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Missions Depot => Mission Discussion => Topic started by: TheAbomb12 on 21 Dec 2002, 22:35:05

Title: Red Storm Rising Campain
Post by: TheAbomb12 on 21 Dec 2002, 22:35:05
Im looking to put together a team to make a campain on Red storm Rising. So if you have read the book and are intrested please tell me.
Title: Re:Red Storm Rising Campain
Post by: ntstlkr on 22 Dec 2002, 06:25:22
Cheers A,
As posted a little while ago, been heavily into researching and putting together material for this. Although I intend to incoporate some things from WWIII:The Untold Story (both older and updated books by Sir Gen John Hacket, would suggest you read those too in addition to TC's book). Would like to hear your views on this.

Have some rough outlines done of parts of the storyline, some music and sound effects saved up as well as listings of various vehicles/ac/vessels needed. Gotten some schematics/pics/diagrams and such for most of the needed addons to be built.

Various issue have to be worked out, most importantly the "larger scale map". This one alone impacts depictions of the air/naval battles since they take up the most space and are quite important for any realistic portrayal of those type missions. A blank piece of ocean does nicely (easy enough to make!) for any part of the North Atlantic, but the space and size needed to show the Soviet attacks against the American Strike Fleet/Convoys is key.

Would be really interested in discussing how you propose to tackle these things.

NSDQ!
Title: Re:Red Storm Rising Campain
Post by: TheAbomb12 on 22 Dec 2002, 23:35:18
Yes I think that the Russians attack on the convoy are very important, however, massive tanks battles should be the focus because that is the reason the convoys are out there.

As for addons, ofp should take care of most. for the missions we might need; SAM launchers/vehicles (both sides), almost the entire navy exept for the LST(both sides), a destructible bridge(for that sad scene in RSR), fighter planes (both sides), Leopord tanks, and finally bombers (b-52s,backfires). Those are all the addons that i could think of so do you have anything to add to that.

(I noticed your post before posting mine, I thought you were makeing a campain of the ww3 book :)...)
Title: Re:Red Storm Rising Campain
Post by: TheAbomb12 on 24 Dec 2002, 01:49:34
This is a little mission I put together real quickly

It's a med. scale battle where WEST holds the hill with limited armor support while the east has a large amount of armor and air support to take over the sector. This is how I imagine most of the key Tank battles and would like to expand in the depth and detail of the missions.
Note-I used a 1.0 ghz comp with 256mbs of ram so if you have less than this dont expect it to run very well.
Title: Re:Red Storm Rising Campain
Post by: ntstlkr on 24 Dec 2002, 22:07:55
Cheers A and Merry Christmas!
Ran your battle (I've got a 1.8 Ghz w/512 so it didn't do too badly, gotta tweak the specs so it'll run more smoothly though), good stuff!
Just a coupla things for consideration. We'll have to create maps that are more terrain specific to Central Europe. While some portions of the 3 base maps are ok, Germany's geography is really quite different from what the islands hold. Whether it's the Fulda Gap, the Harz Mountains and the Teutoberger Wald, or the Northern Plains.  I've got my own recollections from all the field exercises run there but I've also collected some good pics to build maps from.

Tactical notes:

While the Soviets espoused the same 24 hr battle doctrine we did, their implementation left much to be desired. They generally avoided full scale night-assaults due to the complexity of coordinating the various combined arms. This, combined with their highly centralized command structure and general low-level of professionalism exhibited by the line troops combined to make overly complex missions (like night actions) something to be avoided. What they lacked in finesse and tactical flexability they made up for in brute force and simple easy to understand planning. Their greatest emphasis was placed on superise, aggressive execution, and timing of combined arms fire.

Basically before your attack would even begin, serious artillery preparation would commence on the defensive positions. Just as the artillery lifted, the attack helos would come in to rocket any particular defensive strong points identified, all the while the armor and infantry would move in. Speed, speed, speed.

The first missions would be engagements between what we referred to as our "covering force" (usually the ACRs were designated for this role) and the Soviet "advanced guard" formation in what we and they both termed "the meeting engagement". I'll get into that later.

I'll put together a "package" of stuff for you to look over and see what you think.

NSDQ!


Title: Re:Red Storm Rising Campain
Post by: TheAbomb12 on 24 Dec 2002, 23:00:23
You are right about the night attack thing and artillery, however, the helos (in the book at least) did attack before the troops actually came as well as playing the role of close combat support. Also, the russian made several plans describing massed tank assualts over key areas over europe. Any massed attacks would have to be complex in nature(I do agree that these complex plans worked against the soviets i.e. ff)

I want to stress strengths and weaknesses of soviet/NATO forces. Soviets do have the superiority in numbers on the ground, however they lack the air superiority of nato. NATO on the other hand lack supplies, vehicles, and men but make up for it from close air support..
Title: Re:Red Storm Rising Campain
Post by: ntstlkr on 25 Dec 2002, 09:47:11
Cheers A,
Right on that Attack helo stuff, thats generally why they referred to them as supplements to the forward artillery. Our air superiority lies more in the quality and flexability of our air crews rather than numbers. While NATO could field 3000-3500 combat aircraft (including dual role light attack aircraft like the Hawk or Alphajet, which were primarily trainers), the Soviets could put in excess of 5000 or so AC into the air. However, like the ground forces, they relied on strict centralized control and very simple and straight forward tactics. They really never got the hang of the low-level stuff we developed following our experience in 'Nam. In addition, although they too placed an emphasis on suppressing air defense, they never developed into the art we did. They didn't have, and still don't as I recall, dedicated air defense suppression ac (like our F-4G, EA-6, EF-111's). We termed this particular type of mission as SEAD (Suppression of Enemy Air Defense) and it encompassed all arms assets. For example, if a portion of the enemy air defense is within range of our artillery (say 155-ER or MLRS) then we would allocate a portion of their fires onto AA sites to open up a break in the enemy sam and AAA belt.

