 23:33:55
Will hopefully get to this tomorrow  :)
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands (Arma 3)
Post by: mathias_eichinger on 09 Sep 2018, 18:03:36
Ha, managed to get my login for OFPEC back!  :D


Intro

I am totally awed by the quality of the intro - it's long, the camera angles are perfect, the text is slow enough to read, the musical pieces are artful as well - hardly be able to improve this (as voiceacting would be at odds with the music).  :good:
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands (Arma 3)
Post by: Undeceived on 10 Sep 2018, 12:46:27
Thanks for your time, Mathias.
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands (Arma 3)
Post by: Gruntage on 16 Sep 2018, 13:06:26
Alrighty, so let's dive into this one again. I don't have a lot of time today so I may only get one mission done. When I have more time I'll give the campain a playthrough from the start to see what's changed. For now though, it's onto...

Petrovka Strike (Preparations) & Petrovka Strike

I'll be writing this as I do the mission so that I don't end up forgetting anything. First thing I noticed though and I'm not sure if anything can be done about this, but it seems that the title box on the loading screen isn't large enough to accomodate 'Preparations'. Maybe shorten it to 'Prep'? It's a minor point but it's the first thing I noticed.

As always the briefing is first rate and gives me everything I need to know.

Ok so now onto the mission itself. Maybe I'm missing something but doesn't Kamil need a backpack of sorts? I gave Tomas an rpg launcher and few satchels, but I couldn't equip Kamil with anything. Instead I gave him the gun bag of the nearby DshKm and I gave Tomek the tripod. Again with Tomek I was faced with the same issue. I wanted to give take more mines etc but couldn't. So I'll have to make do with what I have. Unless there is some clever way of giving each person specific items in order to maximise the amount you can take.

I'd personally just give each a guy a backpack for the sake of ease.

But anyway. So we've moved to the convoy ambush site, and I personally think that showing the briefing again is unnecessary. I literally read it 3 minutes ago  :D I don't know if you can disable it when you move from one mission to the next. Actually just a thought, do you really need to have 2 separate missions for this? Is there any reason why you need to have the preparation in a different mission? I'd have thought that just skipping time and teleporting the player and his team would have been enough. Whether you have them together or separate doesn't really matter and doesn't really impact gameplay, but I'd at least ditch the second briefing if you do have them as they are now.

Taking out the convoy was surprisingly smooth and without any issues. Really didn't have much time to plan though. Pretty much had to attack from where we were.  So after that we met up with the pilot. Now, I'm writing this as I'm playing it as I said. Just one thing that is confusing me a little and I'm not sure if it was said in the briefing. Why do we need to equip Tomek if he's leaving the group early in the mission? I gave that guy the tripod for the DshKm and now of course he's left with it, meaning I can't use the DshKm now.

Just reading the briefing again and it does say that he'll meet us at the castle later. But still, it seems rather redundant to give him stuff if you're gonna lose it pretty early in the mission. The convoy wasn't hard to beat so I'm just not sure why we needed to give him anything. I'd even go so far as to ask why have Tomek in this stage of the mission at all? Does the convoy really require 3 people as opposed to 2? He just seems a bit unnecessary that's all. At least from my perspective. Not sure if the convoy is harder to beat on some playthroughs because of randomness.

But anyway. I have to say the camera work is top notch and the suspense is great. I was hoping there'd be a mission like this. I took out the guy with one shot to the head and proceeded to sprint to the castle. I thought that the run the castle would be uneventful. But, the plot thickens it seems. Not sure how I'm gonna be able to take out any infantry and mid range with a long range sniper rifle but I'll give it a try  ;)

One thing that I thought is very weird and I'm not sure if this is intended. But I can still teamswitch to Tomek! Was this supposed to happen? What happens to Tomas and Kamil if I teamswitch? Either way I'm gonna find out.

Anyway I cleared the town as Tomek. Not sure if this was supposed to happen but I did it anyway. After doing so I switched back to Tomas and then got told to Meet Nemec. Despite finding Tomek where I left him, he wouldn't join my group (not sure if he's supposed to or if there's supposed to be some dialogue at least). Anyway, time go meet Nemec.

So I met Nemec, gathered the team and got them rearmed and took the base without too much trouble. I did however have to turn the terrain detail down to low just to be able to see the enemy. Of course the enemy can see through the grass. Not exactly fair but there you go.

Unfortunately though I lost all my new guys on the way to the truck; got caught by a patrol and my team was too spread out. You tell them to return to formation but sadly they are not very good at following this order. Oh well, they got their revenge at least. When I got to the truck however a Russian soldier appeared and shot me. Not sure if that was intended but it was a very good ambush. Shortlived however because I can reload and kill him  :D

Anyway, so myself and Kamil finished off the guys in the hideout and the mission finished.

So what do I think. Well, it feels like the mission can do with being shorter honestly. I think there was a little too much running for my liking and it felt a bit repetitive. You kill the officer, run the village, then run to the shed, then run to the guys in the forest, then run to the base, then run to the truck....You get the picture.

It plays well and the atmosphere is great. There aren't any bugs that I can tell. Though I get the impression that team switching to Tomek in the village is not intended. Aside from that, it's pretty good. Long mission though, took me about 3 hours.

That's about as much as I can play today though. Will carry on when time permits. Probably Tuesday.

Hope this helps



Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands (Arma 3)
Post by: Undeceived on 16 Sep 2018, 20:14:24
Many thanks, Gruntage! :good: Congratulations on that one-shot kill! :)

Yes, I also think that the mission is very long. It was long already in A2 but in A3 the characters even run slower. Still didn't have a good idea how to shorten it. Maybe cut it in half after Grishino and before Nemec calls? But then, what sense would it make? It would be only a cut, maybe with a new briefing that summarizes the mission... But it would be kind of redundant IMO.
Another way would be to skip a part of the walking, e.g. from the colonel to Grishino (fade out, position T and K a bit further, fade in). But especially that part is quite suspenseful and skipping some meters - I don't know...
If you have good idea it would be great.

Switching to Tomek isn't intended at all btw. :D and I will fix this. I want the player to feel Tomek's fear and helplessness so that he steps on the gas so to speak, but he has to move on slowly nevertheless because of the patrols.

Good point with Tomek at the beginning too. I think I will add another armored vehicle as truck protection so that the whole team is needed.

I'll give Kamil a proper backpack and will check out your suggestion for the briefing. I'm not sure but it could be that it's not needed a second time.

Looking forward to your next feedback. :)
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands (Arma 3)
Post by: Gruntage on 17 Sep 2018, 00:24:53
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Still didn't have a good idea how to shorten it. Maybe cut it in half after Grishino and before Nemec calls? But then, what sense would it make? It would be only a cut, maybe with a new briefing that summarizes the mission... But it would be kind of redundant IMO.
Another way would be to skip a part of the walking, e.g. from the colonel to Grishino (fade out, position T and K a bit further, fade in). But especially that part is quite suspenseful and skipping some meters - I don't know...
If you have good idea it would be great.

Ok so I have been giving this some thought. In order to make this a bit easier, let's break the mission down into 4 sections:

A) Sniping the officer
B) Saving Private Tomek
C) Meeting Nemec
D) Taking the base

Alright so let's talk about A & B first. Everything up to the point when you receive the objective to save Tomek is fine as it is. In terms of pacing and story up to this point, it's fine. Now I do have an idea about the rescuing Tomek part. So we see that the Red Star guys have massacred this village. What if they carry onto another village, but the player has a chance to get to this village to warn the villagers of what's coming....BUT, the player has to make a choice: save those villagers or save Tomek. The player can't do both.

This puts the player in a very difficult and challenging position. In a lot of missions we see very contrived storylines where everything goes to plan without any issues. In reality of course, war is not like that. So far I don't think the player has had to make difficult decisions like this before, so perhaps we've reached a point in the story when it would be good move to make.

I also wonder whether we've come far enough so that the loss of a character would have an impact on the player. I don't know whether you intended to keep all the characters alive until the end. I'm willing to bet that you intended to at least kill one off before the end. But, we'll see  :D

To be honest, all the way through the campaign I've been expecting one of my guys to get killed in some way. I was expecting it in the Alexei Pribotow mission as a sort of cliffhanger. This is a very good aspect of the campaign because you get a sense of danger.

The idea of presenting the player with a difficult ethical decision is something I've thought about doing in one of my missions. What's the 'right' thing to do? Save one man or save many? It's the kind of thing that does belong in this story. Question is though, does this still make the mission fun? I suppose that's what everything boils down to in the end.

Your decision to save either Tomek or the villagers could and probably should impact the rest of the story. Perhaps if you save the villagers they may join you. If you save Tomek but leave the villagers to their fate, what would be the consequences? Would your guys think less of you? What would Tomek think? I think this adds a lot of depth to this mission and to the campaign. Maybe you could have a sort of discussion over the radio to create tension.

Anyway, that's what I think about A&B.

So what about C&D?

Well, to be honest if I were making the mission I'd go with the new A&B and ditch C&D. If you chose to keep C&D and put them in another mission then you'd need to flesh that mission out. Right now I don't think there's enough substance with these two for them to be in a separate mission. They're ok as far as objectives go. Personally though, I think there's enough in the new A&B to compensate for not having C&D. Do C&D really add to the story that much?

Ultimately the decision is yours to make. Reducing the amount of walking would definitely be a plus, because it did feel very repetitive. But if you choose to go with the new A&B and ditch C&D then reducing the amount of walking would be done anyway.

Those are my thoughts anyway. I am looking forward to carrying on with this, it does make you want to come back to it.
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands (Arma 3)
Post by: Undeceived on 17 Sep 2018, 08:21:15
Wow, that decision (Tomek or the civilians) is great and I really liked it. It's even so good that I'd really implement it if there weren't some designing / story aspects in the way. Problem 1 is that Tomek is story-relevant and thus can't die at this point.

A short spoiler, nothing too important:

[spoiler]He will be one of the survivors of this whole madness / campaign.[/spoiler]

Problem 2 is that there are not many villages up there in the north. I'm at work right now so I can't check the map but I think that the only village around is the one south of Grishino, where Jegor and his friends come from. That means: Why not rescue Tomek while on the way there?

As to ditching parts C and D: It's worth a thought but there are two things that I need: meet Jegor and his friends as they are part of the group from there on and finish the mission at these ruins in the south (Kumyrna) as the next mission starts from there just some hours later.

So as much as I loved your idea with the decision, I still don't have it sorted out how to realize it. Maybe I could send a fourth guy in the team on the mission that dies when the player decides not to rescue him (and Tomek survives wounded). But who? Sergej is visiting his I'll mom and Petja is not an option. Hmm....

Also (if there's no second village around) is there another thing we could use as decision factor? Not a village but something else (similarly problematic)?

I don't know how to express it better in English but you really got me with this idea and I'd like to keep on thinking about it. :good:


EDIT:
Something that comes to my mind: I could meet Jegor and his friends not on their way to the Russian camp but either on their way to Grishino or fighting in their own village (and taking heavy losses). And the travel to the Russian camp (revenge) and then to Kumyrna could be a next mission.

Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands (Arma 3)
Post by: Gruntage on 18 Sep 2018, 21:25:26
Alright so I resumed my playthrough this eve, and I think my post can be summarised in one word: wow  :D

I haven't finished the campaign yet, I'll save the ending for another time. But before we go into what I played tonight, I'll just re-address the Petrovka mission briefly.

On reflection I do realise that my idea would require some planning before-hand, i.e. shaping the story around it. But still, 'twas worth sharing. I don't think you should invent another character to make it work....the idea would only really work with someone whom the player has an attachment to. Someone like Martin or Tomek for instance. If you create another guy, the decision would be quite easy for the player to make because he won't really care about the new guy.

I'm also not sure about splitting the mission. Sure you could split it, and the best place would be right after rescuing Tomek and just before you go meet Nemec. But I'd be concerned that there isn't enough going on in C&D right now. Unless, the guys you meet in the forest want you to help them take back their village and then go for the base. The guys you meet would be from another village of course. That could work.

If you're against splitting the mission, then I'd strongly recommend reducing the amount of running at least. Maybe unlocking a few vehicles. In some of the later missions I stopped looking for unlocked vehicles because every vehicle I came across was locked. Anyway, it's up to you.

Now, onto:

Resurrection & Stealing the Camera

With Resurrection there isn't much to report, apart from the absolutely amazing feat of cinema. I mean, seriously, it felt like watching a movie. I have to admit though, the twist was briefly lost on me because I hadn't seen Dmitri for a long time and I was like 'who's this guy?'  :whistle: But the lead-up to the twist was very well done. The action sequence was easily the best part.

Incredible work here. The mission itself worked fine, no issues at all. I did wonder though whether it is possible to kill the guys outside the house at the start. I figured it was impossible but I tried it anyway for the sake of testing. Each try resulted in me dying, which is fine...working as intended  :D

So, onto Stealing the Camera.

To be honest it's hard to say how I feel about this one. It seemed rather underwhelming and not all that engaging in terms of gameplay. We've gone from being a heroic Resistance leader, calling the shots etc, to just being a follower. I would have liked to have seen something more tactical. This is what I mean.

From my perspective at least, we the Resistance movement are probably the most knowledgeable of the Russian/Red Star tactics at this point, and that makes us incredibly valuable in terms of the intel we provide. We know where the Russians are strongest and where they are weakest, presumably. Therefore, I would totally expect to be the one coordinating this operation really. Not being baby-sat as one of the Marines put it. It's funny that he said because that's exactly how it felt.

Not only would I have expected to be the one leading the operation but also coordinating the assault from the supporting teams. We had the Germans and the Czechs apparently in the AO, yet we never saw them and they didn't contribute. Seemed like a missed opportunity.

More depth could have been added to the mission in terms of other objectives. Maybe there could have been hostages being held in the castle. Maybe the castle was being used to question and interrogate. Otherwise, why is the castle of importance to the Russians? Why are they guarding it?

Also, we see in the opening cutscene that NATO can't be openly involved, yet the mission finishes with a US helicopter openly flying around Chenarus  :P We may as well be flying around waving a US flag. It felt a bit weird and not all that plausible.

The next mission is in Utes, so I'd totally expect to be going with the Marines in scuba gear to a submarine or something to finish. Just needs something a bit more special than a chopper pick-up. Something that cries out Special Forces. Something that cries out, Black Op.

I'm sorry if that's too critical. I really like this campaign and I'm invested in making it better.

As I said, I'll save the ending for another time  :)

Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands (Arma 3)
Post by: Undeceived on 18 Sep 2018, 22:47:15
Thanks, Gruntage. No, it's not too critical at all. It's exactly what I need. :good:

I can understand that you feel that especially the camera mission is a bit underwhelming. Yeah, it's kind of straight forward and there would really be some chances to improve it. But that's not on my top priority list at the moment. Other than that I want the player to feel the desperation Tomas feels. His hopes didn't come true so far but now, running with the Marines he feels that he and his men are almost there (even though they are still far away from their goal). He doesn't feel like that warlord resistance leader. He does feel like someone who urgently needs help.

That said, this idea really blew me away!
Quote
Maybe there could have been hostages being held in the castle.
Man, you and Clayman really are specialists in overloading me with more work with your awesome ideas! :D

The chopper ending is illogical, I agree completely. :D Maybe I should add a civilian chopper or a safehouse in the forest where the mission ends... I'll think about it.

Good point with Dimitri too. Maybe I'll implement a short flash back how he dies so that the player recognizes him immediately... Thanks!
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands (Arma 3)
Post by: Undeceived on 18 Sep 2018, 22:53:13
Btw. the mission on Utes isn't the last mission of the campaign. There are still around 7 to come.
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands (Arma 3)
Post by: Gruntage on 19 Sep 2018, 08:39:17
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I can understand that you feel that especially the camera mission is a bit underwhelming. Yeah, it's kind of straight forward and there would really be some chances to improve it. But that's not on my top priority list at the moment. Other than that I want the player to feel the desperation Tomas feels. His hopes didn't come true so far but now, running with the Marines he feels that he and his men are almost there (even though they are still far away from their goal). He doesn't feel like that warlord resistance leader. He does feel like someone who urgently needs help.

Fair enough. Though if you want to try and make the player feel relieved that NATO are now involved, I'd try and make NATO's presence seem a bit stronger than it does currently. Make them seem more professional. I don't necessarily mean adding more troops; in fact it's best if you don't add more because it's still supposed to be a covert operation. But I would recommend bringing the KSK and the Czechs into the fight, visibly. Maybe we need more dialogue from the Marines about the operation ahead. Maybe it's just a case of making the 'mission' seem a lot more than it actually is. Make the marines seem more than just a normal squad of infantry is what I'm saying.

I understand the feeling you're trying to create; it just seems to be falling short right now. From my experience anyway.

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Good point with Dimitri too. Maybe I'll implement a short flash back how he dies so that the player recognizes him immediately... Thanks!

I think my not knowing who Dmitri was is down to taking a long break between the two chapters  :D A flashback would be good to see anyway.