An important part of the missions to think about also is the disparity not only between NATO-Warsaw Pact forces, but also between the various forces within the alliance itself. The Soviets had it way over us on standardization of equipment. I mean, when the design for all their weapons and equipment comes from ONE supplier, it makes it kinda easy to keep everyone together.

For us on the other hand, it was a whole another picture. Even within the US Army itself.

My Brigade (think I mentioned we were the largest combat brigade in the Army then), was equiped with M1As (CHOBHAM w/105mm gun) and were transitioning to the M1A1Es (CHOBHAM w/120mm smoothbore). That was from '86 to '88. BUT, all of our APCs were still M113s, with M901 ITVs for heavy AT support. We didn't get the M3/M3s till '88-'89. We used CUCVs (basically a Chevy Blazer), jeeps, although we did have some HEMMTs I think. The 3rd IN DIV did have Bradleys and M1As, but didn't get the M1A1Es till later.

Alot of the national guard units set for REFORGER did have both M1A1s and Bradleys.

The Brits were still using Chieftains, but the Challenger was being fielded (we went against them during the Canadian Army Trophy tank gunnery competition with the M1's their first time. The Challenger's were really having problems. As I recall it was the impetuts for them to develope the Challenger 2. The Germans had both Leopard 1A4Es and Leopard 2s. The Danes were making good use of the old Leopard 1s (they still did rather well). When we won the competition, we took everyone by suprise, since it was the first comp for our M1s, and noone expected us to do as well. I remember well the victory party at the beer tent for that one!

I think, if we get it all straight, we can offer, not only a compelling and interesting campaign. But one that shows some insight into the way the war would have been fought then.

Its alot to think about and go oevr but it'll be worth it.

Was Santa good to you this year?

NSDQ!
Title: Re:Red Storm Rising Campain
Post by: TheAbomb12 on 25 Dec 2002, 20:02:07
Yes, I'm having a rather fun christmas...

My computer just crash and I had to rescue it loseing all my ofp information.  >:(But what really bugs me is that I can't find the manual which codemasters put the authentication code on sooo....I won't be able to run anything for a while but even before we do lets talk about the start of the campain.

Do you want the campain to follow the story line of Red Storm Rising(I would perfer a campain with a different title but still mostly based of the book). do you have an aim scene name (damn i have to install that to) so we can talk at a little faster rate. Mine is *gasp* TheAbomb12 :)
hope to hear from you soon.
Title: Re:Red Storm Rising Campain
Post by: ntstlkr on 27 Dec 2002, 09:23:02
Cheers A,
Let me tell you, !%%%@$@%$&!!)**GHFQ@##!!, I spent a freakin hour typing out some crap heer and when I go to post it, my log in time had run out. So I lost it all!

Oh well, live and learn. Yeah been through all that reinstall crap. What a pain in the behind! I ended up having to buy the game again. Figures there's no way to get it back from online registration. I mean, whats the point of registering it anyways?

Alot to cover though. I'll have my AIM up this weekend, though I have ICQ running, my # is 157259562.

Originally the impetus for this came from wanting to do a series of missions showcasing various aspects of the modern battlefield (i.e. armor ops, mechanized, air assault, airborne, light infantry, Ranger & SOF, etc. doing the gamut of operations like ambush, meeting engagement, patrol, deliberate attack, AT defense etc.) and thats when the idea of using RD as a vehicle hit me.

I needed something a little more to flesh out the flow of the war on a operational/strategic level, so I turned to the WWIII book. There's some stuff in there that really provides some good background for the overall campaign. Some pivital battles to be fought to determine the course of the war.  The 2 books merge quite nicely.

We don't have to call it RD specifically, although, like you mention, using the book as a guideline works really well. Besides generating some great missions to perform, lets try to provide some emotional connection to the characters. Let the players feel whats its like to be the people involved in this conflict, and deal with the aftermath.

Actually, we need to recruit some more folks. Maybe it won't shape up to be a full blown MOD (although it looks like it), but having an individual handle each set of characters would be good I think. I.e. One guy handle the naval characters and look after those missions, same for the Central Europe guy, and so on. Kinda break it down according to character groups and battlefield area.

Something to consider.

I've got boatloads of music downloaded to listen too also.

Catch you sometime this weekend.

NSDQ!  

Title: Re:Red Storm Rising Campain
Post by: TheAbomb12 on 28 Dec 2002, 08:04:44
ntstlkr,
Get your aim up as soon as possible (i dont have icq)

I do agree with you about the potential future for this mod, however, lets focus on developing the story line, enviroments, battle details of the missions. That will make the actual production so much easier.

(we need to get talking on aim because this is really slow)
Title: Re:Red Storm Rising Campain
Post by: Fishion on 31 Dec 2002, 13:41:24
Hi,
I don't wanna mess too much with your ideas just a few
suggestion on the technical side that might (or might not) help:

-Anybody not familiar with modern Combat (and that would be
almost everybody, besides a few old tankers :) ), I'd suggest
you play a few hours of TacOps. It helped me alot to get a
different perspective on a cold-war combat enviroment.
You can get it at: http://www.the-underdogs.org/game.php?id=1116
(it's not the completes version on the net but it should do, I got one with about
200MB of Handbook data...)

-The real hard part on a mission would be to get part right with:
finesse and complex tactics (West) vs. simple tactics with brute force (and higher
numbers, East).
Considering that OFP is game that is largly based around
Infantry (but for Infantry Combat on those situations), it will
probably usefull to do this from a Infantry point of view, which
creates a few problems:
1) As an Infantry in the game it is sometimes hard to
understand what is going on, which is realistic, but when
fighting tanks I think you don't really figure what is going on,
besides that fact that Infantry based AT-Warfare simple sucks
with the AI (or did when I last tried it).
Communication could point a way out of the problem, though
looking form the realistic side, not every infantry soldier has a
radio. Of course when the play drives a tank you don't have the problem.

2) Artillery and Air-Power:
You somehow have to manage that the Artillery (which comes in before the
real Action beginns), appreas to be deadly and
effective, yet does not kill the player for more than 3 out of 10
times. In the end everything would look somewhat shot up.
It's possible but so far I had little success making it look
deadly and convincing (I used Sabot rounds, for smaler blast radius).
The biggest are probably the Helicopters, because they'll really
shoot up all friendly tanks, and bring quite an imbalance to the
field. Of course they could be shot down, or reinfocements
arrive after them, but somehow that never felt right.

3) AI, and the CarlGustav:
In the Army we trained it that way:
2 Guys, one with with the Pzf3 and one shot, the other
carrying one or more spare rounds for the Pzf3.
Unfortunatly I've never been able to recreate that in Ofp,
neither is the AI able to do that (specially not the shoot and
relocate part). The player can relocate though you have to
distribute ammo boxes along the secondary fireing positions.

4) Mobile defense: haven't been able to really implement
that...

All that leaves me with a big problem concerning Infantry
(provided that you use it for more than just cannonfoder for
tanks).

I know this hasn't touched the campaign issues of pictureing
the cold war gone hot, though I think you won't get around
the issue of Infantry against Tanks (if I remember it right it
was also in TCs book).
Besides that you'll need Troops from several nations...most notable Germany  8)
Is this playing in the Winter-Maps or the normal Maps?

-Fishion
Title: Re:Red Storm Rising Campain
Post by: TheAbomb12 on 02 Jan 2003, 06:38:17
Good stuff Fishion,

Right on about the numbers/firepower of Russians. West most of the time would be out numbered and out gunned and mostly on the retreat due to causalties and supply needs. I do disagree that the infantry based warfare is useless. Infact it should be quite effective,think about this. If you was 5 guys with some sort of AT weapons against lets say a T72, Even if there was a machine gunner up top(which ofp doesnt support) the tank would be dead real fast. Of Course not every infantry man will be carrying around an AT weapon, so of course their main job is to kill the enemy soldiers that do (as well as the ones that don't)

Don't worry about the Artillery if it seems underpowered, we can add sound if needed. As for Air support, helos should be overpowering on the battlefield, however, thier life expectance over the battlefield should be short  (especialy so to the russians)

Yes, I was thinking of germany as well. Germany will probaly be a mixture of west units (the german army) and resistance (civilians fighting for thier home). I also had an idea for an addon. Putting a TOW or AT missile of some sort on a jeep designed for hit and run attacks in mind.

Title: Re:Red Storm Rising Campain
Post by: ntstlkr on 05 Jan 2003, 04:33:35
Cheers All,
Will have more comments to post shortly, back from trip. AIM is up (ntstlkr) so lets get hooked up!
Title: Re:Red Storm Rising Campain
Post by: Fishion on 05 Jan 2003, 19:20:13
I didn't try to say Infantry AT-Warfare is useless, I said
it's gonna be real hard to put it into OFP in some useful
realistic way (at the moment every AI can only shoot one
shot with the CarlGustav...limiting thier effectivness).
I've made a small mission (quite along time ago actually)
trying to get some realistic AT-Infantry based Warfare, which pinnes about 20 tanks (Mostly T80 and T72, some
BMPs, and 2 BRDMs [when the addon cam out]), against
about 50 Infantry troops with CarlGustavs. I treally
depended on the player if he won the mission or not, though usually only 20% of the Tanks survived (without
the player doing anything...yes it was in Infantry
favourable terrain).

As for Helicopters and Arty...the hard part there it seems
is to make it balanced. Just a slight difference in the
parameters and they'd be either not convincing enough
or too deadly. Helicopter would have to do pop-up manuvers which no script exists yet.

Force-structure:
I personally would doubt that there would be civilians
fighting in germany, since in a ColdWar gone hot, everything would be happening a bit to fast, and
Weapons and Ammunition are somewhat short (execpt
maybe a few hunting rifles and shotguns...and nobody
would be that crazy to go fighting with that), though
germany has an army into which young men get drafted
(around age 18) for 10 months (at cold war times 15 months), as a result of that there is a large number of
men trained in the military and being (more less
nowadays) ready, to be reequipped in the reserves (that's the whole idea behind the drafting system isn't it?).
As a matter of fact I still got my uniform laying around
here (actually in a closet), and as far as I know there
were quite a stockpile of new weapons ready to be
handed out in the case of an conflict at those times.
So I'd say your Resistance part would actually be German Army Reserves.

-Fishion
Title: Re:Red Storm Rising Campain
Post by: Fishion on 05 Jan 2003, 19:29:38
Ahhh I love it when my 'puter screws up and I end up doulbe posting everything...sorry guys
Title: Re:Red Storm Rising Campain
Post by: Commando on 08 Jan 2003, 00:47:38
Cool! I always wished that there was a game or so or a mod about that book!  :D Hope to see some more stuff! I want to see some air action to.
And I can try making some but I only got a 1.2 gig computer with geforce 1 card but I think It will run good anyways.
Can I be a part of the team or maybe be a beta tester? :)
Title: Re:Red Storm Rising Campain
Post by: TheAbomb12 on 09 Jan 2003, 04:54:30
Sure we need more people and more fresh ideas. Your more than welcome to join the team. If you have AIM please give it to me, mines TheAbomb12.
Title: Re:Red Storm Rising Campain
Post by: Frosty on 25 Jan 2003, 00:51:39
Hmm, I was considering doing a project like this with Jakerod a while back. Well, I started compiling a modern US, German, Canadian, Italian and Soviet Union pack based on material the community had already released, cos so much stuff is underappreciated and underused I thought If I put it all together with bleeding scripts, explosion scripts and everything people would go WOW!