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Btw. the mission on Utes isn't the last mission of the campaign. There are still around 7 to come.

That's good, didn't know there was another chapter to this  :)
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands (Arma 3)
Post by: Undeceived on 19 Sep 2018, 13:55:17
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Maybe we need more dialogue from the Marines about the operation ahead
Quote
Make them seem more professional
Do you have any more specific ideas how to do that? How would I highlight them a bit more for being a specops unit? Just asking because there are no official NATO troops in Chernarus and these covert units are the only ones (yeah, I'll scratch the US evac chopper :D ). Thus there are no ordinary squads around that these guys would fail to stand out against. You know what I mean?

Thanks for your ideas, mate, I really appreciate it that you are spending so much time and thoughts on it.

Actually I think there are even 2 or 3 chapters to come. But I'm not sure if I will beta-release them as whole chapters. I might update when I finish one or two of the missions.
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands (Arma 3)
Post by: Gruntage on 19 Sep 2018, 23:43:52
Alright so now I have some time to reply  :D

I know what I said was a bit vague so hopefully this'll help. If I was given this mission to design as a project, there's a number of things I'd do to make this seem more 'special'. In my opinion you want to make these guys seem ultra-professional in order so that you don't have the player thinking that these guys aren't even that good.

Firstly, I'd make the Marines the KSK instead. Why? Because the KSK are the guys who rescued Tomas and so straight away they've had a pretty cool impact. We've just had that amazing action sequence, so the notion of Tomas going on an operation with these guys sounds and feels pretty cool. They've already been made to look awesome in the cinematic, so that's half the battle right there.

You can still have the Marines, just put them where KSK were in that mission.

Secondly, choose a different time of day for the operation. This goes back to what I was saying about it supposedly being a covert operation. These guys are not gonna operate in broad daylight. Any Russian is going to be able to recognise who these guys are; by their gear, their uniform etc. So, go for a dusk/dawn or even night time operation instead.

Not only is this more realistic but it also makes the operation feel more 'special'. Subtle things like this really make a difference, despite the objective being rather simple. Operation Rattlesnake was built on this principle.

Those are the two things I'd change straight away. I would also implement the hostage idea...or at least make the castle seem more important. Killing the radio antenna is ok, although the explosion can be heard for miles. I'm not sure if you wanted stealth to be a factor. That's up to you really.

As far as dialogue between the specop guys is concerned, I know I said that perhaps more dialogue is needed. But, I'm wondering whether it's better to keep the amount of dialogue down to a minimum, if any. I think this makes them more interesting. Their minds are totally focused on the operation ahead, so perhaps they don't want to break concentration with chit chat. Also would Tomas be able to speak German? Not sure if that's something to consider.  The KSK don't come across as being the gung-ho type, so maybe keeping them silent might make them seem more professional.

I think I'd have to see this in action to see. Unfortunately we're talking about how things feel, and that ultimately is down to personal opinion.

I hope that helps a little
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands (Arma 3)
Post by: Undeceived on 22 Sep 2018, 09:00:37
Thanks a lot, Gruntage, yeah, that helped a lot.

I'll stick with the Marines (I want to show other NATO specops than the KSK too and ze Germans will have another appearance in a later mission), but I'll change/add some things like dusk or dawn, sabotage of the antenna instead of blowing it up, hostages, personal contact to the KSK or the Czechs so that they take care of the hostages, no U.S.M.C. chopper (civilian one or safehouse in the forest).
Maybe silencers even though I don't know it makes sense because the Russians will shoot as well and if possible I'd like to keep the different weapon types in the group (means: LMG too) as this way it easier to distinguish the members in the conversations. Speaking of different weapons: there will be an explosion anyway because of the UAZ coming to reinforce the antenna...
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands (Arma 3)
Post by: Gruntage on 22 Sep 2018, 21:15:12
Alright so I was able to have a little play at The Mole. I haven't finished it yet, but I can give some feedback based on what I've seen so far.

It's certainly looking to be a very clever mission with some very interesting problem solving to do. I was able to take out the first officer using what I think was the intended method. Knock out the two guys in the garden next door, then knock out 'vasily' and then shoot the officer. It took a few tries to work out a system of misdirection.

But before that though, it didn't seem clear that in order to take out the first guy you'd need to turn him around and then do it. Not too much of a problem, I did figure it out in the end.

One thing I am noticing though is that doesn't take much for the enemies to notice you. Some of those guys can see through fences, and of course when the bullets start flying it's basically game over. Also for some reason some of those guys switch to combat mode but without raising the alarm. Surely if the level of 'danger' is such that you hit the dirt then the alarm should be raised. 

It's certainly a very challenging mission so far but I wonder whether the enemies are too observant. It is dark after all and I'm always moving in the shadows yet they see me anyway. I've run into this problem as well....funny really we often complain that the AI are stupid yet there are times when we want them to be. Getting spotted by a guy through a fence is a bit annoying but it's not the end of the world. Just means having to reload and try something else.

It's a bit like a steady hand game, or treading a tightrope. Seems like I do have to go down a very specific route to avoid detection. But it's good though; it makes you have to think, which is exactly what a stealth mission should be. I know when I'm playing a very good mission because I'm often thinking why on earth didn't I do this  :D. The system of team switching and distracting is very clever indeed. Very Splinter-cell/Metal Gear-esque.

Will resume playing tomorrow
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands (Arma 3)
Post by: Undeceived on 22 Sep 2018, 21:32:06
Thanks, I really was looking forward to read what you think about this mission (just as much I was looking forward to read your feedback on the Resurrection cutscene, for which I needed MONTHS! :D).
I don't know if you know the Commandos game series (a tactical strategy game set in WWII). This mission was inspired by this.

Never had it that the AI detects Tomas through fences or so. What are your AI skill settings? Mine are: Skill 0.70 and Precision 0.50.

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Seems like I do have to go down a very specific route to avoid detection.
There are some routes through the village, not only one.
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands (Arma 3)
Post by: Gruntage on 23 Sep 2018, 08:44:51
I actually have the AI turned all the way down, because if you recall from earlier tests I was having issues with the seemingly unstoppable AI, sometimes even in missions when their 'skill' was very low.

I have encountered this problem elsewhere and was actually the reason why a couple of my projects were shelved. Even with their perception turned down to basically 0, or with parts of their AI disabled, they would still see the player through certain objects; cargo containers in this case. In this case they actually tried to shoot the player through the container, like they'd empty their weapons at the container with the player on the other side. Very annoying and I never worked out a solution.

I wouldn't call the issue gamebreaking, just that the player needs to adjust his strategy to deal with it. In my case it means having to keep my distance, or use the Spy to make them look the other way. Although I'm not sure if I'll need to do this with 2 guys at the same time and how that would work.

Will carry on playing later
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands (Arma 3)
Post by: Undeceived on 23 Sep 2018, 10:17:51
I hate it when I'm not able to reproduce issues that others have. :dry:

Yes, it's possible to have more than one soldier paying attention to the spy.
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands (Arma 3)
Post by: Gruntage on 23 Sep 2018, 16:29:32
Ok so I came back to it to see how far I'd get. I was able to take out all 3 officers; the third one was annoying to get and in the end I just went in the pistol and shot all three guys in that area. Sometimes the brute force approach is best I find.

Unfortunately though, the 'kill the officers' part of the mission is where I come to a dead-end. I cannot use that machine-gun to shoot cans off a fence, let alone take out guys shooting at the spy. Despite steadying the rifle and using the bi-pod, the recoil makes it impossible to shoot enemies quickly. And I need a lot of speed to take out those guys without shooting the spy. If I had a sniper rifle or even a DMR that would help, just something that doesn't have bad recoil. At the moment it's pretty much impossible, and I'm not gonna lie, it's frustrating.

I'll tell you this, I cannot stand the whole 'protect this guy from enemy fire' concept. I've played a lot of games that use this, and it's never been fun; just annoying and a relief when you finally do it. I daresay some people like it, but for me, it just isn't fun.

I would have preferred it if I was the spy and I've got to get in and out myself. Maybe even whilst trying to maintain stealth. I would have also thought that the moment bullets start flying from anyone the alarm bells would be ringing, and it would virtually impossible to get off an island that small without getting killed. Also the spy is getting shot at, yet he's just strolling along like it's a day at the beach. If I was getting shot at and I was holding critical information I'd be sprinting from cover to cover. That adds to the frustration because you're there telling him to move his ass.

Annoying thing is though, this is a really cool mission with suspense throughout, but I just don't like the 'protect the spy' part. It feels a bit like a 'whack-a-mole' game. A silenced sniper rifle might make it more tolerable, but unfortunately I think it's the concept itself I dislike more than the choice of weapon.
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands (Arma 3)
Post by: Undeceived on 23 Sep 2018, 20:04:30
:D Reading your feedback I literally sensed that you didn't like that part at all. :D

I'd suggest though that perhaps you'd still dislike it but not THAT much if everything had worked as intended. :-[ i.e. if the weapon worked right and the spy managed to escape (and this running, not taking a walk). :whistle:
Of course these problems (especially the walking) never occurred in my playthroughs, so .... this is Arma... >:(

I'll give my best to tweak this part so it's not that frustrating. Apart from me you're the first person ever that played it in Arma 3 so your frustration for me is valuable information. ;) Arma 2 was a lot different.

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I would have preferred it if I was the spy
That's a great idea again, but this would take more time than I have right now.

I'll think about the weapon choice though. A SD sniper rifle with that high-tech scope sound like a good idea.

Thanks a lot Gruntage!
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands (Arma 3)
Post by: Undeceived on 23 Sep 2018, 20:56:33
(double post)


Btw, did you notice the sniper and soldier on the towers behind the HQ?

(https://fcmrmg.am.files.1drv.com/y4mFM9l2tpwPFH9aiu32ZQAO8BgLw0xui0JpKU7IpKMwu6F3ihsL2Z8rSMmSwa3eFAd2adup54wbOnaY5VNdlpMBzCiX0nljhcNXyKG9zYqIg95gu5kSpzN522GXET7JYMKCBXTHmJ1mz0lTzCot7SusaJyxRiLfyL776tlBoFmqy3NJXzTk-ywvZUi97tg66c4ScQk0-kkeUf9dmTP6zX8IQ?width=660&height=617&cropmode=none)


EDIT:
Replaced the LMG with a proper DMR with that high-tech scope. You were right. This is MUCH better! :good:
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands (Arma 3)
Post by: Gruntage on 23 Sep 2018, 22:14:32
I didn't notice that guy, and I'm sure there are plenty others I didn't see. I suppose knowing the range would have been useful as well. Maybe a range finder? Maybe not; it depends on how much you want to give the player.

But this kinda comes back to what I said about the 'whack-a-mole' style: trying to spot and kill everyone within a few seconds, and there's bound to be that one guy I didn't see who manages to kill the spy. Then I have to reload and do the whole thing again, and probably miss a different guy. Also what made it more annoying was the fact that these guys have body armour, so if I'm aiming for centre of mass then it will take a few rounds per guy, and that's time lost. By the time I've killed one guy, the spy is dead. Maybe the different rifle will yield different results for me.

Unfortunately I'm not as fast at aiming as I used to be in my youth; years of not playing FPS games has taken its toll  :D So this kind of gameplay just doesn't do it for me. To be honest I don't know if I'd have taken this route if I was designing the mission. I personally think that just getting the guy in the compound is challenging enough, then playing as the spy, get the documents without being spotted. I suppose thats what I'd have done.

Aside from this, the mission is very good and it has everything a stealth mission should have, and more. But this part is very much the fly in the soup.

Interestingly enough, before I found out that this was in fact not the last mission of the campaign, I actually thought this mission would play out very differently. The way the intro cinematic was going, I was convinced that the player would somehow get caught by the Russians in an attempt to help get the spy to safety, and to get the documents to NATO. A kind of sacrifice. That would make an interesting cliffhanger. But, the story is set  :D
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands (Arma 3)
Post by: Undeceived on 27 Sep 2018, 19:33:12
Thanks, Gruntage. Sorry for the late reply, I'm super busy in RL atm.

I have improved this part a bit already. And, as I said, the DMR makes a big difference which I didn't expect at all, tbh. Good idea.
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands (Arma 3)
Post by: Clayman on 01 Oct 2018, 01:26:15
So I just decided to join the party over here, too. :D
Gruntage, I really REALLY love your idea for Petrovka Strike, that the player has to choose whom to rescue. I totally agree that it would add so much depth to the mission / campaign and it perfectly fits into the storyline and the overall dark atmosphere. Undeceived, there is no way that you don't add this! ;)  :clap:

Alright, so let's start a small brainstorming and see if we can't come up with something that isn't too complicated to implement.
Finding a suitable location is no problem imho. There is another village east of Devil's Castle, Gvozno(?). From our route sniper position -> Devil's Castle it's about the same distance as Grishino, just in a different direction. Therefore the player can't reach both locations in time.
The bigger problem could actually be finding a group member who is expandable, but could as well survive. Let's see, who is in our team? Sergej, Miroslav, Tomek, Kamil, Viktor and Petja. Did I forget someone? Miroslav is no option because of Resurrection and we need Sergej for that other mission later on. (I have an idea for that mission too, btw. I'll PM you later with details.) Viktor is too new, the player won't have any relation with him, and he's too unimportant anyways. And Petja, well, after his betrayal earlier I guess most wouldn't care about his fate at all. So we have either Tomek or Kamil. Actually I think Kamil would be an interesting option, as an ex-SF guy he might be the most valauble member of my team.
On the other hand, the more I think about it, maybe Miroslav wouldn't be that bad either. Just that he doesn't get killed if I help the civies, but instead he gets captured and shows up again in Resurrection. In this case the question would be, what happens to Tomas that he ends up captured, too? Maybe he could visit Lucie's grave all alone and run into a Red Star patrol or something...
Also what are the overall consequences of each action? If he rescues Miroslav (or whichever teammate it shall be) they could try to help the civies afterwards only to find them all killed. Maybe only have Jegor alive, if he is important for the further story (not sure about that atm). And if he helps the civies instead?
Well, all in all it's not that easy to get everything right, but I do think it's totally worth all the hassle. Maybe you guys have some ideas, too?

I'd like to post more feedback here, but I'm really having a hard time writing all this in english and I can provide much more detailed feedback in german. So everything else later / tomorrow via PM. :)
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands (Arma 3)
Post by: Undeceived on 01 Oct 2018, 19:50:04
You guys won't settle for less as it seems. :D :D Seems that I will have to tear up some missions to get this awesome idea implemented (not only Petrovka Strike). And goodbye to my goal to finish this around the end of the year. :D

This is shaping up to something that I'm really starting to like and is more and more fitting into the "plot logic". I think the deciding factor is who is going to be the "happy one" that can die when the player chooses to save the civilians. And, Clayman, your idea with Miroslav is great! What about this (it's not perfect down to the last detail yet…)?




Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands (Arma 3)
Post by: Undeceived on 01 Oct 2018, 19:56:23
The downside of this is that Miroslav is killed either way.
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands (Arma 3)
Post by: mathias_eichinger on 01 Oct 2018, 20:20:44
Due to a severe shortage of time, I can only now follow up with Death Came Upon Me.

The intro is perfect like a movie, as is the briefing. The mission itself throws up errors pretty often, and my main gripe is that the rifles are missing from those soldiers I shot just seconds before! Maybe this is a bug, but else it would be a cheap trick.  :whistle:
Armed with just a Makarov I never ventured close to the broken down UAZ but went straight to my hideout, where another perfectly executed outro kicked in.
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands (Arma 3)
Post by: Undeceived on 01 Oct 2018, 20:33:36
Hi Mathias, are you sure that the rifles really are gone? Sometimes when you open the dead soldier's inventory, the rifle isn't there because it landed some cm away.

Thanks a lot for testing it!


Quote
Armed with just a Makarov I never ventured close to the broken down UAZ but went straight to my hideout, where another perfectly executed outro kicked in.
That's fine. The UAZ is just a side-quest that gives you information and some special equipment (NV goggles), but it is not needed to finish the mission.
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands (Arma 3)
Post by: Clayman on 01 Oct 2018, 23:56:10
Quote
The downside of this is that Miroslav is killed either way.

I agree, it is pretty odd that you save Miroslav, just to watch him being killed in the very next mission. Such a vital decision must have a noticeable effect on the story. Therefore Miroslav is not a good option imho.
So what about either Kamil or Tomek? I can't remember how important both of them are for the rest of the campaign. Either way, I don't see the need to introduce a new guy to the team just to get him killed during the mission.
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands (Arma 3)
Post by: Undeceived on 02 Oct 2018, 00:11:26
Yeah, I think you're right... :dry: I'll check it out if I could sacrifice either Tomek or Kamil. The problem is that both of them (especially Kamil) have lots of dialogs in the remaining missions which I would have to adapt (either with someone else talking or not at all).