Anyway my US pack has (realistically coded - real weapon loadouts)

M1 Abrams MBT
M1A1 Abrams MBT
M1A2 Abrams MBT
M60A1 Patton
M60A3 Patton (the m60a2 was a bit defunct cos of the turret)
M113A1 (APC, Vulcan and medical)
M113A2 (APC, Vulcan and medical)
M109 Howitzer
M109 ADATS
Jeep
Jeep with MG
HMMWV
Fast Attack Vehicle
M36 6x6 Truck
5t Truck (all versions)

T-55 (the 3rd class reservists in RSR used this)
T-72
T-72 (all versions by SIG)
T-80
T-80 (all versions by SIG)
T-90 (by SIG)
BMP-1
BMP-2
BTR-70
BRDM-2
MTLB (versions by MAF)

There is so much stuff If I list it all, crap, ill take up a whole page. The german stuff is done by BW-Mod. Plus modern weapons pack. And infantrys (marines, paras, special forces).
Only prob is I burnt it on a CDR and now when I try to access the US stuff it says "error reading  from device". is there any program i can use to retrieve this information?

Oops forgot to say about helos and plans: F-14, F-15, F-16, F/A-18, Tornado, F-4 Phantom, MiG-21, MiG-25, MiG-29, UH-1D/Hs, UH/MH/HH-60s, AH-1s, AH-64 (a bit out of place in the 70/80's), OH/Ah/MH-6s, Mi-17, Mi-24, Mi-26, KA-27, KA-50, russian subs, Pauk boats, Zubr landing hovercraft, marines, rangers, paras, delta force, NAVY SEALS, Marine Force recon, tonnes of camo variations, so much stuff that I am pissed off for loosing   some of the US stuff on the CD but if you want it I can repair the pack and redo the US stuff, but only if you want me to help. Plus I'm good with ideas
Title: Re:Red Storm Rising Campain
Post by: TheAbomb12 on 25 Jan 2003, 02:18:11
great sounds good

I want to get cracking ASAP (i still have school)... anyways i haven't heard from ntstlkr for awhile so mabye we could get together sometime

oh yeah, i need to buy resistance because ive been lagging to get it (most of the cool addons like the migs require it). I would like to add some things to your list (if thats the complete one) so email me soon and ill reply :)
Title: Re:Red Storm Rising Campain
Post by: Jakerod on 25 Jan 2003, 17:43:24
Hey guys i might be able to help with this a little bit. I need to wait for my new comp however cuz i only have like 500mb of space left on this and everytime i open Nogova i can only play it for about 5 seconds then it freezes. And i only have 3 addons. DKM Choppers with Dust, BAS little birds and Mig-29. Well and the camel. so i need to get my new 40gb comp. If you want to talk with me PM me... or i can talk on AIM i already got theabomb and ngtstlkr on here so.
Title: Re:Red Storm Rising Campain
Post by: Frosty on 26 Jan 2003, 00:16:43
Hey Jakerod man, you'd be good with making new terrain. Remember those sectors you made - they looked pretty European.
And I am going to update my Soviet Union code and weapons, so we can all have some nice looking ruskies.
And ABOMB if you need anything else made, I'm your man.

BTW should the addon prefix be RSR? You know, like SEB, BAS, MAF, ect.

Oh and don't forget, the Command Engine would be pretty cool for some missions!
Title: Re:Red Storm Rising Campain
Post by: TheAbomb12 on 26 Jan 2003, 02:54:08
Yep, ive had some pretty cool mission ideas using the command engine (this will mostly be on the russian side)
Title: Re:Red Storm Rising Campain
Post by: Frosty on 26 Jan 2003, 05:22:27
Speaking of the Russians Abomb, this is what I have implemented today for the Red Storm rising campaign (that is if you still want me to work for you ;))

Red Storm Rising Soviet Union Pack
rsr_sov.pbo

Weapons:
AK-47
AK-47 + BG 15
AKM
AKM + GP 30
AKMS
AKMB
AKMN
AK-74
AK-74 + BG 15
AK-74M
AK-74M + GP 30
AK-74SU
AKS-74U

Music:
Communism (by seventh, not included in original flashpoint or resistance, downloaded from mp3.com.au)
Cold War Dawn (same as communism)
Soviet National Anthem (Instrumental)
Soviet National Anthem (with Lyrics)
 - these are included in the .pbo as a cfgMusic, can be inserted same way as original ones
Title: Re:Red Storm Rising Campain
Post by: TheAbomb12 on 26 Jan 2003, 19:23:32
yeah, I was looking forward to working with you...

one quick note... AK-47 would probaly be a little to out dated for the soviet army (or mabye not :), the soviets have been known to be pack rats and keep and use weapon systems for WWII up).


As for the music
I though that sevenths music was good, but i didnt like thier lyrics (I'm just not into that type of music). The russian nation athem is great though.
Title: Re:Red Storm Rising Campain
Post by: Fishion on 26 Jan 2003, 20:12:46
Yo,
I'd be happy to help out with a scrip here and there if you'd need that.

Besides what time is it suppost to play?
Because if you set it up at the time it is in the books,
you'll need much less of what you guy have put up in the list.
Most of what's already in OFP for the Russian side should do (okay someone might argue that it's not all that realistic. But at least its there). The thoughest part would be the NATO side. You definitly have to have german units, it all is in germany after all.
US are already in OFP (more realistic would be nice thoug).
UK forces (should be out there). French anyone?
The camo patterns are mostly avaiable. As for small arms, in Resistance is everything you'll need except the UK weapons (Germany used the G3 at that time and MG3 which is basically a MG42). That is also puplicly avaiable (HK Weapons Pack).
The biggest chocke factor then is the AT-Weaponry on both sides (for Infantry)
Then on the bigger scale another problem would be the Helicopters. Germany used at that time a Bo105 in the role the Kiowa, lacking a true Attack Helo. Don't know about UK forces or french.
Fro transport a Ch-53 and UH1, and the UH1 is avaiable.
As for planes you only need for cutscenes, in the Action there's nothing you couldn't fix with a custom sound and a script.

Keep in mind that the player mostly needs to download that stuff, and a 40MB dl for one mission would probably be unacceptable for most.

-Fishion
Title: Re:Red Storm Rising Campain
Post by: Frosty on 27 Jan 2003, 22:29:15
Hey man, don't you remember the book. There were A-Class, B-Class and C-class reservists. The A-class' got all the latest stuff. B-class were a bit older. C-class were older with even older equipment. T-55s, T-64s, Ak-47 and RPK-47. RPG-7 instead of RPG-7V. You know.

Don't worry, i've got French sorted out, but I gotta work on the soviets first.
Today I plan to do RPK-47 and -74, PKM, RPK-74M (I'm including a variety of weapons in case you want to change the time setting), AT weapons and a couple of sniper rifles. Oh, and I'm adding in realistic groups too (Rifle Squad, Platoon HQ ,ect) and a new class - Squad Leader. Behaves like an officer, but wears a helmet and does not carry a pistol. And I've added in "secret documents" for the Russian and NATO generals.
Title: Re:Red Storm Rising Campain
Post by: Fishion on 30 Jan 2003, 14:03:57
jo can you guys comtact me?

-Fishion
Title: Re:Red Storm Rising Campain
Post by: ntstlkr on 31 Jan 2003, 17:36:32
Cheers All,  :beat:

Sorry for the lack of dialogue but have been out of town for awhile and am catching up on everything. Should be on sometime tonight Abomb. Have worked out alot of stuff on a storyline to pass to you and notes and such. May post here though.

 :hmm:

Looks like there is some interest being generated so thats good. If anything, this proposal may be larger and greater than anyone quite realises just yet. It may literally take the entire OFP community to get it done. So that got me thinking... ???

What say we consider, for the moment at least, that this project invites everyone to participate. Every mod and add-on developer can be thought of as a "resource". We should keep the lines of communication open to all the groups out there to draw upon there abilities/advice/suggestions etc. That this becomes a community wide project, the likes of which has not been seen yet.

This isn't just a collection of missions.  We've seen enough of those (and good/great one's too!)

Lets give them a campaign, a story, an epic that the makers at BIS will sit back and say "whooaahh".  :D


Back later, CONSIDER IT!!! 8)
Title: Re:Red Storm Rising Campain
Post by: TheAbomb12 on 01 Feb 2003, 02:48:04
yes, now we are talking.
Thats exactly what I was thinking. So far we have almost all of the units that we may need, and we are still progressing with the maps. But there is still one question that I want to resolve, should the campaign be "novel" style where the missions shift between russians and american characters, or should we complete say the russian campaign followed be the wests campaign (or vice versa)? Im leaning towards the seperated sides missions, but what do you think. However, I wan't to keep the story line as intact AS POSSIBLE. I don't mind adding stuff that was possibley done, but don't want to do anything that contradicts the novel... unless we don't name it RSR  (most of the books that turned into movies mad me mad, especialy Sum of All Fears). But don't worry, I want to take creative liberties as well. :)
Title: Re:Red Storm Rising Campain
Post by: Frosty on 01 Feb 2003, 07:00:04
Yeah, all those addons I'm making are pretty much taken from the community. I'd appreciate one of you discussing the MOD with me, cos I think the addons I'm preparing are going to be pretty handy. I recieved TacOps 4 from a m8 the other day, it's got about 20 PDFs on tactics and equipment of the US army and some info on the OPFORs.
The Soviet troops are progressing nicely. I think I may do some RPGs today - how about RPG Nh-75, RPG-2, RPG-7, RPG-7V, AT-4, AT-5 and AT-7? And a man-portable SA-7 and 9K3S Launcher. I've also been preparing some Brits and Aussies (don't know why - Aussies were not in the book so theyd be a bit out of place, I guess I made em cos Im an Aussie). So, the book included Soviet Union, United Kingdom, France, Germany, Belgium, Norway and the United States.

Should I also include Yugoslavia, Canada, East Germany (DDR) and another Eastern Bloc country.

I hope to include plenty of features in the addons too, like Kegetys' bleeding and explosion scripts and the chopper downwash effect. Anybody whose working on  this MOD/Campaign PM with ideas.
Title: Re:Red Storm Rising Campain
Post by: Fishion on 01 Feb 2003, 09:13:33
I'm currently making a Tank_shock_wave script (when the tank is fireing, there's a little dust rising around it)
just in case...besides I think those scripts should not be
put into the addon, but rather into the mission (gives you more flexibility)

if anybody needs feedback/help, mail addy is jbaaz@gmx.net

-Fishion
Title: Re:Red Storm Rising Campain
Post by: Frosty on 01 Feb 2003, 13:33:16
Hey man, c'mon, everybody bleeds ;D! Sometimes it's red (well it's meant to be blue actually), sometimes it's black, but only if you pierce the liver (eww! :P). I can agree about the explosion script, but both are only executed on a random percentage when the condition has been reached. And only armored vehicles and fuel trucks explode. But I can see what you mean, if you really want me to, I can take it out of the EventHandlers. I like the tank shock wave script idea, but I  maybe it  perhaps could be executed through the config.cpp eventhandlers. Heard of the handler 'fired'. Anyway, it's up to you, good idea tho man! ;)