It's really itching me to go with Kamil as he's (as you said) the most skilled member of the group. Seeing him dying would definitely have a big impact on the player. He would perhaps think of replaying the mission but then realize that it's sooo long... :D so maybe he'd have to live with this huge loss.

BUT...... (damn - I'm noticing this while writing) Kamil is going with Tomas to kill the colonel. As he's this killing machine, it doesn't make sense to leave him behind in Grishino. So it seems Tomek is the only one left to take.
The idea is so good that I'd even agree to adapt the whole further story to it.

One remaining question: How does the player get to know about the incidents in the civilian village?

And one other thought (problem): If there are these two choices (Tomek or the civilians): Why wouldn't Tomas and Kamil split up - Tomas going to one village and Kamil to the other one?
Damn....... >:(
The only way I can think of to prevent this would be that Tomas goes alone to kill the colonel. But why should he do this without Kamil?
Or they both go to kill the colonel but only Tomas goes back. But why?

:weeping: So many obstacles in the way of this...
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands (Arma 3)
Post by: Clayman on 02 Oct 2018, 01:26:42
I was already thinking about the Kamil problem. There must be a good reason for him to stay in Grishino. So far I couldn't think of anything plausible. It just makes no sense for him to not join Tomas on the sniper mission. While it would be the most interesting choice dramaturgy-wise, it wouldn't work out in any logical way. And overall I think that Kamil is too important for the further story anyways. So in the end it all comes down to Tomek being the chosen one.

How the player gets to know about the second village is a good question I haven't thought about so far.  :D Maybe Gruntage can tell us, after all it was his idea.  :D

Why they don't split up is easy: There are too many enemies in both villages for only one guy. They need to work together to stand a chance.  ;)
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands (Arma 3)
Post by: Gruntage on 02 Oct 2018, 08:36:00
Wow you guys have given me a lot of reading to do  :D

Alright so it's been a little while since I played that mission and it's been a few days since I last played the campaign, so bear with me. How do they find out about the village? Admittedly when I first came up with the idea I thought that the information could come from Nemec in some way. Would it have been possible to pick up radio traffic? Maybe thats a bit implausible.

We have a couple of guys in the colonel's village don't we? Think Miroslav is there and he does the flash thing with his camera. I wonder if perhaps they overheard them say the names of 2 villages? 2 villages as a reprisal for the colonel's killing. Let's say Miroslav overhears this, and reports it to Tomas over the radio. Tomek is at the castle if I recall, so perhaps he decides to take it upon himself to rescue the folks in Grishino (Is that the name of the closest village?). Maybe the guy is panicking, and he's not thinking clearly...so he goes knowing full well that he's going to be overwhelmed. But he's going to try anyway.

Tomas at this point is probably yelling at Tomek not to do anything stupid or throw his life away. Tomek could respond by saying he's not going to let these people die because of us. Already we're creating alot of drama and panic which is exactly what we want in this situation. Tomek is made to look more meaningful in this as well, it makes him look heroic (or stupid  :D ). So, this makes the decision difficult for the player.

The ending cinematic is going to be very interesting to watch, because it's going to be based on the decision the player made. I'm looking forward to seeing it already  :D What will the rest of the team think about Tomas's decision? They probably will be divided on it. You might have Sergei saying that by rescuing the villagers you did the right thing. But you might have one of Tomek's friends saying that you condemned Tomek to death by not saving him. If you do it right, and I have no doubt that you will, it could be the best cinematic in the campaign. So I wish you luck when you come to it  ;)

If Tomek was made to look a bit useless, then the decision is easy to make. When it comes to choosing a guy to sacrifice, you want to make an impact on the player. The player needs to know who this guy is, so that it becomes a 'oh god not blabla' moment. So in order to do that, you want to make the guy being sacrificed important. But, do you pick the most skilled guy?

My answer is not necessarily. If you give Tomek a lot of exposure...meaning you give him a lot of dialogue in the story, then he becomes memorable, and so his death has more impact on the player. Probably the best comparison I can make, is in the OFP Resistance campaign, when Stoyan Yakotich gets killed. Very specific reference I know, but perhaps you remember. He's only given a few lines of dialogue in the story, yet when he gets killed by his own men, it does have an impact on the player.

I always saw it as Tomek being the chosen one but I think that was mostly because he was the poor guy in the village  :D

On the last point about why Tomas and Kamil don't split up, well Clay hit the nail on the head. Splitting up is probably the worst thing you can do, because the odds of survival drop for both guys. You want one guy to watch your back, and vice versa. Guys running off on their own is a death sentence; which is actually what awaits Tomek should the player decide to rescue the villagers. That's the price for his decision to run off on his own. Or is it? Thats up to the player  :scratch:

Unfortunately IRL has been preventing me from finishing the last mission, but hopefully I'll get chance to finish it tonight, or this weekend if I'm not busy.
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands (Arma 3)
Post by: Undeceived on 02 Oct 2018, 10:34:20
Wow, Gruntage, you really are INSIDE the campaign or in other words: You know how to develop a story. :clap: Your ideas and dialog suggestions especially regarding the importance of Tomek, but also for the ending scene and the team member's reactions are awesome. I assume though that you have other camera angles and thoughts in mind on the cutscene so you might not get what you are expecting. But I guess you'll be able to live with that. :D

I think that this part is set now. Thousand thanks to you both! It will be a ton of work but at the moment I'm motivated. Good that Arma 4 wasn't even announced. :D

Regarding the Mole mission (Gruntage): You can finish it but I'm also working on it these days (the baby-sitting will stay but hopefully it will be a bit more improved) and I'll probably push an update this or next week. What you missed is (just) the mole joining you and then the task to deliver him to the coast where NATO divers wait for you.
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands (Arma 3)
Post by: Clayman on 02 Oct 2018, 14:34:27
Great idea of adding some more value to Tomek and creating some drama makes the decision much more complicated. I just wanted to point out that it must be clear to the player that he can't rescue the civilians in Grishino. If we have the options to rescue Tomek AND the civilians vs only the civilians in the other village, it's quite obvious which way to go. We need this Tomek OR the civis situation.
And yes, I too am very much looking forward to see the finished mission and especially the ending cutscene.  :D


As a note to myself: Re-play the Resistance campaign. I have no clue who Stoyan Yakotich is...  :whistle:
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands (Arma 3)
Post by: Gruntage on 02 Oct 2018, 18:40:13
Quote
I assume though that you have other camera angles and thoughts in mind on the cutscene so you might not get what you are expecting. But I guess you'll be able to live with that

I don't actually have any preconceived ideas for the cutscene  :D This probably goes without saying but the setting should definitely be a thunderstorm, to really capture the dark mood. No matter what choice the player makes, people suffer as a result. But really that's the only idea I had. I'll definitely try and not imagine what it would be like and instead wait and see  :D

Quote
I just wanted to point out that it must be clear to the player that he can't rescue the civilians in Grishino. If we have the options to rescue Tomek AND the civilians vs only the civilians in the other village, it's quite obvious which way to go. We need this Tomek OR the civis situation.

That is actually a good point and I forgot about the civis in Grishino. I suppose Tomek was successful in warning the civis in Grishino of what's coming, but he won't be able to escape himself. I guess he tries to buy time while the civis escape. Again, this makes him look heroic and meaningful.

As for Stoyan, he's actually a pretty minor character, but yet he's memorable because he's given dialogue and that instantly makes him memorable. So when he dies, it does come as a bit of a shock to first-time viewers. That cutscene where it takes place is actually good to refer to for this. My critique of it though is that they don't really follow it up in the next mission; it feels disjointed. But anyway, that's a different campaign entirely  :D

I'll wait a bit before finishing the Mole until the changed version is up.
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands (Arma 3)
Post by: Clayman on 02 Oct 2018, 21:09:14
Somehow I can't stop thinking about this all day long, trying to put it all together in a plausible way. I can't help it, but I think the civilians in Grishino should be doomed no matter what. Just to show how pissed off the Russians / RS are about the killed colonel and for the extra bit of drama. So I came up with this. Might need some fine-tuning here and there, but overall it should work (hopefully).


I hope I didn't miss anything obvious.^^
It's kinda irritating how much time I put into this. But it's actually great fun to plan this out with you guys. :D
I'm so looking forward to play this mission. :clap:
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands (Arma 3)
Post by: Undeceived on 03 Oct 2018, 00:16:07
A word that I used a lot in the last 24 hours: Wow! :o

 :good: :good: :good: :good: :good:

Quote
I hope I didn't miss anything obvious.^^
Not having thought too much about it as I'm busy with another mission right now I'd say that there's everything we need. But we well see when I'm working on it. :D

A small addition: Not Miroslav hears the names of the villages, as he is far away in the village hall. But Viktor hears it as they both (will) have split up and he by coincidence is at another place closer to the meeting point of the colonel and the RS/Spetsnaz.


By the way, Clayman - one question I wanted to ask for a long time but I always forgot: Did you notice the similarity of this mission with Evil's Last Will? :D As it is right now it is more or less a copy of it. :)


Quote
It's kinda irritating how much time I put into this. But it's actually great fun to plan this out with you guys.
This is so much fun and I can't thank you both enough for your help! You will have a special place in the credits. :)
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands (Arma 3)
Post by: Clayman on 03 Oct 2018, 00:44:34
Quote
By the way, Clayman - one question I wanted to ask for a long time but I always forgot: Did you notice the similarity of this mission with Evil's Last Will? :D As it is right now it is more or less a copy of it. :)
Well, to be honest, I never before thought about that. But now that you mention it, yes, these missions are indeed pretty similar.  :whistle: I DID however notice the similarity of the beginnings of both Martin's List and For the Life of a Friend. Does that count? :D


Quote
This is so much fun and I can't thank you both enough for your help! You will have a special place in the credits. :)
I'm pretty sure I said this to you earlier, but I'll never get tired of repeating it: It's a great thing that you are actually open minded to adapt such ideas, even though it means that you have to redesign the complete mission. (...and it sometimes takes some time to convince you. :D) The result however is always a very special mission, which is totally worth all the time invested.  :)
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands (Arma 3)
Post by: Undeceived on 03 Oct 2018, 00:59:54
Quote
I DID however notice the similarity of the beginnings of both Martin's List and For the Life of a Friend. Does that count? :D
No kidding, I don't know what you mean. :D (echt jetzt)

Quote
it sometimes takes some time to convince you.
I know, I know... :D
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands (Arma 3)
Post by: Clayman on 03 Oct 2018, 01:22:28
Quote
No kidding, I don't know what you mean. :D (echt jetzt)
Seriously? ???  I thought it was quite obvious that Pawel and his boss are an hommage to Piotr. And the cameo appearance of Kostja... Up until now I was sure that was intentional.
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands (Arma 3)
Post by: Undeceived on 03 Oct 2018, 01:27:33
Hahaha :D :D No, as far as I recall it isn't related. While creating that Pawel dialog at least, I didn't think about FTLOAF at all. :) I think the name is just a nice coincidence. But it makes sense indeed because Pawel really was a lazy ass! :D
And the rockers, well - yeah, that makes sense too, but I don't remember if I had Kostja in mind back there. :D (I probably had)
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands (Arma 3)
Post by: Undeceived on 03 Oct 2018, 01:36:20
Oh, by the way, Piotr himself has a cameo appearance in mission 15. I don't know if you remember or saw him from A2 times, he is an reinforcement option in Guglovo.

Other than that I can remember a small easter-egg in Setting-Up Time, at the Russian road check in Vybor, where the player can either tell his real name (Tomas Cerny) and get shot or lie and introduce himself as "Peter Novak". This is the player character in the well-known campaign "Operation Cobalt (https://www.ofpec.com/missions_depot/index.php?action=details&id=264)" by Zipper5.
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands (Arma 3)
Post by: Clayman on 03 Oct 2018, 01:53:25
Of course I noticed Piotr. It was so cool to see him again in this campaign.  :)

The name Peter Novak always sounded familiar, but I never could tell where I had heard it before. Very nice little detail.  :good:
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands (Arma 3)
Post by: mathias_eichinger on 21 Oct 2018, 12:15:32
Wow, lots of activity here.

I am positive about the missing rifle in Death Came Upon Me as I always check the ground too, not just the inventory.
Awakening was a great story telling mission, I really admire your cinematics. I hugged the shore most of my approach so sneaking to the agent was not difficult, and the rest was rather straightforward.
Starting to inflame again I was bug free but very challenging. I think the amount and short reaction time of enemy infantry trying to catch you on the way to the boat is overdone.
Starting to infame again II A very good mission once you want to get away from the Black site. Just too many mission-critical individuals that always fall prey to the "teleported enemy infantry", ending the mission each time. After about 15+ retries I gave up in frustration.


Partial beta test forSetting up time: Cinematics and story telling are top notch and really are testament about the time and effort that went into this masterpiece.
However, unlike the last missions, approaching Myshkino slows my PC down to a slideshow. It seems that there are a ton of scripts at work here. The dialoge with the salesman is just pure gold.
However, after countless retries at the Russian medical depot I just gave up. I feel like a dork wasting my life trying to beat a campaign that has just nightmarish difficulty. I might get back to it some time, but no guarantees.

Martin's list appeared to be a bit easier, but now I am stuck at a critical bug. I layed some satchels with a team mate at the road where you have to ambush the convoy. Teamswitched to the group leader and back to the saboteur - and the action to detonate the Satchels is gone!

Martin's List II is a tricky, but ultimatively possible mission without any bugs - great storytelling in the cutscene at the end. This was one mission I really enjoyed!

Inner Abscess is very good about story telling, the action takes a back seat on this mission, but it is very important for the story arch of this campaign. Well done!

Alexej Pribotov is excellent storytelling up until the last part. When I try to dislodge the infantry at the last known GPS position, I am overwhelmed by a T72 without a practical counter strategy. Another case of cheat-ending a mission.  >:(

Petrovka Strike (Preparations) is easily the most atmospheric gear selection sequence I ever played, very well done.

Petrovka Strike is another one of my half-baked beta tests. I can say that the objective to take the sniper rifle does not tick off, despite me grabbing a SVD Dragunov from the ammo truck. Plus, the SVD optics as explained from the briefing appear to have 1 chevron more than the real rifle, so I cannot hit the target!

Resurrection & Back to Safety are some of the best storytelling and camerascripted missions Arma3 has to offer - not much interaction from the player here, but almost as dramatic as in the cinema! With camera angles even up to a movie.

The Picture is a nice mildly challenging mission until it hits a showstopper in the castle. That camera is nowhere to be found. I searched every killed soldier, having high hopes about the officer, there is a wooden shack in the ruins that cannot be entered, and one of the towers can be climbed - not containing any trace of that camera. I am at a loss where to find it.

The Mole has an excellent mission concept that fails miserably in technical implementation. Within the limits of the mission area, it is not possible to crawl on one's belly unnoticed behind the soldier despite him being in discussion with our officer. He will always notice and shoot you.
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands (Arma 3)
Post by: Undeceived on 28 Aug 2022, 03:53:48
Damn, it's really 4 years since the last post. :D It felt like a year or so because your feedback and the discussion were so productive, a really good experience. :)

Just a small hello from my side. And the info that work on this project did not stop (ok, it did for some years, but I always got back to editing once in a while). Almost all of your ideas and suggestions made it into the campaign. Right now I'm having a good motivation phase, but there's still much work before I can release a new version.

Again, thanks a lot for your help testing this!

See you soon, hopefully.
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands (Arma 3)
Post by: Gruntage on 28 Aug 2022, 14:12:48
Hey Undeceived, great to hear you're stilll working on this! I remember it was a lot of fun testing this and I can't wait to see what you've done with it  :). I had something in the works back in April but now I'm trying to get my good motivation phase back  :D

Hope to see you soon  :good:
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands (Arma 3)
Post by: Undeceived on 29 Aug 2022, 16:30:21
Oh and... @mathias_eichinger, after 4 years at last a big thank you for your test! :D I'll look into the issues you reported and thanks for the positive feedback too.
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands (Arma 3)
Post by: Inlesco on 30 Jun 2023, 09:10:12
Hey Undeceived! Long time no speak.

We're still waiting for a new version to play! We're still hungry for Black Lands! :D

Hope you're doing great, my friend. It's been a pleasure to provide feedback on your content back in the olden days. (I was more active on BIS forums instead of here back then.)
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands (Arma 3)
Post by: Undeceived on 17 Sep 2023, 11:22:31
Hi and thanks! :D

From time to time I have a phase of some weeks where I dive into editing and then eventually the "water" is gone again, so to speak. At the moment there's no water too.

But I'll check out Bobcat from Gruntage. Hopefully this will pull me back to Arma again. The project is still active though, I didn't quit Arma. It's only that other games are more interesting most of the time. :)

Many thanks to you and all the others for the great feedback and testing so far!


Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands (Arma 3)
Post by: Undeceived on 22 Dec 2023, 01:25:46
Hello guys.