Good news, I'm getting broadband ($100 bucks a month in Australia, and I'm not a made man) so if I can secure a ftp it'll be fast uploads (well, free uploads) all the way man. Handy if the addons get to 50 Mbs big (as they most certainly will)

in regards to the mission, a certain poster has made a request for upcoming missions:
http://www.ofpec.com/yabbse/index.php?board=22;action=display;threadid=5896
I reckon we could grant his wish for more Atmosphere. To achieve that would be to in certain missions, maybe, report how the war is going on a global scale: eg. Our comrades in the North of Germany have struck through into the industrial heartland,
or something like that. You know what I mean. In depth  detail into the war and a very gritty atmosphere (that was the impression I got from the book, especially around the bridge with the shelled out civie cars)

Well, that was my rant for this evening. Good night gentlement, don't let the BMPs bite/

BTW when I was talking bout the FTP i meant using it to upload betas so the other team members can use eg. the addons for the mission makers.

And Abomb, I also hope we can really wow BIS.
Title: Re:Red Storm Rising Campain
Post by: Fishion on 01 Feb 2003, 14:41:59
Tank Shock dust script is BETA:
http://www.ofpec.com/yabbse/index.php?board=27;action=display;threadid=5897 (http://www.ofpec.com/yabbse/index.php?board=27;action=display;threadid=5897)

 ;D

What I did mean with the addons is this:
Using extensivly the drop command can produce quite
a load on a computer, specially if you have a large battle
running.
It also gives other used less flexibility when using the
addons you make. Another way would be to make two version of the addons, one with drop-scripts the other
without (can go into the same pbo :) )

As to campaigns and athmosphere:
I think when trying to make a convincing picture of what
is going on in war or better how the players character would feel in a war, it is important to feed him only certain informations, and not everything.
for example:
start -  the player gets told by his commander something has happened (get his orders), but no details except that NATO has lost communications with quite alot installations. You do as you are told...and on your way you see a few civilians on the run. Slowly you get the whole picture. As a soldier you usually don't get any information (because nobody cares to tell you whats going on around you). Leave him a bit guessing.
That also means that we cannot "jump" from one person to another during the campaign, specially not from NATO to Russian etc.
My idea would be to actually make more campaigns (if necessary...better stick to KISS and start out with one)
one for each important character. The Tank guy, maybe an infantry guy, and remember that guy in Island?
The campaigns would be rather short then, but I don't see anything wrong with that. Sever differnt angles to the same situation.

-Fishion
Title: Re:Red Storm Rising Campain
Post by: Frosty on 02 Feb 2003, 00:17:07
Indeed yes, the drop command can create quite a strain on the computer, especially with the fire effects. I shall include the scripts with the addon, But they can only be executed by the mssion designer (eg. this exec "rsr_sov\scripts\bleeding.sqs"
Title: Re:Red Storm Rising Campain
Post by: TheAbomb12 on 02 Feb 2003, 02:04:04
In refernece to the atmosphere...thats exactly what i was thinking. I have hd several ideas on how to portray certain feelings Chew on this...

Game start for WEST-

fade in of satilite images being projected on the screen, on them are several bid fires of russias main oil ref. (im thinking of useing CAT fires napalm), the cameras shift to several american analysts, they talk, blah blah blah (going to work out dialouges latter). Then there is the news broadcast the bomb that killed the children (i can't remember where that was right now) and russia states that germany (blamed for bombings) will pay some how Game shifts to NATO losing communications, obviously there is some sort of tension that should be felt. When the war finally breaks out the WEST side should be constantly on the run. In the early parts the WEST will fight, run, regroup, rinse and repeat. But i think most of the atmostsphere for the west will come from the civilians, becasue they are the ones losing there homes.... :'(
Title: Re:Red Storm Rising Campain
Post by: Fishion on 02 Feb 2003, 09:31:17
Another thing that is very important IMO,
is that a normal soldier does not have the overview
of the situation a general has, because simply he
doesn't get all the imformation.
For Example, if you are in an Infatry Squad, it frequently happens that you stop, keep low, look for the enemy and wonder why the F*** you are sitting here, and what is going on. Of course this was just on a small scale...think of that in a bit bigger scale.

Another thing Civilians. I think this would also be quite an important thing. By the speed of that war, you'll always have a few civilians in the town etc. a few burned out cars (I'm afraid we can't use the damage modells by BIS because they simply suck)...and alot of refugees.
So I'd say what we also need are:
Refugee camps, civi cars, civilians heading west in long trails...

Oh btw, I didn't remember the book all that well, but which river did they russians get stuck?
I'm asking in case you need a few pictures. Fulda is about 1 hour away from my home, and for the Rhein its 15 minutes...

and I think we should start thinking about how to make the large scale battles (the last think I saw by Abomb was unplayable for me)

-Fishion
Title: Re:Red Storm Rising Campain
Post by: TheAbomb12 on 02 Feb 2003, 19:27:01
  ;D lol. I just quickly put that mission together. It's not yet what I want, but it's a rough sketch. However, I like the pace the battle takes, but I wish we could find a way to lengthen the battle without having to add too many units or give one side too many tanks. Im sure we can figure it out. :)

As for dealing with information, I think that should be limited to sides. For instance, WEST knows that their supplies are low but don't know the size of the russian divisions. Of course they might be given intel about the approx. size but you can never fully depend on intel
Title: Re:Red Storm Rising Campain
Post by: Fishion on 03 Feb 2003, 00:29:47
Quote
As for dealing with information, I think that should be limited to sides. For instance, WEST knows that their supplies are low but don't know the size of the russian divisions. Of course they might be given intel about the approx. size but you can never fully depend on intel

Well, yes and no...even giving to much away about what you sides knows would give away tension and athmosphere. Again, the Tank Commander doesn't know what a general does know. Of course knowing too much about the russians is unrealistic...