A small update for those who are interested... Since November 2023 I'm back working full steam on the campaign. In the past years I always returned to it and pushed it forward. In the current phase I'm getting there slowly, which means that I really want to get a new version out soon, which probably won't be in December anymore, but it should / could perhaps be possible in January. Or even between Christmas and New Year's Eve (not sure on that though).

I'd appreciate it if there were some willing souls to test the hell out of the campaign again. There are so many improvements that made it in. Other than that all (or at least the most important) ideas and wishes in this thread are in as well. Some of them are so cool, I still remember our discussions five years ago so well. :D And they really pushed the campaign forward.

And of course the rest of the missions is in there too, in the last version, there were only the first 13 out of 20 missions.

Ok, as I probably won't be able to publish the new version as a Christmas gift for you, I wish you all a merry Christmas and a happy new year!



(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1009784488655601705/1187559508340383834/bl2.png?ex=659753fa&is=6584defa&hm=b0695d3d5c6d6555735a9bdd70d21f52c5bb5737ee012c5027dda0a0e9752ce5&)


(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1009784488655601705/1187559508717883432/bl3.png?ex=659753fa&is=6584defa&hm=135bdcc56161cb4f547a70bb37252e46006c38717c3064578f93355471c0848e&)


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Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands (Arma 3)
Post by: Gruntage on 22 Dec 2023, 15:09:07
I'll be very happy to continue play testing this one when the new version is up  :good:
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands
Post by: Undeceived on 23 Jan 2024, 21:04:05
Hello guys!

So finally here we go with a new version (0.7 beta, see first post). I still can't believe that this is true. 

B E T A ! !  Everything's in?!? What the heck?? :blink:

Since November I worked non-stop on the campaign and not even a bad case of flu this week was able to stop me (I'm still not well though).

I really hope that everything works. Because of the illness, I really couldn't manage do another test run... :no:

If there is any trouble, I will be able to fix it quickly.

All tests are - as always - highly appreciated! Thanks for your time and have fun.

I'll post some things later that I'm planning for a next version, just as reference, in case you notice them too.
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands
Post by: Undeceived on 24 Jan 2024, 16:52:03
I noticed a unpleasant bug in the first mission (the officer's UAZ getting stuck because of some infantry). I'll update this later today.
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands
Post by: Clayman on 24 Jan 2024, 17:57:35
Hi Undeceived!

I was so much looking forward to finally being able to play Black Lands in all it's glory. After all this time though, my hopes were pretty low that this day would ever come. But here we are... and I'm really hyped. I can't thank you enough for all the work you must have put into this campaign. So I quit work earlier today and have a day off tomorrow so I have some time to playtest and see what you have created... especially regarding Petrovka Strike, for obvious reasons. I still remember you, Gruntage and me planing out that mission like it was yesterday. Knowing myself, I would have rushed through all other missions just to get there as quickly as possible. But that is neither what this masterpiece deserves, nor how to properly test a campaign. I want to take my time with each mission and thoroughly check every ammobox and unlocked veheicle.  :P
So I just had to get it out of the way...  :whistle:


That being said, off to Petrovka Strike.
I was right back into the story from the beginning, the atmosphere was dense and the music on point. In the last version I played I remember the timing was very tight and I had to hurry up to set up an ambush. This time I had more time, which made it quite a bit easier. It still took me three attempts to capture the truck. (The first one because of my own incompetence to remember my controls setup, I couldn't remember how to switch to my RPG.^^ I hadn't played any Arma for quite a while...)

The next thing I noticed was that the bright nights script doesn't seem to work, I had no option to adjust the brightness anywhere. But turning the ingame brightness to max solved this problem. Would be cool to have this option again anyways, especially as it's being mentions in the briefing.

I took the truck and drove to Grishino, grabed the sniper rifle and talked to the pilot. When inspecting the parked vehicles I found the motorbike with a personal note for me.  :D Seems like you have even more planes for this mission. Really looking forward what you're cooking up here.
The helicopter ride went flawless. Not sure if there was a situation in a previous version where ATC contaced the pilot as of why he left his route. Maybe that was a completely different mission. Would have added some more stress to the situation.

During the cutscene at the sniper position, some kind of scope-overlay would have been cool. But it was a great cutscene nonetheless and the music was on point once again.
The hardest part of the mission was probably hitting the target with a single shot. Finding out I can deploy the bipod merely by coincidence was already helpful. But it took quite some time to get a hang of that pso scope. The feature that the game cuts from the scope view right after every shot didn't help in determining where my shots actually hit, unless it was the last round in the magazine. I ended up firing four times in the air before aiming at the colonel. Ironically I killed him with the very next shot.

After the sniper task was complete, there was no waypoint showing the way. Normally that wouldn't be that much of a problem. On my second play through though, knowing what would come, I headed straight to Gvozdno obviously bypassing the trigger to start the next task. I ended up in an empty village. Of course it was my own fault. But as the campaign and this mission in particular have quite some replayability value, it seems not that unlikely that a player could choose this route. At least you might guide him in the correct direction by adding a waypoint.

The rain added really well to the overall atmosphere. The only downside was that there where almost no clouds in the sky. That looked a bit odd. However, that didn't matter anymore once Tomek and the decision making task kicked in. Oh boy was that thrilling. Or, to quote myself:
Quote
Add dramatic music, and voila! There we have our situation.
Did I mention that the music in this mission is completely on point? I literally had goosebumps all over while hurrying through the forest. Of course I tried both variants and both of them where crafted perfectly. Back in the day when Gruntage originally came up with this idea, I knew exactly which way I would go in my final playthrough. Unfortunately I couldn't remember what I had planed back then. Making this decision was really hard. It was such a tense situation. You have created an truly epic mission! (I'm  really looking forward to read feedback by someone who hasn't played this before.^^)

However, while fighting my way through Grishino, a thought struck my mind which I had never considered before. As the Spetsnaz are searching the village for Tomek, and in the end I kill them all off, who is left to take care of Gvozdno? Is there a second strike team? How long are they going to search anyway before they move on? Or before they find Tomek? Should there be some kind of timer for the player to rescue him? Probably that would be too much. I don't know, maybe I'm overthinking it here. It just came to my mind while playing and I felt like mentioning it here.

Another thought, I can remember that there was another part in this mission, where you meet with that other rebel guy and the mission ends in that abandoned village to the south. (Sorry, can't remember the name right now.) It seems you cut that part completely, which is a good idea. It would feel disconnected after all that Tomek drama. But do you follow up on that in some other mission? I think it was quite important to end the mission in that village for the further plot. Well, maybe I'll just have to properly play the campaign an find out for myself.  :D

When clearing either of the villages, Kamil at some point reveals that the Spetsnaz are in fact the guys who talked to the colonel earlier. This is displayed as titletext, instead of a chat message like all the other conversation. Not sure if this was intentional.
One spelling mistake I noticed was in another message from Kamil: "They know he's is there somewhere."
While clearing Gvozdno I tried to enter the church compound. The only way being across the debris, which was no problem, but I got injured every time. Again, not sure if that's intentional, as the debris where burning, too.


Oh wow, what a mission. I am truly impressed by what you have created here and the long wait was totally worth it. Thank you so much for this. I guess I will have to play the campaign at least twice now, to see the consequences of my decision in the forthcoming missions. Really excited to see what's coming.

PS: Gute Besserung  :)
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands
Post by: Undeceived on 24 Jan 2024, 18:00:53
Ok, here are some things I want to change / improve in the next version.
As reference for beta tests.



SPOILERS!



Starting phase of the campaign in general:
Intro II
Setting-Up Time
Alexej Pribotow
The "Setup" missions (manage team and "live" weapon pool)
Petrovka Strike
The Mole

More smaller things in some other missions.
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands
Post by: Clayman on 24 Jan 2024, 18:06:13
Quote
Find a way to shorten the amount of cutscenes
No. Just no. Just like in real life - longer is better.  :P


Quote
Make the Russians prevent Clayman looting the military site at mission start
:D :D :D :D :D
Good luck with that my friend.  :clap: :whistle:
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands
Post by: Undeceived on 24 Jan 2024, 18:14:54
Haha Clayman, thanks a lot for that report! Didn't expect that! :D

I'll answer later. So many new ideas and notes to take. Thanks.
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands
Post by: Undeceived on 24 Jan 2024, 18:45:59
@Clayman - one question in advance: Did you not see one of the two "Consequences" cutscenes after the mission? They're not part of the mission but different missions, so if you pressed "Replay" for Petrovka Strike and not "Revert", then I think they did not show up.

If not, do not spoil yourself with them, but watch them the next time you get there.  :P
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands
Post by: Clayman on 24 Jan 2024, 19:51:03
Oh no, how could I forget the outro(s)? Of course I've watched both of them.
What can I say? Both of them were spectacular. The atmosphere, the weather, the music, the great use of animations. Everything was fantastic and exactly what one would expect from you. Perfectly crafted to conclude the plot. The only thing I noticed, and I'm really nitpicking here, are some of the subtitles from one scene carrying over to the next. But overall both scenes are totally on par with the other cutscenes and the campaign in total. Great work.  :good:
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands
Post by: Undeceived on 24 Jan 2024, 20:39:33
Quote
I've watched both of them
Ok, good. :good:

I noted many things out of your post, thanks!

So did I read it correctly that you played the mission twice and the following situation didn't happen: You going to one village and then directly to the other one? :hmmm:

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The feature that the game cuts from the scope view right after every shot didn't help in determining where my shots actually hit
I think you can stay in the PSO view when you don't release the shooting mouse button. Martin will include this in his notes.

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After the sniper task was complete, there was no waypoint showing the way.
Will double check that - there should be one, leading to Devil's Castle. But I'll think about something if a experienced player takes the same route than you.

Quote
Another thought, I can remember that there was another part in this mission, where you meet with that other rebel guy and the mission ends in that abandoned village to the south.
Yes, I scratched that part completely. There was an revenge attack on a Russian camp where these guys joined you. Having lost either both villages or Grishino and Tomek has such an impact on everyone that they withdraw first and rally up in Kumyrna. The new guys join there.

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I think it was quite important to end the mission in that village for the further plot.
Yes, indeed! :yes: >:D

Quote
The only way being across the debris, which was no problem, but I got injured every time.
I'll see what I can do.


Quote
No. Just no. Just like in real life - longer is better.  :P
Really not? Did you never think "Hmm, nice cutscenes, but at some point I want to start playing too"?

Quote
Good luck with that my friend.  :clap: :whistle:
Ehm, don't expect too much, ok? :D
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands
Post by: Undeceived on 24 Jan 2024, 21:07:20
Ok, I updated the campaign with that small fix in the first mission.

If you're already past this part, then you don't need it, nothing else was changed (apart from shortening the second intro of that mission a little bit :) ).
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands
Post by: Clayman on 24 Jan 2024, 21:35:42
Quote
So did I read it correctly that you played the mission twice and the following situation didn't happen: You going to one village and then directly to the other one?

Errm, I'm not quite sure what you mean...

Yes, I played the mission twice. First time I went for Grishino to rescue Tomek and the second time I went for Gvozdno. (After reaching the empty village I loaded my last save, headed towards Devil's Castle to trigger the conversation and then went to Gvozdno.)

Both times the mission ended after I killed the last loon. Is there a way to visit both villages in one playthrough? Or are you talking about the cutscenes?


Quote
Did you never think "Hmm, nice cutscenes, but at some point I want to start playing too"?

Actually, no. I like watching beautifully crafted cutscenes. But that's probably just me.
Now that I have watched the intro again, I have to admit that it is quite lengthy. But too long? I don't know.


Edit:
Quote
Will double check that - there should be one, leading to Devil's Castle.
I'm not 100% sure about this, but I think there wasn't any active/incompleted task at all at that point.
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands
Post by: Undeceived on 24 Jan 2024, 22:30:38
Did you play the preparation mission that comes before Petrovka Strike?

As it seems there is a showstopper. Don't ask me how that happened, I have no idea why exactly now, after 5 years, the mission decides to break... :(


Quote
Actually, no. I like watching beautifully crafted cutscenes. But that's probably just me.
Now that I have watched the intro again, I have to admit that it is quite lengthy. But too long? I don't know.
Nah, it's not only the intro sequence, but there are so many cutscenes that it feels too much (from my point of view).


Quote
Yes, I played the mission twice.
That's enough for me. No, moving from one village to the other should not happen at all. :)
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands
Post by: Undeceived on 24 Jan 2024, 23:44:14
SHOWSTOPPER FIXED

Yeah, there was a showstopper in that mission (the "Setup" mission before Petrovka Strike). I'm quite angry, because an AI didn't move no matter what I'd command it to do. Eventually I found out that the reason was a first aid kit, that I had placed somewhere.

Anyway, I fixed it and the first post is updated. You should have no problem with the campaign flow when updating it.

Have to stop now until tomorrow evening, I hope everything else works now.
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands
Post by: Clayman on 25 Jan 2024, 01:28:36
Quote
Did you play the preparation mission that comes before Petrovka Strike?

No, only the actual mission. So I guess I started out with either the stuff from my last take or the default loadout. I don't know how Arma works when reverting from an older version to a new one and if this might cause some other issues.


Meanwhile I have played the first few missions. As I had thoroughly tested these in the previous version, and I believe not that much was changed, I'll keep this short for now. But I have to mention that I totally love the opening scene. It's so well orchestrated, the text sets the mood for the journey to come and that piano tune is plain beautiful.

Speaking of the intros, I really like the color shift in the overview pictures. Great detail.
Overall there have been some pretty nice shots for the overview pics.


I had some trouble with the UAZ in Death came upon me. Thought it was because I was in an ongoing firefight with the enemy. But it seem you already fixed that, so everything should be fine. No other probelms spotted.


In Awakening I couldn't find any loot in any of the vehicles. I guess that's something good.  :D
I did notice two smaller things, though. First the black Skoda isn't locked, unlike all other vehicles I came across. And, probably I had mentioned this before, there are several patrols in the industrial area, while in the town center it felt quite empty. I feel like it should be the other way around, as it's more likely to find people violating the curfew in the residential areas. Other than that, the mission felt pretty solid.


Starting to inflame again seems to be quite polished and foolproof (Clayman-proof?^^) by now. Only did one run, but so far I found nothing to give me an unfair advantage. I can't remember some random patrol greeting me as I was walking through the streets. Nice little detail. Also the drunk soldier lying on the floor in the back room of the bar was kinda funny with all those beer cans around him. Probably would have been better for him to stick with vodka like his comrades.

One of the guys in the back of the bar (towards the main street) kept glitching through the wall. It felt a bit unfair, if I could have moved through walls, it would have been easier for me to take down the major.

During the second part of the mission, while liberating the camp, a BTR showed up as reinforcement. But when I finally managed to pick up a RPG, the BTR was gone, never to be seen again.


During the briefing to Setting-up time, it was mentioned that we are running low on medical supplies. I kinda doubt that, I took like 20 medikits from the last mission. They can't have used them all in only one night...  :dunno:


Tomorrow I'm gonna continue from here with the updated version.
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands
Post by: Undeceived on 25 Jan 2024, 12:36:19
Quote
First the black Skoda isn't locked
:D The most important car. Thanks! It's locked now.

Quote
During the briefing to Setting-up time, it was mentioned that we are running low on medical supplies. I kinda doubt that, I took like 20 medikits from the last mission.
Yeah, I thought about this, too. I'll change it this way that the needed medical equipment for Tomek is empty (whatever that might be :) ).


Thank you!
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands
Post by: Clayman on 25 Jan 2024, 21:41:07
So today I spent some time with Setting-up time. I hadn't planed to play that mission for so long, in the end it where nearly four hours ingame, disregarding some breaks I took and the countless reloads. I guess I got lost in the process at some point. It has been a long day.^^


Overall it was a disappointing affair, no vehicles to steal, no ammoboxes to loot. It made my life a lot harder trying to prepare my men for the next world war... As it seems my constant nagging finally shows some effect.  :D
On a more serious note, most of the mission went pretty flawless. No major bugs or showstoppers where spotted. I was always keeping my eyes open if I could find anything new to discover, like additional sidetasks or other hidden secrets. But the mission already is massive with lots of stuff to uncover.


However, there have been a few smaller flaws I encountered.
There seemed to be some missing buildings in Zelenogorsk. Looked kinda odd. Unless my graphics a going completely nuts.

I still couldn't get Matai to repair any vehicles. While I can talk to him and he will join my group, when I tell him to repair a vehicle, he immediately leaves my group and goes back to repair his own truck. After that I couldn't talk to him anymore.

On my way to Kamils house I took a detour to blow up the gas station. Although I destroyed both the actual fuel station and the fuel tanks in the yard, the objective didn't tick off. But therefore Matais dialog options suddenly showed up again. As I just wanted to end the mission at that point I didn't try to interact with him again.

While rescuing Pvt Radik, I noticed one unarmed russian soldier running all over the place. As he was no threat to me I spared him. Sergej however didn't show no mercy and killed the poor guy on the spot.

While I do appreciate that I can't capture a whole fleet of vehicles anymore, it would be nice if there would be at least one truck I could use. Either from the fuel depot or at Radiks house. Besides the fuel truck, the only vehicles I could obtain where two UAZs. Apart from the limited storage capabilities, getting Sergej to drive one of the UAZs back to the camp without running into one of the many patrols was not that much fun.
Talking of vehicles, I felt that a few parked trucks or something would do well at the depot. I looked a bit empty overall.

After I had stolen the motorbike it didn't take long for the police to show up. However, they were still searching the village three hours later. Doesn't the police in Chernarus have anything better to do? Actually I would be willing to return the motorbike after I had obtained a better vehicle. But the cops always started shooting at me on sight so I had to take a detour around the village every time on my way from the camp or back.

When I arrived at Kamils house, I noticed a dead civilian lying in front of a parked truck and some other guys standing around him. But noone seemed to bother.
When Kamil asked about our equipment and Tomas answered "almost nothing", I thought "well, except for hundreds of weapons an a ton of ammunition...". While looting the hell out of this mission still is fun, getting all the stuff back to the camp would greatly benefit from a larger vehicle.  ;)

I guess as soon as I attack any russians, there is no way to go undercover again? There where several situations where a random patrol would shoot at me from afar, while I was in the UAZ and had no weapon equipped.


Overall I had a blast playing this. I guess I kinda fell in love with this mission (again). You can easily get lost in the atmosphere and the open gameplay. It was really fun and by times quite challenging. A great mission overall and I'm looking forward to your plans regarding Dalibor and the Salesman.
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands
Post by: Undeceived on 25 Jan 2024, 23:10:23
Thanks!

I will adress some of the things. And ok, one truck cannot hurt. :D You should keep the limits of the crate in the camp in mind though (yes, everything, even vehicle cargo, is transferred to the crate at mission end)! :) I'm not planning to expand the storage capacities, especially because upcoming missions are not designed for an whole army, but for a small but effective group.

Quote
I guess as soon as I attack any russians, there is no way to go undercover again?
Exactly. I don't remember why, think, because it was to complex and buggy otherwise. This is why I wrote in the briefing that they'll send a person description to all units in the area.

Matei not working again?... Phew... I'll take a look what's the problem.

Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands
Post by: Clayman on 26 Jan 2024, 14:37:24
Hey, I don't have much time right now, but I wanted to tell you that I did another very quick run of the mission to check how Matai is doing. This time everything worked out just fine. Unlike yesterday, I made sure that the vehicle is in fact damaged. Last time I guess the car was still intact. Might have something to do with that.
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands
Post by: Gruntage on 27 Jan 2024, 14:57:42
Man I really wanted to dive back into this as soon as the Beta post popped up, but I'm sadly swamped with IRL crap and so free time is in short supply. However, I've put aside a few hours today to post some of my thoughts. It's been a while since I played this so it feels like playing a new campaign again. Hopefully I won't repeat anything I've said previously. I won't be able to test as many missions in one sitting unfortunately.

But let's jump in;

Introduction Cutscene: Invasion

Starts off brilliantly; beautiful music and scenery with silky smooth camera angles. Very cinematic feel that makes me forget I'm playing a game and instead watching a movie. It's about as good as it can get. The scene with the camera panning over a lake with night turning to day was sublime. Every frame was a painting...which is exactly what a cutscene should be.

One little thing that made chuckle though was in the bar when we have the radio broadcast, the radio looks like it's on a stove. I could be wrong though  :D . It's not the first place I'd put a radio but hey, I'm not judgin'. There is a bit of camera stuttering when the camera zooms in on the radio (might want to transition to the next scene a little earlier in the zoom).

Later in the cutscene however we have what I think is a rather odd music track that I'm not convinced is entirely appropriate for what's happening on screen and what's been said in text. I don't know the name of the track, only that it accompanies a scene with CDF (or Resistance?) soldiers attacking Russian tanks with Mi24s flying in.

The reason why I found it odd was because it has a more 'uplifting' tone compared to the previous track, yet the tone of the scenes and of the text hasn't changed; the scenes don't depict positivity but rather the opposite. The previous track was perfect ( think it was from OFP originally) because it has a gloomy and foreboding tone; very appropriate for an invasion force. But when that track ends we fade very quickly into a much more positive sounding track. It made me think 'oh so things aren't so bad after all then'.

There are also moments around the same time where the music and the text aren't really working together in terms of tone. You've basically got this uplifting music combined with text saying that the Russians are 'smashing our hope to pieces'. It doesn't quite work for me.

An example of how this could be done would be to have scenes of the guerillas fighting and winning a battle against the Russians accompanied by the uplifting music and only hopeful text. You could then switch to a darker tone of music in order to convey the notion that no matter how hard the Resistance try, the Russians still have greater material might. You would have scenes showing the Russians gaining the upperhand and text driving home the point.

To be honest, I wonder whether you could try reducing the amount of text you have. You do have a lot of expository text in the cutscene. I like what you've written in terms of the wording, but I think you should try and let the scenes tell the story a little more. The more text you have, the more likely it is you'll have tonal clash with the music.

It's not easy I'll admit. You have a lot of background to set up and you have to get it out quickly. I would however try and reduce your reliance on the text for story telling. Less is more.

Yes, you did just read seven paragraphs of me criticising a single music track....THIS IS WHY IT TAKES ME YEARS TO MAKE MISSIONS  :D :D :D

Obviously this is not the first time I've seen this cutscene but the last time would have been 6 years ago, and so how I perceive things now is likely very different to how I perceived things then. When it comes to stuff like this I'm extremely nitpicky.

Is this a good cutscene? Of course, it's brilliant in so many ways and does exactly what it's supposed to do.
Can it be improved? YES. Even a small thing like changing a music track can make a huge difference.
But does it need improving? That's a question that I leave to you as the designer.

I'll move onto 'Death Came Upon Me' very soon and post my thoughts on it. I didn't think I'd spend so long on a cutscene  :D


Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands
Post by: Undeceived on 27 Jan 2024, 18:07:14
Welcome to the party, Gruntage. :D

A real lecture on music selection and mood creation. ;)

I choose this track back then to "introduce" the CDF which at first has courage and morale, hence a more positive and modern, west oriented track. Then the Russians destroy everything.

I don't care too much what track it is. I'll keep my ears open.

Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands
Post by: Gruntage on 27 Jan 2024, 21:31:43
So, let's continue the journey...

Death Came Upon Me

Good introduction cinematic; consistent with what I've seen so far. Nothing to change there. As far as the mission is concerned, I seem to remember it playing out a little differently to last time...for some reason I have this memory of starting in a forest. I dealt with the three guys by the house easily enough...though those guys couldn't hit a can off a fence which was of course a benefit to me  :D

But anyway, as far as functionality goes, there aren't any issues as far as I can see. I went to check out the UAZ and dealt with the officer who was there and grabbed the documents he had. I kinda expected another objective to pop up in relation to said documents but nothing happened. I don't know if something was supposed to happen but I think it would have been cool to have another objective to serve as a payoff for going to the UAZ. At the moment, from what I can see, there isn't any benefit to going to the UAZ. It seemed like it was road that didn't go anywhere, so to speak. Unless I'm missing something.

After the UAZ I went northwest to dodge the patrol I saw. After about 10 minutes I reached the task location the mission concluded without any issues.

It's certainly a simple mission but open to opportunities for adding content, like hidden objectives for example. Whether you feel like adding to it, is up to you. Maybe the only thing I would consider adding is some occasional quiet music just to serve as a mood multiplier. Maybe more gloomy weather with rain might also make the atmosphere more interesting.  But other than that, short and sweet without bugs.

As for the outro, it's every bit as great as I remember it. Love the choice of music; the Dark Knight's score is some of Hans Zimmer's best work and it works really well here. Also really like the Gladiator vibe as well; like when Maximus is trying to get to his family as quickly as possible. Love the idea of Tomas throwing his weapon away; like he doesn't give a shit about his own life anymore and all he cares about at that point is his family.

I mean it's an amazing cutscene, pure and simple. Don't change anything about it.

Anyway, I'll play Awakening next and report back...

Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands
Post by: Undeceived on 28 Jan 2024, 01:25:44
Quote
Unless I'm missing something.
It seems so. The reports on the officer's note show what Tomas has to expect when moving on. It describes how the Russians found and killed the men, tortured Petja and sent the intel to the department in the south, which is, where Tomas' home is. Of course someone who doesn't know the campaign won't be able to understand it at first.

Other than that the officer orders help that will arrive after some minutes. There's a NV goggles in the repair truck.
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands
Post by: Gruntage on 28 Jan 2024, 10:13:31
Alright so it was essentially a piece of foreshadowing, similar to a movie Easter egg, that's fine.

I think I was just expecting more from the UAZ section since the vehicle breaking down was a very noticeable event (the loud sound and Tomas' comment). It seemed like a very easy opportunity to add more substance. I guess my core issue with it is that the intel doesn't effect how the mission plays out particularly; Tomas still makes the shocking discovery at the barn regardless of whether he picks up the intel. The intel feels rather inconsequential if I'm being brutally honest.

It would have been very interesting if Tomas was able to connect the dots when reading the intel (regardless of whether the player did) and then have the rest of the mission play out entirely differently. Potentially you'd have Tomas sprinting south far sooner and bypass returning to his men. But that would require extensive redesign.

My first impression of the intel was that of 'ok' and waiting for something to happen. If I knew the campaign well, then I would already know about Petja's torture and his 'betrayal' and so the intel isn't presenting me with anything new and groundbreaking particularly; nothing that I didn't really know before. Especially if the events that the intel describes are revealed about 5 minutes later. Perhaps a better way of executing this easter egg would be to foreshadow an event that happen far later in the campaign. I suppose the danger then is the player having forgotten about the intel when said events play out. This is a tricky problem to solve and I probably would have opted for a different purpose for the intel.

Alternatively, when reading the intel, a task could have popped up for the player to inflict some damage in revenge for Dmitri; like sabotaging an enemy asset for instance. The intel could have given the location of said asset. It might make some sense narratively for the character to do some last minute damage before returning to his men. Tomas' grief for Dmitri could give way to rage, and so he would naturally jump at the opportunity to inflict damage. The UAZ breaking down seems like a very easy route to achieve this.

From a meta standpoint, the UAZ breaking down would essentially be presenting the player with a question/choice, 'Do you want to more stuff to do?'. The player can choose to play safe and bypass the UAZ altogether if they want, or they could take a more dangerous path to do some damage to the enemy. Player's choice and I like seeing this in missions. There's an element of role play there as well that I love to see.

Lastly, if nothing else, I probably would have put the NV goggles in the UAZ instead of the Repair Truck, so there's more of a payoff.

That's my take on it anyway. You don't have to act on any of this; it was just some thoughts I had...been a long time since I played this campaign so every mission feels new.

Anyway, onto...

Awakening

Not much needs to be said about this one other than that it works fine from what I can see. I travelled south and approached the meeting point from near the coast. In the past I think I tried going through the town and that was much harder. The patrolling vehicles were a nice touch and the music was well chosen. The only point of criticism I would add is I felt that the cinematic inside the church was a little too dark. I would consider adding some form of low light, just so we can see the characters' faces a little better. Maybe a lantern although use a different light from the default. I would say add a couple of candles to fit the location but I know you're limited to what objects are available.

Other than that, good. Will move onto 'Starting to Inflame Again' soon.

Just something else I remembered as well when playing. I noticed that you draw particular attention to a certain black Skoda during one of the cinematics. I think the car is of significance from when I last played. The drawing attention to the car is quite on-the-nose, so to speak. I wonder if there's a way of doing so it that's more subtle. Like, if I had two characters talking and this car was in the background, then I wonder if that's enough for the player to remember the car. This is a bit of nitpick and isn't really important.
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands
Post by: Undeceived on 28 Jan 2024, 18:36:47
Thanks!

I won't change much in these missions, just as a small info. I'm rather focused on the technical side of things here. But I love to read all the thoughts and ideas on the missions and their details, so keep it up. :D

In the later missions this is different. For example, there is this one mission that no one except me has played so far (it's completely new). It's a very complex and long mission and I definitely need feedback on the design and the mission flow. But in the missions that were published already, that is especially 1-13, I don't need that much of design feedback. Exceptions are Petrovka Strike (9) and The Picture (12), which were vastly changed after our discussions in the last version.

Thanks a lot for the time you guys are investing in this. :good:
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands
Post by: Clayman on 29 Jan 2024, 20:51:21
Quote
there is this one mission that no one except me has played so far
Okay, now I'm exited of what is to come...  :clap:

I kinda like the idea of an optional / hidden task for the first mission. On the other hand I guess after Tomas just lost his best friend and is surrounded by enemies, he probably wants to return to his men as quickly as possible. And as none of the equipment is carried over to the next mission, any 'rewards' collected in the first mission are pretty much useless anyways. But gameplay wise it would be cool, nonetheless. Just my 2 cents.^^


So, meanwhile I played both Martins List missions. Both worked pretty flawless.

Martins List 1:
I found something to loot.  :D While all the vehicles in Novy Sobor are empty as expected, there are a few smoke shells in the bus. Nothing really useful though.

When placing the dogtags in the church, there is no task complete hint or any other indication and the action to place the dogtags doesn't disappear. I wasn't sure if I had missed something at first, especially regarding the russian soldier  standing in the church, but in the briefing the task showed as completed so I thought it should be fine and I moved on.

The rest of the mission played out very well, except that I suck at preparing an ambush. Took me several tries to take out the trucks.
One small quality of life improvement regarding the teamswitch I would have appreciated: Whenever I switch to a different unit, AI Tomas tends to give orders to his squadmates and in the worst case, they could run off and come across some russians somewhere, provoking an unwanted firefight. It would be cool if the player unit would always be the group leader, just to keep control of the AI.


Martins List 2:
This was a very fun little mission. I remember the last time I played this mission, it was a real struggle to get away from the base at the end, with lots of infantry, several boats and a hind chasing me down. This time it was a much better experience. While there were still some boats around and eventually the hind showed up too, I didn't get shot to pieces time after time again. Once I reached the coast and ran to the forest, I didn't encounter any enemies at all. It was almost a bit too easy.^^

After the cutscene at the fishery harbor, Kamil immediately opened fire on the russians before I could actually spot them and eventually killed them all by himself. Quite handy that guy.  :D

After blowing up the generators, there again was no task hint. But at least Kamil said the job was done.

During the cutscene at the end of the mission there was a fullsceen nvg overlay. Not sure if that is intentional or because I had the nvg equipped when triggering the cutscene. While it makes it easier to see what's going on, it doesn't fit too well to the overall guerilla vibe of the mission and none of my men were actually wearing one during the scene.

One small mistake I noticed during the briefing in the Plan section:
"To infiltrate the harbour, we'll to steal a boat..."


So far I really had a lot of fun with these missions. They both seem very solid with no bugs or showstoppers.
Looking forward to play the next ones.
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands
Post by: Clayman on 30 Jan 2024, 17:29:16
...and the journey continues...
Again I'll keep this short for now, until I reach the new / updated missions.


Inner Abscess:
This starts off with a very atmospheric walk through foggy woods. It sets a really great mood for the mission to come and I particularly enjoyed it when Miroslav started coughing. A great little detail that adds really well to the feel.

When I came close to the river and the cutscene kicked in, in the first scenes some of my men didn't have any weapons.

After I had killed the Red Star guys and took the Manifest, Kamil refused to move. No matter what I ordered him, he just stood there not moving at all. I had to restart the mission. Second time everything worked fine.


Alexej Pribotow:
In the briefing it says "It's crazy how it goes go sometimes!" And the next sentence should probably say "sooner or later" rather than "earlier or later".

I kinda expected to get shot at the roadblock while searching the parked vehicles for any loot. But the russians didn't seem to care a lot.

While driving into the town, I liked Sergej telling me the way. At least for the first two turns, he went silent after that. I have to say, I still believe the mission would benefit from the player doing the different tasks themselfs. Going to the bar as Miroslav and placing the GPS as Sergej. But the cutscene was executed very well, nonetheless.

At the end when capturing Pribotow, the autosave was a bit too early. When reloading that save, I ended up in the shack again with the fade to black effect and being teleported outside again. You might put the autosave after the teleport, if you know what I mean.


Petrovka Strike:
As I had already covered this one before, I don't have that much to add, except of course that this mission turned out really great.  :good:

Only two smaller issues I noticed:
I took the truck from the ambush and drove to Grishino, jumped out and grabbed the sniper rifle. After I was finished gearing up, I couldn't find the pilot anywhere. As the marker for the task was exactly where I had parked the truck, I was afraid I had accidentally ran him over. Obviously I missed that I had already triggered the conversation. It took some time until I found him sitting in the helicopter waiting for Kamil and me.

You might want to wait for the player to have actually taken the rifle from the truck and he is on foot before you continue with the pilot conversation.