Quote
but I wish we could find a way to lengthen the battle without having to add too many units or give one side too many tanks. Im sure we can figure it out.

I have a rough scetch of that somewhere above:
We can create units, and probably simulate a fight (the player can't see) in a more abstract way, only to make the results visual when the player is theoretically able to see them.
Let's say we have a visibility range of 800 meter,
so we have a bubble with a diameter of about 1800 meter around the player in which everything really takes place. The rest well doesn't really exists, only when the player walks there, then it will be placed.

It's possible I experimented with a scripting system to do just that (for a different more global purpose).
Theoretically you could have the whole frontline that way (provided the "Island" is large enough). On the other hand this will mean you can't build a mission anymore the way you normally build missions but it's mostly involves scripting...
oh and you are limited to 63 groups per side at any given time.
In two weeks I have a little time, maybe if you guys have worked out what you need I could work on the scripting system again (now that we have functions it's going to be a bit easier).

Another way to do it, is to use a Tank as a placeholder for a bigger group of tanks (so instead of having 12vs12 tanks, you have 1vs1 tank). Based on how the tanks get dammaged etc. you could use this as an simulation on how the battle went for the 12 tank group, and destroy them accordingly when the player could see them...
I might also add all this won't work in Multiplayer

a remark to our Addon guy:
I know someone made 1 AI tank Addon with the official tank, any chance we could get that? (why because the weak point of the scripting systems are the waypoints, I can create them...so having a group with 12 tanks is easier to handle than 3 with 4 tanks)

-Fishion
Title: Re:Red Storm Rising Campain
Post by: Jakerod on 03 Feb 2003, 01:53:44
This may be what you are talking about above: But this could be a cool thing to do: Have the player command 12 tanks. Have the player have 12 guys in his group using moveincommander put one guy as commander in each tank. Then use moveingunner and moveindriver to put in other guys. That way your men command each tank and can order the others around. Just a thought.
Title: Re:Red Storm Rising Campain
Post by: TheAbomb12 on 03 Feb 2003, 03:15:24
I used to have that addon (before my comp crashed). It would be nice to have tanks with only 1 AI.but having 12 tanks in a group is somewhat unrealistic, a tank platoon is 4 tanks including a tank commander.

Again coming back to intel, there are always some sort of info that gets down to tank comm. (mabye not on russians but Definitly on Americans side) and like I said, Intel isnt always reliable and shouldn't be depended on, we could toy around with that idea ;)

Fishion, I like your idea of 1v1 tanks, but I don't think it would be wise to do this with all tanks. I was thinking to employ this to the Russian tanks more, say 3/4 of entire force, and the the WEST, problay 1/2. This should give west the chance of surviving longer since they target more freely.

Oh yeah, is it possible to have a script that "creates" units in game, or have a group under civi.'s side then move to east's side as reinforcments (thus saving room for the 63 units per side and making sure not active too soon)
Title: Re:Red Storm Rising Campain
Post by: Fishion on 03 Feb 2003, 11:27:03
Ahhh actually I should clarify what I did mean with the 1vs1 concept:

the 1vs1 battle is simply to simulate the battle the player can't see.
If a tank gets kill you spawn another one next to him, but there are other ways to do that.

Main point is, to use the the OFP engine to simulate a much larger battle in more abstract way, if the player can't see it.
How to do that realisticly is up for discussion, but IMO if wanting to have alarge battle, we need to lower the AI and Vehicles
used, if we want to add some special stuff (like burning things). And we need to lower them drastically considering that those battles
have in excess of 1000 tanks involved (on a realistic scale).

Another idea would be just to use 1 tank per group as a place holder (you need someone to know the waypoint...it's a technical issue)
and where the tank group currently is, without having anything fireing, and calculate the rest.

Question to Frosty: can you make a unit that can move (like a tank) without weapons that has 1 AI and uses no polys (is invisible)?
That would be perfect that way the engine doesn't have to worry about drawing them on sceen.
When the player starts to see the group, you simply start replacing the one "dummy" with the real tanks in formation...

Anyhow, do we already have concept on the storyline? And/or mission story line.
I.e. how many missions, what is each mission about and what happens.
How many large battle missions do we have?

-Fishion
Title: Re:Red Storm Rising Campain
Post by: TheAbomb12 on 04 Feb 2003, 01:51:51
Sounds good-

Im going to draft up a storyline/mission concept by the end on next week (say next sat.). Im going to tediously follow and read over the book for little details and then fill in the blanks on the rest.

For now can you guy's draft up a mock mission (just make up anything) implementing what you are talking about and perhaps I (we) can see just how far we can push this technique.
Title: Re:Red Storm Rising Campain
Post by: ntstlkr on 05 Feb 2003, 22:25:25
Cheers All,
Busier than the proverbial one legged man in the a## kicking contest, but I've put together some notes and stuff to read over and mull about.

More forthcoming when I get a break, really have to reach out to fishion.

Catch you guys when I get a chance.

Title: Re:Red Storm Rising Campain
Post by: ntstlkr on 05 Feb 2003, 22:26:25
More
Title: Re:Red Storm Rising Campain
Post by: ntstlkr on 05 Feb 2003, 22:26:59
ditto...
Title: Re:Red Storm Rising Campain
Post by: ntstlkr on 05 Feb 2003, 22:27:52
....background notes....
Title: Re:Red Storm Rising Campain
Post by: ntstlkr on 05 Feb 2003, 22:32:28
More to show up. Need emails and such to distribute files/etc.

Will catch you guys laters...