Also the 'Talk to Pilot' task didn't tick off at all.

I went for Tomek in this take, as it is closer to how the campaign originally played out and an additional group member could come in handy later on. Looking forward to see how the aftermath turns out on my next playtrough, when I go for Gvozdno.


Resurrection:
I guess I will never get tired of watching this cutscene. It's so perfectly orchestrated. The camera angles, the music accompanying the scenes. It's almost like watching a movie. Just pure epicness.

Just two questions that came to my mind while playing:
Who is that woman?
When Dimitri's goal was only to stop Tomas, wouldn't it been easier for him to just kill Tomas in the beginning?
Yes, it would result in a very short campaign... but still, Dimi's plan doesn't make too much sense to me when thinking about it.  :P


Edit: Almost forgot, there was an error message in Resurrection after the scene at Lucies grave:
Code: [Select]
Error in expression <ep 1;

if (hatnvg) then {tomas linkItem _nvGoggle; };

setAccTime 1;

TitleCut [>
Error position: <_nvGoggle; };

setAccTime 1;

TitleCut [>
Error Undefined variable in expression: _nvgoggle
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands
Post by: Undeceived on 01 Feb 2024, 09:23:33
Thanks! Notes taken. :good:

 
Quote
Who is that woman?
Ehm, what woman? :D The one at Miroslav's broken car? That's just a random woman the Red Star used to lure Tomas into the trap.

Quote
When Dimitri's goal was only to stop Tomas, wouldn't it been easier for him to just kill Tomas in the beginning?
Yes, it would result in a very short campaign... but still, Dimi's plan doesn't make too much sense to me when thinking about it.  :P
Hm, never thought about that. :D I guess Dimitri doesn't want to kill him necessarily. He only hopes that Tomas stops after so many losses and let's it rest. Maybe he even wanted to turn him... Do you think that this needs further clarification at any part of the campaign?
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands
Post by: Clayman on 01 Feb 2024, 17:40:57
Yes, that woman. I thought the Red Star guys used Miroslav to lure Tomas into the trap. At least I didn't notice her before the cutscene triggered.

Regarding Dimitri, I don't know. As I have played the campaign several times and this was the first time I thought about that, I guess it should be fine. It was just an idea that crossed my mind and I felt like sharing it.^^
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands
Post by: Undeceived on 01 Feb 2024, 18:35:48
When you approached Miroslav's car, didn't you hear the woman, crying out in pain?
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands
Post by: Clayman on 01 Feb 2024, 18:48:01
No, I didn't hear anything suspicious. I approached the car from the forest (to the right of the car), exactly where the three(?) Red Star guys later showed up. That's probably why it felt so disconnected. I'll keep my ears open the next time I play the mission.
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands
Post by: Clayman on 03 Feb 2024, 21:30:16
So finally I found some time to continue playing...


The Picture
When you said you expanded the mission, I expected some smaller tweaks here and there, more activity at the castle or something. But damn, that was a pleasant surprise. Very nice changes overall.  :good:
I particularly liked that you went with the KSK guys this time. Not only do they look badass, we have also met them before (and we have seen how badass they are).

One minor thing that felt a little bit weird was when Tomas returned to Devils Castle alone at the end, he suddenly used the callsign Lynx, while previously he was always referred to by NATO as Cerny, Chernarussian or Resistance. It felt a bit strange that it was changed during the mission kinda out of nowhere. However, the callsign being used by Tomas' group afterwards is consistent. It's just something I noticed. (or maybe I missed something somewhere.)

Although from a strategic standpoint it would have been better to bring the camera to a safe spot, I decided to go with the KSK to help the Czechs, because of more action and stuff. But probably I guess it doesn't make that much of a difference, as eventually I end up doing Martins task anyways.

Overall those where some very welcome changes that made the mission a lot more enjoyable. (And a nice way to get rid of that extraction helicopter.^^) Great work.


The Mole
Now this was a tricky one. I remember the last time I played this, I had severe problems taking out the officers and eventually the mission won and I had to give up. I do indeed like the idea of this mission, using the teamswitch as an design element. It's a whole different challenge, and a really welcome one. But at the same time it's really a test for my patience.^^
While I did manage to beat the mission this time, I still had some problems here and there.

After taking out the first officer, the three guys on the street on the other side of the building were in danger mode constantly observing the area where the officer has been. They stayed this way for the rest of the mission, however there was no alarm raised so I could continue. The second officer was probably the easiest one, but the third one I ended up taking out with the DMR from afar. Not very clean and stealthy, I wouldn't even have thought about that if you hadn't mentioned that in a future version you want to prevent this option, but it worked for now and I could finally move on. Probably have to come up with another tactic the next time I play this.^^

Probably it's me that I'm not patient enough to crawl all over the place through the complete village. But still I feel that the russians spot me a bit too easy. They also seem to hear my "silent" knockout from quite a distance. Also when they notice something suspicious, to a degree where they go into combat mode, I guess the alarm should be raised or at least they should investigate what's going on, instead of just staring at a house forever.  :P Overall I have the feeling that I have to follow a very specific path to successfully take out all three officers.

A whole different problem is that when distracting a soldier as the Mole, the soldier sometimes doesn't turn in my direction or turns back right away. Several times I had to walk away and talk to him again, until he finally kept looking in my direction. I guess this is more a problem with the Arma AI in general, but it is a bit annoying when it happens every second time you want to distract someone.

The rest of the mission worked flawless and I especially enjoyed the escaping the island part. The airport area however was rather underwhelming. You know, when you put a large, red marker on the map saying "keep out", I just have to go there. But all the vehicles where locked and nothing else of interest was to be found.

In the briefing, the marker link "administration building" doesn't seem to work correctly.
And a small quality of life improvement would be, when the "talk" and "knock out" actions only appeared when there actually is a unit in reach. Btw, I love the reaction of the Mole when Tomas tries the action on him.  :D


Three Valleys & Preparation
Alright, it's been quite a while since I last played the following missions during A2 times. Therefore I can only vaguely remember these. I can't say if there has always been so much substance to the preparation missions, with the expanding camp and the talk options for several members of my team. I thoroughly enjoyed the overall atmosphere and the music in the background was very well chosen. The group management is a cool feature, although with interface size set to small, the character descriptions where a bit hard to read. Also I feel a little bit more color would suit the menu quite well.

There were a few new members in the camp. While Jegor and his men where mentioned somewhere in a briefing, I didn't feel any connection to them. As you have scraped their story arch from Petrovka Strike, where I think they where originally introduced, I think it would be cool to see them in a cutscene somewhere beforehand. Nothing fancy, just a small shot of the refugees coming from Grishino and joining your group. For now it somehow felt a bit disconnected.

When talking to Martin, he mentioned the Spetsnaz which I had supposedly killed in Gvozdno. However, as I went for Grishino to rescue Tomek and therefore arrived to late in Gvozdno, I actually never killed anyone there. I did like how bitter Tomek was about the loss of Miroslav. Made me feel even more for my men.


The mission itself was pretty much straightforward. My team had a good starting position for the attack on the farm and I could clear the area without any casualties. Teams Wolf and Eagle however both were killed during the attack. At the beginning, the radio message "Copy Wolf. Wait for my signal." appeared twice.

I didn't expect the mission to be that easy and of course it didn't take long for the counter attack. The incoming artillery actually had me scared for a moment while trying to get my men away from the farm into the forest. As I expected enemy presence in Tulga I approached the village from the east. But no sign of the Red Star guys, only some angry civilians. The reveal that Sergej's mother had been killed was a bit unemotional. Somehow I expected a bit more drama. The US soldiers showing up at the end was almost hilarious and left a lighthearted feel to the mission. Oh, and there was a dead...  transgender person(?) lying in front of one destroyed building. Looked a bit weird.

So far I really enjoyed this mission. It's slowly shaping up to the grand finale. Hopefully I can find some time the next days to continue playing. I'm really exited to see what you came up for the final showdown.
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands
Post by: Undeceived on 04 Feb 2024, 02:45:19
Great, you're now in the phase of the campaign that wasn't released in the last version. Keep coming the good feedback! :good:

These preparation missions are completely new. But there won't be so many conversations in the next ones.

Oh yeah, Jegor and his brother Lukas... Try to forget their story from the last version. They are rather supposed to come across as some mean assholes, making fun of some others, etc. :D So maybe the player wants to leave them behind in the camp. The "problem" is that Jegor is one of the most experienced fighters of the whole team. He might be the best after Kamil and maybe Ivan from team WOLF (who will only join later, if he survives the mission 14). Lukas is somewhat experienced too and he even is a medic. So the player has to choose if he wants these assholes in the team or not. If he/she leaves them behind, they feel so insulted that they leave the camp and are gone. :D

Thanks for your feedback on The Picture. I was looking forward to that. These were some major changes.
 
Btw., I'll try to adress all issues you are reporting. Ok, almost all. :) Keep them coming, even if I don't comment all of them, I'm taking note of them all.
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands
Post by: Clayman on 04 Feb 2024, 18:02:30
Quote
If he/she leaves them behind, they feel so insulted that they leave the camp and are gone.
Really? Haha, that's awesome. I guess I will have to try that. But as you said, Jegor is very experienced and Lukas being a medic is an important team member as well. I wasn't aware that this Jegor is a different one than the Jegor I met five years ago.  :D While they were a bit mean towards Johan(?), they didn't come across as assholes per se. I found the conversation to be rather entertaining.^^

So I read it there are chances for team Wolf to survive? Will have to try that as well. Having more men in my team might be helpful.


Continuing with Escalation (& Preparation).
I really like these preparation missions. Although rather small filler missions, they add a lot to the overall story. Especially the expanding camp looks great. While I still don't trust Petja any further than I can throw a piano, he does seem to do a good job as quartermaster.

When Martin(?) mentioned that Sergej would inform Ivan's wife, I was like "who is Ivan?". I then found out about him only in the group managers KIA list. It felt a bit odd to have a whole list of guys with their background stories just to realize they were all killed during the last mission. But as it seems they could as well survive and be available as new team members. Will definitely check that out.

Also I like how the subplot with the Spetsnaz is starting to unfold. Couldn't remember this one at all.
I have to admit, it would be cool to have at least some talk options with my team mates during these missions. It doesn't have to be anything too fancy. But it's an great opportunity to add more depth to the men and make the player care even more for them.


The mission itself is a rather long one. Like the previous one, I could only remember fragments from my A2 playthrough, so it felt mostly fresh and new.
The first thing I noticed was that Tomas' equipment from the preparation mission didn't carry over. I still had the stuff that I had at the end of Three Valleys. I had given him a few satchels which I expected to need to destroy the artillery guns and now they were missing. However I decided to continue nonetheless, hoping to find replacement somewhere along the way or, if not, use some RPGs to do the job. (There was everything I needed in the camp at the end, so no problem here. But it would of course be cool to have the correct equipment after having a preparation mission just for that.)

There occasionally was some weird AI behaviour throughout the mission, like my #7 (Lukas, the medic) having a move order displayed although I didn't order him to do anything. Or sometimes when giving orders, the game simply didn't register them and nothing happened. Not a big issue and I'm unsure if that's some new Arma feature. It just felt a bit strange.

There also was quite a bit of micromanaging of my group involved, which can become a bit of a hassle when there are more than 10 guys in your group.
After I had helped the Americans in Gorka, it wasn't that easy to get the survivors out of the village and to their pickup point without them running into the enemy, while at the same time trying to fend off the counter attack with my resistance guys. At the end, only two of the Americans reached their transport alive.

During the conversation there were some error messages:
Code: [Select]
Error in expression <elfen11";} else {
if (alive b2_1) then {b1_2 groupradio "STR_helfen11";} else {
>
Error position: <b1_2 groupradio "STR_helfen11";} else {
>
Error Undefined variable in expression: b1_2
File UND_BlackLands\Campaigns\missions\b_15escalation.chernarus\scripts\abschied.sqf..., line 10



Error in expression <fen12_2";} else {
if (alive b2_1) then {b1_2 groupradio "STR_helfen12_2";} else
>
Error position: <b1_2 groupradio "STR_helfen12_2";} else
>
Error Undefined variable in expression: b1_2
File UND_BlackLands\Campaigns\missions\b_15escalation.chernarus\scripts\abschied.sqf..., line 24



Error in expression <elfen14";} else {
if (alive b2_1) then {b1_2 groupradio "STR_helfen14";} else {
>
Error position: <b1_2 groupradio "STR_helfen14";} else {
>
Error Undefined variable in expression: b1_2
File UND_BlackLands\Campaigns\missions\b_15escalation.chernarus\scripts\abschied.sqf..., line 36



Error in expression <elfen15";} else {
if (alive b2_1) then {b1_2 groupradio "STR_helfen15";} else {
>
Error position: <b1_2 groupradio "STR_helfen15";} else {
>
Error Undefined variable in expression: b1_2
File UND_BlackLands\Campaigns\missions\b_15escalation.chernarus\scripts\abschied.sqf..., line 44

I'm not sure if I missed something during the conversation, but the two Americans stayed in my team while the truck stood there waiting. I was unsure what to do, so I boarded the truck with my men and it drove off to the north. As that was the wrong direction, I had to reload my last savegame and then headed off to Polana with the two Americans following me. Not sure how long they followed me, after talking to the woman they were gone however. Talking of the woman, I can shoot her through the window and when entering the house afterwards, Tomas still tries to interrogate her.^^

When at the barn and the Red Star guys came towards our position, I wasn't able to spot them. But apparently I had positioned my men quite well and they easily took care of the attackers.
I particularly liked Tomek's behaviour towards the woman and especially his reaction when Tomas denied him to kill her. That's a great example of what I meant with adding more depth to the characters. I felt so much for Tomek, his pain and anger. I could really understand his behaviour and I felt the need to help him somehow.

The reinforcements were very welcome, even though I hadn't lost any of my men so far. Unfortunately the parked UAZ was too small to fit my whole team, so I had to split my team up and take the other UAZ, which the Red Star guys obviously didn't need anymore. Having an AI driver to follow you of course brings the usual pathfinding issues, like hitting trees, hitting rocks, hitting buildings, you name it. Took me some time to reach Guglovo. At least there I found a truck I could use big enough to fit my whole team, which made traveling a lot easier.

It was really cool to meet Piotr again, although it's been quite a while.
But what happened to his awesome car? Showing up in that odd Lada was kinda meh.  :P

The rest of the mission went flawless and I managed to complete it without any casualties. It's cool to have some opportunities to reequip my men and grab some much needed weapons and ammo. While I found some AA launchers at the camp, I wasn't able to take out the helicopter flying circles over my head. I did however damage it so it stopped shooting at my men.

The marker link in the briefing "NATO Base" didn't seem to work correctly. And in the end cutscene, again I'm not sure if I missed something, but the officer talked to me like I hadn't been to Gorka in the beginning to help the Americans. Not sure if that was because the task didn't seem to complete (the two survivors staying in my group). I do think the task showed as complete in the briefing though.


Overall it was another great mission which I thoroughly enjoyed despite some smaller issues. Great work once again.  :good:
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands
Post by: Undeceived on 04 Feb 2024, 19:43:39
Thanks!

It's hard not to comment your feedback on the sub plots. :D Don't want to spoil anything.

Yes, group WOLF can survive (as a whole or partly), but the player can only indirectly influence this, by killing as many RS as possible.
Hm, you're right, Ivan should not be mentioned by Sergej, as the player doesn't know him. I'll take that out.

The Americans staying in the group in Escalation is really a bug. No idea why it didn't show up in my test run. They should board the truck and drive away. I'm glad they didn't break the mission.

I have noticed the unwanted move commands too, not only in this mission. I hope this is an Arma problem, but I don't know for sure because it has been a long time since I have played vanilla Arma.
One Arma bug I noticed for sure is the AI getting stuck when the player gives him a move order while he's bandaging himself.
https://feedback.bistudio.com/T177333

Quote
But what happened to his awesome car? Showing up in that odd Lada was kinda meh.  :P
CUP didn't port it. That was 5 years ago though. I'll check it but again but I think it's still not there, unfortunately.

Quote
the officer talked to me like I hadn't been to Gorka in the beginning to help the Americans. Not sure if that was because the task didn't seem to complete (the two survivors staying in my group). I do think the task showed as complete in the briefing though.
Hmm, that's the question now... When the player has helped the Gorka unit, then the squad leader talks about that in the outro. When the player did not help, them the squad leader in the outro isn't the Gorka one (as he's dead) but the squad leader that comes to Tulga in Three Valleys.

It sounds like the helpedGorkaUnit variable was not properly transferred to the outro. :weeping: Dammit... I think that the bug in the script, you experienced, isn't the reason.

One question: when you approached Visoky Kamen (the artillery), did BRAVO squad notify you that they arrived well and they offered shelter in the NATO FOB?
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands
Post by: Clayman on 05 Feb 2024, 17:09:17
Quote
One question: when you approached Visoky Kamen (the artillery), did BRAVO squad notify you that they arrived well and they offered shelter in the NATO FOB?

Hmm I'm not 100% sure about that. The FOB was mentioned at some point while approaching the artillery site, but I can't say if it was Bravo that reported it or someone of my team was talking about it.
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands
Post by: Undeceived on 05 Feb 2024, 18:04:17
I think you would remember it. Tomas asks the Americans (BRAVO team) for help with the artillery (after having saved their asses in Gorka), but they aren't allowed to, which makes everyone angry and Kamil and Tomek even start cursing.

Ok, thanks!
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands
Post by: Clayman on 05 Feb 2024, 19:01:34
Ah, now that you mention it, I do think there was a conversation like that.
(It's easy to miss something while in the heat of combat, or, as in this case, while approaching an enemy position and spotting for hostiles.  :whistle: )
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands
Post by: Undeceived on 05 Feb 2024, 19:43:08
Ok. :good:
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands
Post by: Clayman on 10 Feb 2024, 23:02:28
Alright, finally I found some time to continue playing. Not as much as I had wanted to, to really test these huge missions in depth. But my first impression so far was very good.


The Storm I & Preparation
The Preparation Mission started off with a very nice cutscene, setting the mood for the final battle that was about to come. Great atmosphere once again.

In the briefing / tasks section 'Get in position for the final attack' the marker link "move to our position" doesn't seem to point to any marker. During the actual mission(s) everything did work correctly, however.

After selecting my group members to equip them, in the team switch menu some of them didn't have their names displayed, but the group designation instead. So at times I had to guess who I was gearing up. Not a big issue, but it would be better to know who is who.


The mission itself seems to be pretty solid. I didn't notice any bugs at all. Of course such large scale battles always are a bit chaotic and it's quite likely that I missed something here and there in the heat of the battle. The overall atmosphere and feel of being part of an large assault was dominant and very well choreographed.

After Martin had informed me about the enemy reinforcements, I quickly went to Olsha and easily took out all enemies in the area. Then I moved to the AT position and cleared that area as well, including the first AA position. I used the static AT guns to take out some of the armor at the airport, trying to make it a bit easier for the Americans the take the airfield, while my men attacked the reinforcements coming from the north. But instead of being thankful, Papa Bear only could annoy me about the other AA positions which I should eventually take out. On my way I was thinking that a forest might not be the best location for an AA gun, with all those trees blocking the view on any helicopters attacking the airfield. However, I cleared both remaining AA positions and headed to the airfield. On arrival there weren't any enemies left, but the objective didn't seem to tick off.

The cutscene with angry Dimitri was very well made. But I was unsure who those guys were that he killed. Did I miss something?

Somewhere along the way I came across a damaged T55, which I tried to repair with the toolkit from my truck. But it seems Tomas is no good mechanic and Matai was nowhere to be found. So I took one of the Mi8s from the airport and headed towards the main base. I was thinking about informing Petja to prepare a helipad for our camp, but as expected, my chopper was gone at the start of the next mission.^^


The Storm II
This was again a very solid mission with no bugs to be spotted.
I remember the last time I played this, I could let the Americans do most of the work to conquer the camp, and due to how it was build, it was quite easy to take care of the incoming Spetsnaz. This time it was quite a bit more challenging. Overall the layout of the base felt a lot better. It was a great, intense fight to seize the compound and eliminate all enemies inside.

The scene with the Spetsnaz closing in was kinda intimidating and I had to hurry to get my men patched up, reequiped and in position to fend them off. However, after the very first wave of attackers, it seemed like the remaining Spetsnaz all attacked one by one, or in smaller groups of two or three men. While it was kinda challenging because they approached from different directions, once spotted it was easy to take them out. Making them attack all at once from different sides would make it quite a bit harder.

The ending cutscene wrapped the story up very well and I particularly liked Tomas' inner monologue ending with Chernarus was free. But...


Not over yet
Wow, that was unexpected. Another very well made cutscene adding a great twist and making me even more exited of what is still to come.  :good:


I have to admit that I'm not the biggest fan of such large scale battles. But these where two very well made missions and a very welcome change to all the guerilla style missions we had so far. Great atmosphere, intense firefights and the feeling of being part of something bigger. I will definitely play both again to try some different tactics and see what I might have missed (or use to my advantage^^).

But first I'm off to see what Sergej is up to. Finally. Yep, I'm hyped...  :D
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands
Post by: Undeceived on 10 Feb 2024, 23:59:33
Quote
Somewhere along the way I came across a damaged T55, which I tried to repair with the toolkit from my truck. But it seems Tomas is no good mechanic and Matai was nowhere to be found. So I took one of the Mi8s from the airport and headed towards the main base. I was thinking about informing Petja to prepare a helipad for our camp, but as expected, my chopper was gone at the start of the next mission.^^

:D Haha, you're a specialist in finding these things. :D Thanks!

Quote
The cutscene with angry Dimitri was very well made. But I was unsure who those guys were that he killed. Did I miss something?
This probably is the officer responsible for the airfield defence who has f***** up. But you're right, maybe I should add a sentence or two to make this clear.
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands
Post by: Gruntage on 11 Feb 2024, 14:04:18
Finally had some time to play some more. IRL stuff has gotten in the way recently but I have a few hours to test some more.

Starting to Inflame Again I

This mission is actually the first time I've had to use the 'endmission' command because, my God, this was frustrating. The assassination of the officer feels far too difficult and I think I must have done around 30 attempts to a) kill the officer and b) get a distance of at least 25 metres away without getting sprayed by an APC and/or enemy troops. At that point, for me at least, the fun and challenge element ebbs away fast and the suspension of disbelief shatters. I'm quite patient with missions like this but this one it was too much.

I don't know whether the position of the officer is randomised within the bar, but for me at least, the officer was in the worst possible position and it took me a while to figure out where he was. I had to physically walk into the bar itself surrounded by enemies before I could even see him. Because of how insane the Arma 3 AI are, I would get shot the instant I fire a round off. Even if I managed to run out of the back, the enemy APCs are already on to me. It feels very unrealistic because these guys are are at ease yet they're able to counter a threat within one second.

On a few attempts I tried throwing a grenade into the room for the officer to hopefully die in the blast. A couple of times this worked, only to end up killing the barman in the process and getting a mission failed. On the rare occasions where I was able to kill the officer with the grenade, I would die before I could get a stone's throw away from the building despite having a headstart. The barman dying also caused functional issues as I when I tried to reload the latest save I would get a couple of 'fade-in's and be playing a completely different character somewhere else on the map. I had to reload again to an earlier save for the mission to get back on track.

So that's the gameplay side of things.

I have a few issues with the objective itself. Right now it feels disproportionately difficult and it's enough to pull me out of the story. I think asking the player to walk into a crowded bar to assassinate a target in full view of the bar occupants and then expecting said player to escape alive is too much in my opinion. I think it's made worse by the game's mechanics, such as the AI response time and accuracy. I think a mission like this would work so much better if stealth could be maintained throughout.

I think there are ways that this could be greatly improved to better the odds and make the mission less punishing. I'll list the points here for clarity.

- Officer Position

This is an easy fix; simply move the officer to a place where he can be shot from the back entrance of the bar.

- Involve the Barman in the plan

If moving the officer isn't working, then I'd suggest having the barman be in on the plan somehow. Maybe he will walk out of the bar through the back as a signal to the player to move in, thus removing himself from danger. Not only would this work narratively, but it would also make it easier for the player to manoeuvre into the bar to position himself to kill the officer. A plan like this requires multiple people to be in on it, in my opinion. It would be more realistic.

- Involve the prostitute or another prostitute

Another possibility is for the officer to go upstairs with a prostitute and for the player to stealthily move up there to deal the killing shot. This way stealth could be maintained and this would make a lot of sense. The challenge would then come from the player having to sneak to the boat without getting caught. Maybe the prostitute would then be a character who joins the resistance and would make regular appearances. I'm half joking with that but it's an idea.

Right now I don't think it makes sense for the player to be stealthy only to be forced to throw that advantage away at worst time and place. The key part is being forced since the player doesn't have a choice here. An analogy is James Gastovski sneaking into a base, dropping his satchel charges to destroy a tank and then for some reason detonating them whilst still in the base and having to fight his way out. The logical thing would be to detonate the charges when clear of the base and danger.

I don't think Tomas would be ok with having to execute this mission in the way that it is currently; it's too dangerous and risky, even with the uniform. Getting in is ok, getting out is the problem because the uniform at that point doesn't matter. So there's in-universe issues as well as meta ones.

So to summarise, as it stands, this is a mission that I just don't enjoy and I think unless changes are made, it's probably going to be one I skip on future playthroughs. Looking back at what I said on previous tests, it looks like I had difficulty with it then as well as now. I don't think the mission even requires substantial changes in order to better it so I'm not calling for a redesign necessarily.

I've been negative so far so let's change things up and list the positives:

- Very atmospheric and dark; helped by the music and the sound effects. The bar ambient sound is very good and it makes the bar feel alive and real.
- Great introductory cinematic (could do with a bit of extra lighting but that's a nitpick)
- Good attention to detail in the briefing; told me what I needed to know and how to execute the mission.
- Generally good positions of patrols throughout the town
- Realistic AI animations; it was enough to make me believe that these characters are real people.
- I appreciate the thought and attention that has clearly gone into the mission, I wanna be clear about that. It's just unfortunate that I have a real problem with the difficulty.

There's a great mission in here, and I don't think it would take much time to bring it out. A mission can be so easily killed by its difficulty...it's why balancing is extremely hard and not many people understand or appreciate it. There are missions out there that are sold on them being very hard to complete. MacGuba made one. Those missions I've found are love or hate. I'm digressing so I'll finish here.

That took longer that I expected so I'll come back to this one later.

Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands
Post by: Clayman on 11 Feb 2024, 15:30:25
Quote
It's hard not to comment your feedback on the sub plots. :D Don't want to spoil anything.
Ok, now I think I know what you meant by this. Thanks for not spoiling me.  :D

For some reason I had Blind Guardians' And the Story ends playing in my head all day long. Felt quite fitting.
So...

Where is Sergej
Holy Moly, what a mission. Undeceived, you're doing your magic again!  :clap:
You had mentioned somewhere that you greatly expanded this one and turned it into a massive hunt. But damn, this exceeded all my expectations, by far. I'm totally in awe of what you have created here. Although I failed at finding Sergej, I had a real blast at playing this. Just Wow!

As I suppose there are different ways to complete this, I'll write down all the steps I took and see what's what.
The first difficulty was to select the right equipment for the task ahead. I went with the G36 from the Picture mission and took an extra SVD in my backpack just in case. Actually I wanted to put some additional gear in the car, but as a approached the car, the cutscene kicked in and I found myself all the way in the east. Not a big problem, as I found more than enough equipment during the mission. That alone was very satisfying.

Talked to the guy sitting on the road, who turned out not to be Jacek, and with the other guys down the road, who pointed me towards Solnichniy. Didn't see much activity in the town but somehow the road leading to the quarry caught my attention, so I went there to investigate. Meet the three guys and talked to them. When going further into the quarry, I heard them mentioning Orlovets and their pal at the train station.

Went there but the guy was too drunk to be of any help. I heard the gun shots and went to investigate. Found the dead guy in the shed and the computer. How awesome was that PC animation? Reminded me a lot of the first mission from Underdogs, but much better. I couldn't figure out the password however, and no clues to help me were to be found. So I continued to the old factory.

Took out the Red Star guys hiding in the factory building. The guy at the top of the staircase was a bit tricky, as he could take me out before I could target him. Took me several tries. Eventually found the officers' note, which pointed me back to the quarry.

When entering the quarry for the second time, Tomas mentioned the guys from earlier left their drunk friend just lying there, however there was no one to be found. The dead goats where really disgusting. Poor Tomas. I found the clue and went for the house in the south. But only found the dead guy and no further clues around. Seemed to be a dead end, as Tomas mentioned. While driving back north I heard distant gunfire, but I couldn't determine from where exactly it came.

Drove through the forest straight to Orlovets. Meet the old man repairing his car, who pointed me towards Jaceks friends at the barn. Talked to them and finally got some useful information.
Going back to that construction site however had a very uncomfortable feeling to it. Somehow I expected something bad to happen and I spent quite some time observing the area before I entered the compound.

Of course it happened what had to happen and I was knocked down from behind. Poor Tomas... again. However, the guy turned out to be quite helpful, as he eventually took me to meet Jacek. I really like that the guy took my NVG and GPS, and later Tomas demanded to get his stuff back. Great little detail.
After Jacek had told me about his family and his cousin the Secretary, I went back to Orlovets to talk to him.

The scene I found inside the building was almost hilarious. It felt a bit odd to carry some equipment inside (quite a lot equipment, that is), just to prove that I'm trustworthy, while Jaceks' family (and therefore the Secretarys' family as well) was in danger. As I couldn't threaten him, even by killing his buddys, I had to do as I was told and carry all the stuff inside. The good thing was, that afterwards I could freely take everything I needed from the crate without anyone caring.

While talking to the Secretary again, he was constantly turning and aiming at something outside. It felt a bit unfriendly.^^ I noticed that the conversation didn't show up in the log. I later would have liked to re-read it for any information I might have missed.

After the Secretary told me about Vojtech, I traveled north and searched the marked area. Finally I found Vojtech in a barn and he told me about his brother, their company and eventually told me the password for the computer. So back to Solnichniy. I logged into the computer and found the file, pointing me to the hidden camp. When the computer had the bsod, an error message appeared:
Code: [Select]
Error in expression < "pictures\bsod.jpg"];
pc say3d "bsod"; sleep 20; saveGame; }
>
Error position: <sleep 20; saveGame; }
>
Error Suspending not allowed in this context

Finding the entrance to the camp was a but tricky and the boobytraps where really nasty. Clearing the camp with NVGs equipped and the gun laser felt really SpecOp-y, I thoroughly enjoyed that part. It took some time to find the intel, with all the clutter lying around. But there was also a lot of really useful gear to be found. However, the intel didn't seem to provide any further hints as of where to go next, except that it mentioned a Stash B-6, but I couldn't figure out what was up with that.

While traveling back north to talk with Vojtech again, I came across the resistance fighters in Nizhnoye, who were preparing to fend off some Red Star guys coming from the north. I decided to help them and together we quickly took out the attackers. Then I talked to the leader, and Tomas asked him if he knew where to find Jacek. That felt a bit odd, as I had already found him. As he didn't have any other useful information, I continued to talk to Vojtech. But he didn't have any new information for me as well. So I went back to Orlovets to talk with the Secretary again, be he too didn't have anything to say.

At this point I was kinda lost as of what to do next. As it was already late and I was tired, I decided to call it a day and go to bed.....


Day 2:
With new motivation and still no idea where to go, I decided to go to Berezino, as I hadn't been there before, to check out what I would find there. I meet the three guys in the town center. When talking to them, Tomas again asked where to find Jacek. Slowly I had the feeling that I had somehow screwed up the mission and something wasn't working as it should.

The rest of the town was dead empty and so I went to check all locations I've previously been to, to see if I had missed something. Unfortunately I couldn't find anything helpful at all, no one wanted to talk to me anymore. No new clues, no hints, nothing. After driving all over the place for more than an hour, I eventually gave up and returned to Martin...


So far this has been an more than overwhelming mission and I believe I have so far only scratched the surface. I don't know what to say, you really did an outstanding job with this. I'm truly impressed.  :good:

Some things I noticed while playing:
Over time the briefing was quite cluttered with all the additional entries. There where two 'Notes' sections containing the different pieces of intel. On that note, something I had thought about in earlier missions, too, the 'Revive Teammates' and 'Adjust Brightness' could be combined into one 'Info' menu. And maybe those should only be in the briefing when relevant for the mission. I don't need the info on how to revive my teammates, when I'm alone on the mission.

Some of the conversations didn't show up in the log, like the one with the Secretary and some others, too, I think. Overall there where some discrepancies between what some of the characters actually said, and what was written in the log. Like Jacek talking about his wife and daughter, while in the notes it said his wife and son. There were some others as well, which I can't remember right now. (There was a lot of text in this mission.) Not a big issue though, just felt a bit off.

What I did like was the dynamics of the mission. Like when re-visiting an area, new people showed up, or others I had talked to before where gone. That made the world actually feel alive. Very well done.
Also the fast travel was a really helpful feature.
I also liked the background music playing from time to time. It added a lot to the atmosphere, although if it was me, it could have happened more often.

As I said, I'm sure I have missed quite a lot in this mission, and I didn't manage to find Sergej. I will definitely give this one another go soon. Really an outstanding mission.


Dimitri Sladek
Alright, as this one is completely new, I had absolutely no idea what to expect.
Tomas' nightmare was intimidating, another well made cutscene and I had a really bad feeling of what was to come. When going outside, I didn't notice the letter at the door. I searched the surroundings of the house, went down the road and into the village. But no sign of life anywhere. I went back to the house, checked the back yard again and was just about to go back inside, to see if I could just go back to bed, when I finally noticed the letter.