NSDQ!!!
Title: Re:Red Storm Rising Campain
Post by: Frosty on 07 Feb 2003, 07:42:37
Question to Frosty: can you make a unit that can move (like a tank) without weapons that has 1 AI and uses no polys (is invisible)?
That would be perfect that way the engine doesn't have to worry about drawing them on sceen.
When the player starts to see the group, you simply start replacing the one "dummy" with the real tanks in formation...

Hmmm, hard, depends what you mean, and which units. I could delete the LODs for the abrams, and mask  a small little polygon at the bottom, so that it knows where the ground is, and keep the LODs and Geometreys, but what point would this have?
Title: Re:Red Storm Rising Campain
Post by: Fishion on 07 Feb 2003, 12:57:50
1) I got another idea, this time for a possible music:
actually its a song from WWII, and it's called Lilli Marlene
probably the  most popular war song ever, it has it's own
mood, which I think is rather strange, something between cheerful
and lots or dark sinster mixed to it.

http://ingeb.org/garb/lmarleen.html (http://ingeb.org/garb/lmarleen.html)

It also exists in 48 languages (according to the historical
text there)

2) to frosty:
Quote
Hmmm, hard, depends what you mean, and which units. I could delete the LODs for the abrams, and mask  a small little polygon at the bottom, so that it knows where the ground is, and keep the
                             LODs and Geometreys, but what point would this have?

That I have something that behaves like a tank, but simply isn't there (in other words the engine doesn't have to worry about painting in screen)
Every little piece of CPU power that we can get we can need.
having only a polygon driving around instead of a tank, leaves up
a small bit of power, imagine that with 63 groups (usually the amount of units on a map)...
anyhow, just depending on how hard it would be to make...actually forget it till we
any scripting system is finished...

-Fishion
Title: Re:Red Storm Rising Campain
Post by: Frosty on 07 Feb 2003, 14:07:55
... so you can command many tanks over a wide front with minimal lag? I think I get it now.
And tanks for the info ntstlkr, they can help with ideas for addons (M60s, M1911a1s), but I wish we could get info on ORBATS and TOEs for the US and Soviets during that time.
And BTW, the soviets are progressing slowly, but nicely. It's a long road. Was the Soviet BDU at the time of RSR same as the flashpoint 1985 (original) campaign, cos if it wasnt ill have to procur another.

Want music? I can add them to the addon packs so they can be accessed just like original flashpoint (for example, the Seventh songs) instead of having to be put in individual mission pbos and description .ext


BTW I know this message is a bit disoreintated, it is an info dump but i went to the soviet uniform site in the notes and saw that the uniform isnt much different from the WWII ones.

So forces to be included:
US Army (do you want them with national guard uniforms?)
US Marines (army and marines in woodland?)
UK Royal Marines?
UK Royal Paratroopers?
UK Light Infantry?
French Army
German Army
Poland, Czechaslovakia, Finland? Any of those?
Soviet Union
Italy?
Title: Re:Red Storm Rising Campain
Post by: Fishion on 07 Feb 2003, 17:47:49
Quote
... so you can command many tanks over a wide front with minimal lag? I think I get it now.

Well, technically it's not lag, and it's not intended for the
player to command all the tanks, but in a large battle,
it is neccessary to have those tanks (can't have large tank battle with 12 tanks right?)

The OFP engine supports 63 groups per side, 12 units each, which simply takes alot of CPU power...the idea was to remove some of them, (best if all, but that's not possible...) when you cannot see them.

-Fishion
Title: Re:Red Storm Rising Campain
Post by: Fishion on 09 Feb 2003, 09:41:46
Maybe it's just me...did you get my emails?
Because I only know that I got the right addy from Abomb...haven't heard fro Frosty or Nightstalker

-Fishion
Title: Re:Red Storm Rising Campain
Post by: Fishion on 09 Feb 2003, 12:05:33
Hi it's me (again),
I think I could lay my hands on some original in detail maps of the Fulda Gap. Only thing I don't know is if they
are from 2002 or 1985.
Could we need that stuff?

-Fishion
Title: Re:Red Storm Rising Campain
Post by: Commando on 17 Feb 2003, 22:55:46
Do you guys got any cool screenshots of your work or any mission you can try? I love air missions and i hope you could make the battle of the iceland between the migs and the american carrier planes? And then there where some fights around the convoys too that would be cool if you people recreated! :D And I saw on flashpoint.ru site that the russian plane called "backfire" by nato is beeing made by some dude..(i think those where the planes that fired long distance missiles against the carriers and the other ships in the convoy..)

Well I would like to hear some more news from you guys because I think your campaign or mod sounds damn interesting even though you are probably going to focus on tan battles but i think there's room for other stuff to ;)
Title: Re:Red Storm Rising Campain
Post by: Commando on 17 Feb 2003, 23:57:09
here's the adress and its the english version  ;)
scroll down on the news page and you should find it. its namned s-37
here's a pic http://www.flashpoint.ru/news/images/s37-01.jpg
Title: Re:Red Storm Rising Campain
Post by: Johan_D on 06 Mar 2003, 13:41:24
Any updates guys?
Title: Re:Red Storm Rising Campain
Post by: Fishion on 06 Mar 2003, 17:18:58
Good question.
I've updated the documentation a bit (mostly non mission stuff)...

-Fishion
Title: Re:Red Storm Rising Campain
Post by: max_killer_payne on 13 Sep 2003, 11:54:14
Just wondering hows the mod going? And will you play from a Russian point of view or American?
Title: Re:Red Storm Rising Campain
Post by: Jakerod on 14 Sep 2003, 03:50:50
Don't think they are doing it anymore dude. . Frosty's computer got screwed up pretty bad. and a few of the others disks got lost/broke. I think im not positive.
Title: Re:Red Storm Rising Campain
Post by: max_killer_payne on 14 Sep 2003, 10:05:50
O rite. Thats a shame, sounded like a promising mod.