As I expected to meet Dimitri at the barn for the final standoff, I felt quite uncomfortable going there completely unarmed. It felt odd that the leader of the resistance movement didn't have a single gun in his house, especially with his arch enemy still around. At least you could place a pistol somewhere on a table to take along.

Finding Sergej in the barn was not that much of an surprise, but what followed caught me completely off guard. Damn, I'm running out of superlatives to describe my thoughts about that scene. I'm really a fan of stories with tragic endings, and this one was one hell of a blast to watch. I literally sat there with a huge grin on my face starring at my screen. That scene in the church, with Pribotow disappearing - just Wow! And Petja, I knew I shouldn't trust him.^^
I remember when I stared playing Black Lands for the very first time, this was pretty much the kind of ending I had expected. It was pure epicness. Heck, if it were me, I would scrap the other ending and go with this one as the final conclusion of the story. It's just perfect. And, it leaves room for a continuation of the story. I'm so looking forward to playing Black Lands 2 in like 15 years or something.  :D
Seriously, I don't know what to say. Thank you so much for all the work you must have put into this. Really impressive.  :good:


Outro
As I'm still totally in awe, I don't know what to add anymore. The outro is beautiful to watch and it concludes the story very well. I particularly liked the scenes of my friends which I had met and lost during my journey. And the final scene with Tomas sitting at the lake. Just wonderful. You're the master of melodrama - and I love it.  :D

There is nothing to criticize about the outro. But when I'm totally honest here, after the journey I've been through, and I guess it's just that you raised the standards for immersion by far, the ending felt a bit too short. What I mean by this is, that I'd like to see more of the aftermath regarding the other men who joined me along the way, like Kamil and especially Tomek, as he was still alive in my playthrough. It would have been cool to see how his life would continue after the war was over. Just some food for thought, if you ever get bored.^^

Overall this campaign was one hell of a ride and I know why I fell in love with this back then. Probably the best campaign I ever played. You really can be proud of what you have created here. Thank you so much for this and for bringing it to Arma 3, and even better than the original one.  :clap: :good: :)
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands
Post by: Undeceived on 11 Feb 2024, 17:00:33
@Clayman

Thanks a lot, man! Glad you liked the mission (even though you played only half of it), I was looking forward to read the feedback. Yeah, this was quite a ride creating this mission. :D I don't know if you remember it from Arma 2 times. You would click on points of interest (like the quarry) on the map and would be setpossed there... And that was it, if you clicked on the right spot (which I won't spoil now), then the mission would end. This was a matter of seconds to finish it, but interestingly this kind of search was the starting point and inspiration for the mission like it is now. But it turned out to be the most complex mission of the campaign, due to its open gameplay. Therefore it's great to have some feedback, e.g. about Tomas asking around about Jacek even though he was already found. :clap:

Ok, so, you missed crucial intel in the RS hideout. But this is good because I'll add an extra hint for the player (or Tomas saying something) when leaving the hideout without having found the intel. It's in the back room where the ammo crate is, on the desk. Or at least it SHOULD be there! At mission start this one and other stuff in the hideout are hidden and maybe the hideObject false didn't work out?... Not sure now, to be honest.

But anyway - on the other hand this way you tested the other variant to finish the mission - giving up and returning to the camp, which is important as well. Thanks!

I'll check out if the intel is hidden false when the player gets there and will report back to you.

I have a question for you, regarding the RS hideout though. I have randomized certain things in this mission so that it's not too easy or predictable for the player when replaying it. The RS hideout however is not randomized. That means that theoretically the veteran player could head there right at mission start, skipping half of the mission. This is why I hid all relevant items and the RS guys too, until the player talks to the traitor Vojtech or so. Would you think this approach is better, or should I rather lock the entry to the hideout and unlock it later? Locking it actually appeals to me more at the moment, because then the player doesn't even know what kind of place it is.



Quote
And Petja, I knew I shouldn't trust him.^^
>:D I really laughed when you wrote that:
Quote
While I still don't trust Petja any further than I can throw a piano, he does seem to do a good job as quartermaster.

Again, thanks for the feedback on this cutscene too! I wasn't so sure about it, if the surprises are so surprising at all, etc. Or if the "directing" / designing is ok.




On your thoughts about the rather quick outro sequence: Hm, I think, you're definitely right, some light on Kamil, etc. would be good. But again, I feel that the cutscenes again are very long already... Especially when "Dimitri Sladek" comes. No idea what to do here.


Again, thanks a thousand! This motivated me to keep on working on the next version. :)
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands
Post by: Undeceived on 11 Feb 2024, 17:08:09
Oh, didn't notice Gruntage's post above Clayman's. :good: :good: Will read it now.
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands
Post by: Undeceived on 11 Feb 2024, 17:32:43
@Gruntage

Ouch, I got it, I got it! :D

This is great feedback, because you're completely right! There should be some kind of stealth option to do the job... I'll think of something, thanks for your ideas!
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands
Post by: Undeceived on 11 Feb 2024, 17:39:36
@Clayman

I checked it. The crucial intel in the hideout should be there if the ammo crate was.
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands
Post by: Clayman on 11 Feb 2024, 17:57:02
Quote
should I rather lock the entry to the hideout and unlock it later?
I guess this would be the best way to solve this. Having access to the camp from the beginning, but nothing to find there until later, would feel strange.

I thought I had thoroughly searched the camp, and still almost missed the other intel. There is so much stuff lying around in the camp, which is good. But it's easy to miss something. The take action only appearing when looking at the exact spot doesn't make it easier, too. I don't know how this can be improved to make it more obvious of what is important.

So, are there actually different ways to approach this mission? As I wasn't sure if I had messed something up by going to the quarry before anything led me there. And the task with the murderer, I had the feeling that there was more to be found. Overall I had the feeling I had missed some stuff, not only regarding the intel from the camp.


Quote
Or if the "directing" / designing is ok.
Ok? No, it was not Okay. It was spectacular! Like I said, I enjoyed this ending much more than the one I had in my A2 playthrough. (I guess there is something similar when I manage to find Sergej.)


Quote
I feel that the cutscenes again are very long already
Sorry mate, but this excuse doesn't work here anymore. When a player reaches this point, he already endured (or enjoyed) like 27 hours of cutscenes.  :P Having an extended outro is what anyone would expect from you for a campaign like this.  ;)


Edit:
Quote
I checked it. The crucial intel in the hideout should be there if the ammo crate was.
Ok. I'll keep my eyes peeled the next time I play this.
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands
Post by: Undeceived on 11 Feb 2024, 18:46:43
Quote
So, are there actually different ways to approach this mission?
Well, I'd say yes. But bottom line there are two endings, finding Sergej or giving it up. The way to Sergej is via Jacek. From there on the mission is more straight forward, even though there will be some more choices to make.

Before finding Jacek there are some dead ends too, e.g. the dead civilian in Solnichniy. But you can only get to that civilian when you go to the quarry. And in the quarry you'll hear the drunkards mention the word Orlovets, so you have another lead. There is one more direct lead to Jacek, but I don't want to spoil that. Others mention that they saw or will meet Jacek in Solnichniy, so you can say that the quarry is one of the two important spots.

All in all it shouldn't be a problem or break anything when you snoop around without been told to do so.
Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands
Post by: Gruntage on 17 Feb 2024, 15:56:24
Had some time to test today so on we go...

Starting to Inflame Again (Part 2)

Quite a simple, straightforward mission but I feel there are some issues with its execution. I won't go into too much depth about how I completed it but I will highlight the key parts and comment on them.

The radio savegame. I think this is redundant as the game has a built-in save game mechanism. On previous playthroughs I've found I wasn't able to resume the mission from the campaign menu when utilising the radio savegame. That's probably a bug within Arma itself. My advice is get rid of the radio savegame as you don't need it.

I found that the run to the overlook (i.e. the objective) was a little on the boring side as nothing really of interest happened. There wasn't any music or sound effects to act as mood/atmosphere multipliers, no interesting dialogue between Tomas and Sergei. Felt a little lacklustre with room for improvement. Ended up using the time acceleration feature as I was confident that I wouldn't come across any enemies.

The revive script was again causing problems for me unfortunately. The holdaction 'circle' disappears which can be very misleading for people if they don't know how the script works. This can cause people to cancel the action thinking that it's completed when it hasn't. This is compounded by the fact that mission takes place at night and it's difficult to see the player's animations in the dim light. I know it's a third party script but it needs reworking because at the moment, in my view, it's not fit for purpose. I don't know why the circle disappears but that's probably the biggest issue. I don't like being unable to revive whilst prone as a few times I got my head shot off because my character insisted on kneeling in order to revive. I feel like reviving takes too long as well; I'm a sitting duck and it's not like I have a choice of where I can revive.

For me that script is a bit of a nightmare from a gameplay perspective. I can't really be all that constructive on this particular aspect because it's not a script I've ever delved into. If it's a third party script, I would look into finding an alternative as I'm sure there are loads out there. If you feel like it, you could try making your own but a simpler and thus more effective version.

One another note, I noticed that Sergei doesn't copy my stance when ordered to do so. He's standing the entire time. It's great for mobility as at least he and I get to places faster. But it makes him so easy to hit and he got downed several times because he doesn't want to get his clothes dirty, I guess  ::) .

When it comes to the gameplay, I have mixed feelings about it. I took control of the black site with some difficulty (Arma 3 AI) and so it took longer than perhaps it should have. The reinforcements arrived when I reached the shed with the hostages and I think this is when the mission execution took a hit. As soon as we got ported outside, we all got slaughtered within 5 seconds by a squad and an APC. As far as I could tell, there wasn't a way of countering the APC. Even if there was an RPG somewhere in that village, I wouldn't have had enough time to grab it without getting killed.

After a reload I found that the best way was to simply sprint away and hope that the AI teammates get the memo and do the same.....they didn't. They all got killed but the mission ended anyway successfully. I don't think they made it out of the walled section behind the shed because AI pathfinding.

That section of the mission feels weird because it almost relies on the AI needing to be smarter in order for the mission to function properly. If your teammates were players as opposed to AI, then the mission would work brilliantly and nearly all of the issues would disappear.

I think the reinforcements also make that section feel strange as well. Funnily enough I think at one point during earlier tests I mentioned the then lack of reinforcements as criticism. I think what we have now is maybe too difficult for 2-4 people to deal with (3 of whom being AI).

Obviously I don't consider myself very good at Arma so I'm very curious as to how this mission could be completed optimally. I'd love to see a video of how this one should be played because I feel like I'm missing something and it makes the mission feel strange to play. It reminds me playing the Apex campaign but as single player...very difficult because the campaign was balanced around multiple people playing.

I completed the mission but it felt weird because I'd lost my team and yet I was rewarded for it. It makes the player think that the teammates don't matter at the end of the day when in fact they do.

I like the concept and the plan; it makes sense strategically. But I'm not really a fan of the execution of this one.

If I get time later I'll have a look at the next mission.

Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands
Post by: Gruntage on 20 Feb 2024, 00:40:30
Continuing on...

Setting up Time

Remember this one back from the original tests. This is probably the first mission I've played so far that I've very much enjoyed, though the mission is not without its shortcomings. I haven't finished the mission yet; I'll have to carry on with it another day. On that note though, I think the mission is too long. The whole section with meeting Kamil should probably be in its own mission with its own cinematics and so on. Honestly after playing this one for about 3 hours, I was getting a little bored and was looking forward to the mission ending.

EDIT: I'll expand on this a bit more. A mission should be structured as such: beginning, build-up, climax, wind-down, conclusion. It's how stories in books and films are structured. In the case of this mission, you have your beginning at the camp, the build-up in acquiring the motorcycle, the climax in clearing the Russian camp, the wind-down in bringing your supplies back to the camp and the conclusion should be arriving at Kamil's house. There is an argument that the conclusion should simply be at the camp, with Tomas and Sergej visiting Kamil in a cinematic. In fact I'd prefer this.

If I were planning this, I'd have Tomas and Sergej visit Kamil at night, when they're less likely to be discovered or overheard. Right now you have them visit Kamil in broad daylight when Kamil is being watched. I would have thought two guys visiting Kamil would have been of some interest to the Russian intelligence service. It just feels like a bizarre choice for this important meeting to take place during day time.

Unfortunately what we have instead is the section with Kamil tacked onto what should be the end of the mission. It feels a bit weird. I noticed in the task info for finding Kamil that you say that the mission will end after the task. So it's like you're aware that the mission is too long by this point and you want to reassure the player. It's as if you're saying to the player 'don't worry it'll all be over after this'.

Anyway, I'll summarise the good parts and the bad parts of the mission below.

Functionally the mission is generally fine; there weren't any error messages or scripts not working as far as I could see. The mission allows for many different takes on strategy, offering choice which I'm a huge advocate for. In fact I like the concept of acquiring supplies very much as it gives the player a sense of accomplishment for having done so. At least, as long as the supplies are not simply ignored in future missions. I don't remember the rest of the campaign very well but I hope that the supplies I literally bled to get are made use of.

Probably the most enjoyable part of the mission was sniping the gunner of the patrolling BMP at the camp, which rendered the tank basically useless; it just drove round in circles not doing anything. It looked silly but it was satisfying to see. I wasn't expecting heavy reinforcements to arrive and unfortunately they did so when I was in the base. What followed was a game of cat and mouse between me and the T72. A few times I had to deal with game bugs such as being shot through walls and units requiring an entire clip of AK rounds before dying.

Eventually I cleared the base with a sigh of relief. There weren't any vehicles in the base for some reason so I had to run back to the fuel depot to grab a UAZ. I loaded nearly everything from the crate into the UAZ and drove back to the camp, detonating the charges at the fuel depot along the way. For some reason the objective to destroy the fuel depot didn't tick off despite the place being a smoldering ruin. I placed the charges on the fuel tanks so I think that should have been enough. At any rate, after returning to the camp I felt like a conquering hero with a great sense of accomplishment, so well done here.

So let's talk about the things that could do with some polish;

The amount of running is quite excessive in this mission to be honest and there were a few points where I had to use the accelerate time feature otherwise I'd have gone nuts. My personal stance on this is that if a player feels compelled to use the + key, then something should be done about it. It's not actually a difficult problem to solve. For example, you could place more foot patrols to increase the level of threat to the player and to establish the Russians as ruling with an iron fist. The player therefore has to be more careful with his movements which makes travelling more interesting.

Next, the dialogue. My main issue with the dialogue is that nearly all of it should be placed within a camera cinematic. During the conversation with Kamil, for example, I could literally run out of the house and sprint back to the camp with nothing to stop me. It's immersion breaking and this is probably the most egregious example of this. The dialogue with Kamil is well done but it's damaged by the player being able to run around his house with no consequences. The same issue applies in the camp when Tomas is speaking to other members of his team.

There were also a few moments in the dialogue that made me raise my eyebrows. For example, when Kamil asks what equipment that Tomas has, Tomas responds by saying that they basically have nothing. Motherfucker I just cleared an entire Russian base and a fuel depot, looted the whole place and drove everything back single handed. We have a lot of equipment. You get the point; it was just a bit strange and again, kinda breaks the immersion.

One other moment and this is really nitpicky. We get told in the camp at the beginning that Tomek knows an ex-CDF special forces guy. Later, when Tomek is awake, the dialogue basically repeats and we get told that Tomek knows an ex-CDF special forces guy. It made say 'you don't say?!'. I think the dialogue just needs a bit of looking at and polished.

Finally, the atmosphere. I found it a little lacking in this mission to be honest. The world feels somewhat populated but could do with a bit more to make it feel more realistic. I just remembered, when I went into the store in a village beginning with P that I can't pronounce, I had an AK, an RPG launcher, a Russian vest, helmet and yet nobody batted an eyelid. I'd have thought that the village people would have had a reaction, be it panic or cheering me on or something. At the beginning of the mission, I shot one of the policemen with a pistol and nobody reacted. When you stack these things up, it does take its toll on the immersion. Also are the police the enemy? Are they working for the Russians? Should the player be taking them out at all? That's more of a world-building issue.


Anyway, as I said, I haven't finished this one yet so I'll tackle the second part of this mission another time. The mission is enjoyable but could certainly be improved.

EDIT: One other thing I remembered. I shot two enemies in one village stealthily; no one was alerted. I put their gear in the motorcycle. I wasn't carrying any equipment yet I was shot at when leaving town. Was a bit of a let down to be honest because it means that stealth wasn't really an option when it absolutely should have been.


Title: Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands
Post by: Undeceived on 25 Feb 2024, 21:34:58
Thanks, Gruntage! I'm "on leave" here at the moment, but I read everything and I'm aware of your feedback. I won't go into all of them for the next version, otherwise I won't finish the project :D But some of them are too important and too "true" to leave aside. There might be some ways here and there to implement small changes to have a more or less better effect than it is now.

Thanks for your time (testing and then writing)! :good: