OFPEC Forum

Missions Depot => Arma2 - Multiplayer Beta Testing => Topic started by: laggy on 26 Jun 2009, 22:28:45

Title: [SP/COOP/ADDON-FREE] 1-6 Behind Enemy Lines 1.0 (Please Review)
Post by: laggy on 26 Jun 2009, 22:28:45
Mission "1-6 Behind Enemy Lines v1.0" by Laggy.

Watch teaser trailer (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vUx8fzasU2g&feature=related)

Public 1.0 version.

Mission description: You are a Force Recon team whose chopper gets shot down over hostile ground. You are alone and have to make your way back to base across enemy territory.

ArmAII version 1.05

Needed Addons: None

Known bugs: None

IMPORTANT: This mission is supposed to be played with human leader and AI enabled. Dialogues and events are based on who is left alive in the group. Tested on dedicated server.

Thanks to: All of you at the OFPEC forum.

Credits: Nominesine and Johnnyboy for serious playtesting. DeanosBeano for information about a specific "unit". Hoz and JamesF1 for dedicated server testing.


Important changes in version:

1.0

-Added overview for SP.
-Nicer titles.
-Briefing now updated after player is killed and/or teamswitches.
-Side respawn used so you can teamswitch even in MP.
-Removed map, compass and other items from everyone but leader, you can now enjoy getting lost in Chernarus.
-Tweaked difficulty and timing.
-Removed AI leaders move order, since teamswitch now works in MP, player should lead all the time.
-Enemy artillery less accurate.

0.98

-Difficulty after half-time (half-map) increased... more hunting groups and stuff.
-If leader is all of a sudden not player ("respawn and First-Aid module" issues) AI continues towards U.S Base.
-Other minor stuff, possible error messages etc.

0.97

-Increased difficulty (again... some testers complained about boredom, while some find it unbeatable.)
-Implemented the First Aid module.
-ACM module now initiated correctly also on dedicated server.
-Intro Huey now flies away as it should also on dedicated server.
-Added one more tracking group.
-Roadblocks added at random positions.
-Sounds now fade properly over distance.
-Total randomness slightly reduced.
-Other minor stuff.

0.95

-Sentimental outro added.
-BIS Conversation disabled on officer at the end to avoid weird effects.
-Briefing revised.
-A few surprises.
-Instead of just a present trigger the mission now ends when a player reports to the officer in Chernogorsk.
-Other minor stuff.

0.92

-Slightly enhanced intro, JIP friendly.
-Some character development.
-More dialogue possible, depending on who is still alive.
-A few more editor placed enemies, not too many though.
-Modules revised.
-More civilian life and eye candy.

0.90

- Added mission version number
- Revised briefing
- Better unit placements
- Some triggers moved
- Scripts changed


Missiontype: Multiplayer COOP, but SP is possible.
Players: 1-6
Mission Time: Around 60 min, maybe more.
Island: Chernarus
Mission Version: 1.0
Intro: Yes
Outro: Yes
Parameters: Yes (Intro option)
Time: Late afternoon
Weather: Good


Missionwork: This is a mission I always wanted to do, but it would have been too heavy on a PC before ArmAII. You are moving over huge areas and the enemy presence is very random. The design really takes advantage of the new modules in ArmAII and since the mission is very free with a simple objective, you have an endless variety of possible strategies. This mission varies from stealthy "hide and seek" to some of the most intense fights and stressful retreats I have experienced in a BIS game. Custom sounds, dialogue and scripts.

Contact: tolaggy@hotmail.com

Hope you enjoy it. My wish is that I've created a fun mission.

Laggy

Title: Re: [SP/COOP/ADDON-FREE] 1-6 Behind Enemy Lines (BETA)
Post by: kju on 26 Jun 2009, 22:50:30
Cheers  :good:

Does it contain you arty FX already?  :whistle: :D
Title: Re: [SP/COOP/ADDON-FREE] 1-6 Behind Enemy Lines (BETA)
Post by: laggy on 26 Jun 2009, 23:10:52
Does it contain you arty FX already?  :whistle: :D

Ehhh... don't know what you mean, but there is no artillery module so far... if that was the question  :dunno:
If the question was if I've included any of my arty FX (as in "artsy fartsy") then... Of course  :D

EDIT: Mission updated in first post to version 0.90.
Teaser video added as well.
Title: Re: [SP/COOP/ADDON-FREE] 1-6 Behind Enemy Lines (0.90 BETA)
Post by: nominesine on 02 Jul 2009, 09:34:21
The promo video was a very nice touch indeed. It helped building suspense in advance and added to the immersion. I made some notes during our test session yesterday. Since you were part of that session, I won't go into too many details. Here we go...

BRIEFING: Looks good. Everything I need to know is there and all links are working.

INTRO: While I'm waitin for the black screen to finish "receiving" a conversation between two soldiers start in the background. After 10-15 seconds the camera pans over these very soldiers, as they finish their patrol and board a waiting helicopter. Several inflight shots follows (exactly as in your trailer). Good choice of music. Eventually the screen goes black again and the sound of a crashing helicopter can be heard. Subtle and effective. I suspect that you didn't intend for the conversation to start before the game had finished loading for all players. But it looked good nevertheless, so I don't consider it to be a problem.

The problem with the Intro is that JIP players will also have to watch it as they join the server. Since the helicopter from the intro have then been deleteVehicled, JIP-players will have to watch the ocean from below instead. This always happens when the camera is given a target that no longer exists. I don't know how to solve this problem. Maybe others do. It's rather annoying though.

MISSION: As the mission starts I find myself next to the crashed helicopter. The team leader shows some sitiuational awareness when he runs a head count. Good. Barking dogs and foreign voices can be heard in the distance. The enemy patrols are moving in on us. Effective story telling. Very good.

As far as I can tell this is a very simple mission. You have created a startpoint and an endtrigger that requires some serious trekking to reach. You've also added a trackdog scripts and enemy patrols that actively seeks the player's squad. The dog was a very nice touch (and it felt really good to shoot the barking bitch with a sniper rifle). The rest of the mission is generated randomly using the  modules for ambient combat and civilians. Is that correct? It works very good. I didn't discover any flaws during the two sessions we played yesterday. The mission is rather slow, wich I happen to like, and it requires team work to finish. One minor detail though.

Since the ambient combat module sometimes spawns friendly forces as well as enemies, the players are bound to wonder: Why can't I contact these allies or call for a rescue helicopter? I think you should add a line to the briefing, explaining that the teams long range communication system is defunct. Apart from that I have nothing to add. All in all a very enjoyable mission. Since we never managed to reach our safe zone (mainly thanks to my lousy driving), I cannot say anything about the mission ending right now.

SUMMARY: Fix the JIP issue. Everything else seems to be working more or less as you intended. No locality problems. No serious bugs so far. Since the mission is very randomized I recommend a few more test sessions.

 :good:
Title: Re: [SP/COOP/ADDON-FREE] 1-6 Behind Enemy Lines (0.90 BETA)
Post by: laggy on 02 Jul 2009, 16:13:30
Thanks a lot  :good:

Yes the "JIP non-friendly" intro is annoying to edit well I think.
Guess I must make the publicVariableEventHandler work properly, I'm on it!

All the other points noted, will look into them.
Might put in a couple of more "obstacles" as well...

PLEASE KEEP IT COMING!!!

EDIT: From master scripters I have been told that "addPublicVariableEventHandler" is NOT the solution, but I got some good advice on it anyway.
Title: Re: [SP/COOP/ADDON-FREE] 1-6 Behind Enemy Lines (0.90 BETA)
Post by: Rellikki on 02 Jul 2009, 23:21:28
Well, we just tried it out with Zipper5. I took the Heavy Gunner slot and he was the Corpsman... After the mission started, we continued on to the closest town from the crashsite (Novy Sobor, if I remember right), trying to fight the massive lag we had (Not mission related. Internet connection problems... ;) ). We found a car and boarded it and continued to the south all the way to the USMC base... That's it.
Did we miss something? We didn't even see a single enemy. ??? The mission wouldn't end either. I suppose we had to report in to the officer at his laptop? Well, nothing happened when we were there. Kinda confusing.
Title: Re: [SP/COOP/ADDON-FREE] 1-6 Behind Enemy Lines (0.90 BETA)
Post by: laggy on 03 Jul 2009, 00:37:48
WHAT!!!  :blink:

Thanks a lot for the feedback Rellikki and I have found what I/you missed.

Looking closely at how you played it I see some major problems in my mission info/design - or your choices  :P
You (2 players) decided to play the Heavy Gunner and the Corpsman, which means that no one played the group leader which controls the AI. I didn't intend that to be an option and that is the issue. I have never been a fan of disabling AI slots and my briefing should have been more clear about this. While you ran away your team mates took the hit I suppose. Hmmm... unless the remaining AI was deleted by some setting of yours in the MP lobby. Anyway, not playing as a group with a human leader is what caused this effect.

Important info:

1-In a mission without waypoints ONE player must always play the leader. I thought this was standard procedure.
2-The reason why the mission didn't end was because the WHOLE group must arrive at USMC base.
3-The whole design builds on the whole team working/keeping together, AI and/or players.
4-If you try it again (and I hope you do), put one player as leader of the group and don't disable any AI. That will definitely change things.

Don't know if I will re-design the mission to make it work in your "style", since I think it kills immersion and realism. Just play the leader and take the heavy gun yourself  ;) Part from the issues mentioned above you must have been quite lucky anyway.

Thank you for this enlightening info, it is easy to take for granted how players will think and play your mission and what is obvious to one is not necessarily clear to another. Please try it again or wait until the next release (working on it right now) and play it with a human leader and AI this time.

Cheers,

Laggy
Title: Re: [SP/COOP/ADDON-FREE] 1-6 Behind Enemy Lines (0.90 BETA)
Post by: Zipper5 on 03 Jul 2009, 00:49:34
I think it's quite bad to rely on players to play it exactly how you imagined it, especially in MP. I've never been a fan of controlling AI in MP. It's fine in singleplayer, but due to lag and other issues it is much harder and annoying to do so in MP. Having someone always play as squad leader is definitely not procedure.

Also, there's a major design flaw in how you end the mission. Requiring the whole team to be there, whether people are actually playing as them, is a very bad thing to do in MP. As mentioned earlier, I, amongst many others, do not play often with an AI squad in MP, so I tend to disable them immediately.

If you want to keep it this way, and by all means it's up to you, that's perfectly ok. It's your mission, you're free to do whatever you want. My personal advice, however, is that either you modify the mentioned areas to make it a better MP-friendly mission, or stick with how it is now but change it to singleplayer only. It'd work perfectly if it was a singleplayer mission.
Title: Re: [SP/COOP/ADDON-FREE] 1-6 Behind Enemy Lines (0.90 BETA)
Post by: laggy on 03 Jul 2009, 01:36:55
Hi Zipper5 and thanks for your input.

Point taken and I'll consider the recommendations, to make the mission broader in terms of taste.

I however am from the other school, that wants to play a scenario with the setup that was originally intended by the mission designer. This doesn't mean "Play the mission in my planned order" - that's boring, but simply "play the mission with ALL the provided characters". To me disabling AI is like watching a movie where one of the main characters is missing.

Example: In my next mission you'll be looking for something/someone and one of the group members will be a local interpreter helping your USMC team, talking to the local civilians. What if you disable/delete him? Kind of ruins the whole idea and setup.

This is something my mission descriptions and briefings will clearly explain from now on, thanks to your feedback. I will also see if there is anyway to force the AI to stay in the mission, but I haven't tampered with that stuff for a long time now.

If you think about it... It's almost impossible to design any kind of MP mission other than "respawn paintball" or "kill'em all" type of scenarios, meaning NO story/atmosphere, if you must cover ALL possibilities in terms of "player style" AND keep some kind of realism/immersion.

Not saying I'm right, just my view, that's what I like to play and how I design my own MP missions. To be MP compatible SP missions with sometimes a story/dialogue and usually ALL characters needed. If you prefer the other "school", that's cool, but you probably won't enjoy my missions, that's for sure  ;)

Cheers and thanks again,

Laggy
Title: Re: [SP/COOP/ADDON-FREE] 1-6 Behind Enemy Lines (0.90 BETA)
Post by: johnnyboy on 03 Jul 2009, 08:30:07
Hi Laggy,

I gave this ago in MP, but I was the only human (took the leader slot).  Here goes:

0. Loading screen says "Get Ready.  You're gonna need it!".  "Good luck.  You're gonna need it!" would make more sense...

1. Great utube video.  Good sales job.  Titles looked professional.

2. Good intro setup.  Amusing dialog.  Yours?  Or borrowed from somewhere?  Just curious.

3. Respawn to Group.  Excellent.  My favorite.  OFP/ARMA too difficult for one life/game over (IMO).  Definitely my preference.

4. For 36 minutes of heading SW and S, very little happened.  Small squad behind us happened, my boys took most of them out.  A bit later 3 guys to the East, we took down 2, the other got away.  A few choppers flew by in the distance.  My boys spotted a truck (I didn't).  One very cool UAV overflight (directly over us).

5. Finally encountered large squad in the woods, that took us all out within one minute.  I probably got complacent after few contacts for so long.  Total time 38 minutes.

Overall:  I like it.  Exploring a big world, making my way to safety.  No idea what/where/when something will happen.  But I might like it because Arma 2 still so new, bright, big and shiny...  I will try it again, hopefully with a friend.

Suggestions:  A little squad dialog for immersion?  You have two personalities set up in the intro dialog (bullshitter talker, and the guys sick of hearing his bullshit), so maybe play up that a little?  Or comment on the terrain, nearby stuff, bitch about the predicamint, question player's leadership, whatever...

Maybe more action?  Or because this is random, were my encounters unusually light?  (Obviously not too light, since I was wiped out, LOL).

Amount of action may be fine as is though, because I don't like impossible missions with loads of enemies.  Those missions are either silly, too hard, or both.  So not sure if I'm complaining or not...  Arma fans should like it.  My more action oriented friends might not.

Attached are two screen shots that show the path I took, and where the encounters took place.

Nice job.  Keep em coming.  I hope to produce a coop mission this summer myself.
Title: Re: [SP/COOP/ADDON-FREE] 1-6 Behind Enemy Lines (0.90 BETA)
Post by: nominesine on 03 Jul 2009, 09:32:03
Three things poped into my head this morning...

1) Since this is an overland trekking mission, there's a very simple solution to the "group leader issue", where no player picks the required slot. Place a trigger on the map, set it to true and write this in the activation field:

Code: [Select]
if (isPlayer myLeader) then {hint "It's a groupleaders job to guide his team to safety"} else {group myLeader move (getPos myEndTrigger)}
If the leader slot is empty the whole team will start to move towrds the end zone. They will only move in a straight line towards the destination, but since the mision is heavily randomized this shouldn't be a major problem. And yes, it is entirely possible to direct movement to a named trigger. The mission then becomes playable regardless of the slot you chose.

2) Maybe you should add a couple more editor placed groups on the map, to ensure that the trekk back to base doesn't end up being entirely uneventful. Don't overdo it, though. I like the mission because it often lures me into a false sense of being secure: "There's no one around, let's get going." In it's current state, the mission forces me to be on my toes, even though there's not a single enemy in sight. As Johnnyboy suggested, you may also add to the immersion by developing the story started in the intro. Maybe have the two personalities arguing with eachother:

"This would never have happened if you hadn't insisted that we were to be extracted from that desolate field."
"You're way out of line soldier. Pipe down and fall back."

I don't think that the mission needs more action. It's a mission that reqires patience and I think you should leave it that way. I also like the fact that I cannot foresee what will happen, or if anything will happen for that matter. But, as someone mentioned, maybe this is just because everything in ArmA2 seems new to me. With more experience I'm bound to recognize the random events spawned by the game engine for what they are: spawned events that follow a simple format. Therefore it might be a good idea to add things that is obviously editor placed, and included by the mission designer. As stated though, I dont think more action is required. Go for more eye candy instead.

3) Regarding the "whole group present" issue. I do not agree with the statement above. Requiring the whole group to reach the final destination is a very good mission objective. "No one gets left behind", as a popular war movie featuring a defunct Blackhawk helicopter stated in it's subtitle a couple of years ago.
Title: Re: [SP/COOP/ADDON-FREE] 1-6 Behind Enemy Lines (0.90 BETA)
Post by: laggy on 03 Jul 2009, 12:33:19
@ Johnnyboy
Thanks a lot for your kind words and constructive feedback, even with screenshots  :good:
I'm a big fan of your ArmA mission "Last Tango in Bagango" myself.

Glad you liked the "movie trailer", I was thinking about adding the voice of "preview guy" as well.
About the dialogue... Yes that is custom... I know some REALLY amazing actors... actually... Ehhh...  :-[

About your feedback: Points taken and I fully agree with them all, but I'm uncertain about one - the action factor. This is because the mission is VERY random and it is hard to predict the difficulty, even for me. This is the main reason the mission needs more testing, as then some kind of pattern will hopefully show. The new modules in ArmAII are new to us all and the info on the WIKI is still very limited.

Again, thanks a lot for your serious beta testing and I hope you'll enjoy the next version even more.
You might want to wait for the next release before trying it again  :P


@ Nominesine

Thanks for the "move to trigger" tip, never tried that before. Might make the possible AI leaders route a little more random though.

Like you and Johnnyboy said, it is hard to tell if the mission itself is actually good when the game still has the "awe-factor". To me it seems like BIS has made it easier for the mission designer though, who now can focus more on story, dialogue, atmosphere and the actual objectives. Before ArmAII 75% of the work was to create a believable world experience.

Thanks a lot to you too.


@ both of you

Working on an updated version right now which will have the additions that you both suggested:

-Slightly enhanced intro and this time JIP friendly.
-Character development.
-More dialogue of all types, for greater immersion during the actual mission.
-A few more editor placed enemies, not too many though.
-More civilian life and eye candy.
-If possible, unabling "disableAI" in the MP lobby, otherwise a clear note about this.

Cheers,

Laggy
Title: Re: [SP/COOP/ADDON-FREE] 1-6 Behind Enemy Lines (0.90 BETA)
Post by: johnnyboy on 04 Jul 2009, 02:07:05
Here's a thought about guaranteeing a player leader.  At game start you can run a script to regroup units to a player (if leader not equal player).  

In the script, pick first player found, and re-assign all units this new player/leader.  Kill the original leader, and  place his body at the feet of the new player leader, and make some comment about not surviving the crash ("I told him to wear his seatbelt!").  If you want to maintain the squad size, then spawn a co-pilot into your group also.

Just an idea...   Wish I had more time for mission making dammit!

Edit:  Also, if server disabled ai, and you want to guarantee certain number of units in squad, you could create the extra units to fill the squad at init time.
Title: Re: [SP/COOP/ADDON-FREE] 1-6 Behind Enemy Lines (0.90 BETA)
Post by: laggy on 04 Jul 2009, 02:16:31
Thanks again Johnnyboy,

You really should make more missions  :P

I'll beta test them gladly.
Title: Re: [SP/COOP/ADDON-FREE] 1-6 Behind Enemy Lines (0.90 BETA)
Post by: nominesine on 06 Jul 2009, 20:24:16
I don't know if you have updated the first post with the new version. But with the JIP-friendly init from the previous test run we did, I would say this mission is just about ready for review.
Title: Re: [SP/COOP/ADDON-FREE] 1-6 Behind Enemy Lines (0.90 BETA)
Post by: laggy on 07 Jul 2009, 00:15:01
Just touching up some more stuff, I would say a couple of days  :D

EDIT: Mission updated to version 0.92
Title: Re: [SP/COOP/ADDON-FREE] 1-6 Behind Enemy Lines (0.92 BETA)
Post by: nominesine on 12 Jul 2009, 03:24:56
Downloaded and tried as single player. It still works as it should. About the lag issue: I also experienced severe lag after I completed half of the mission. But this isalso when I reach the heavily forrested regions in southern Chernarus, so I'm not sure it's connected to the mission or any of the modules. My low end computer can handle the northern part of Chernarus pretty well, but becomes laggy as hell (pun intended) in the southern parts.
Title: Re: [SP/COOP/ADDON-FREE] 1-6 Behind Enemy Lines (0.92 BETA)
Post by: johnnyboy on 12 Jul 2009, 06:22:11
Be careful what you wish for...you might get it!   :D

Gave it another whirl, and had to laugh at myself.  You fixed me good for complaining about lack of action!  Now I have a hard time making a hundred yards from the crash site!

Love the improvements though.  Here's my feedback.

1. In-game voices great.  Lamenting loss of sarge, dogs, etc., all very good for immersion and not over done.  Gotta love smartass and caveman!

2. In my previous test I never caught on that  the dogs were tracking us...I thought it was overuse of ambient dog barking LOL.   Now I get it (and you also have dialogue to that effect for retard players like me), and it definitely adds to the tension.   Felt damn good to finally silence one of those pesky mutts.

3. Love it that BIS provided an operational MG on the crashed chopper.   That is very cool.

4. If I waste time healing the pilot near the chopper, I will never make it more than a 100 meters from the chopper.  Too many infantry followed by technicals.

5. If I run right away, then we have a chance.  Heal the pilot later when we reach some trees to the SW or SE.  BIS AI very frustrating when you want to move fast.  They insist on covering each other and leap frogging, which is too slow when you are in a hurry.  I discovered that if you order each soldier to move to a position individually, they are much faster (probably bypasses leapfrog AI).  That ain't your fault, and this is a COOP mission.  With humans that cooperate, you have a much better chance.

6. Occasional chopper and APC are a challenge.  Best to avoid unless you can scavenge an RPG.  Many tense moments playing hide and seek (this is where BIS games shine!).

7. Stealing cars and driving fun.  Had a stranger join me for a coop and we had a beautiful 5 minute drive before running into a BMP.  Bailed and ran, but got cut down.

9.  So far, on multiple attempts, I've made it about 2/3rds of the way south.

10.  Periodically the enemy fights some other forces not too far from us.  Never actually seen them.   Are they friendly?

This is a good mission.  I just need more cooperative buddies.

Mild suggestions:

- Lighten up on enemy strength at first contact.   Too tough to get away from the crash site.  (At least for one or two humans and slow AI).

- Maybe script AI leader to give command to player leader ("I'm hit, you take over for awhile").   I had another player on leader leave the game, and then all the AI was stuck.  Once again that's not your mission's fault, but an issue with any coop mission with AI.

- Maybe run into friendly forces who will help us in some way? 

Is there an outro?  I wonder if I will ever survive long enough to find out... :)

BTW, I unPBOed your mission and the init.sqf looks very clean.  Looks like a good template for how to do a coop mission with an optional intro movie.  Plan on borrowing that!

Keep up the good work sir!
Title: Re: [SP/COOP/ADDON-FREE] 1-6 Behind Enemy Lines (0.92 BETA)
Post by: nominesine on 12 Jul 2009, 18:00:32
No outro shown on mission completion. Meaning I made it back to base  :D

I tested it again to nail down the lag issue we discussed earlier. I now have two theories:

1) The lag is caused by the heavy vegetation in southern Chernarus. Hence it's nothing you can do, unless you move your mision to a different location. But please don't do that. For high end users this shouldn't be a problem and we lw enders will just have to wait for a patch to solve our problems.
 ;)

2) According to the Biki description, the ACM does not clean up after itself, until all units in the group it was synched with is killed. Since the mission involves some serious trekking over a vast geographical area, I suspect that the map will be loaded with randomized AI forces all along your path. This would also explain why you and I encountered some serious lag past halftime.

I checked the thread over at the official forum, and no one else has mentioned the lag issue. Hence I suspect it's a low end problem only and thus not much to worry about. My first impression is still valid after several sessions: This is very good mission. I think you should put it up for review A.S.A.P. Who knows, maybe you will be the first mission maker to have an ArmA2 mission reviewed at Ofpec.

EDIT: Spell check

EDIT: @Laggy you are recieving lots of questions about the mission over at the official forums. Since you are banned there you can't access them, I assume. I directed all the curious BETA-testers here instead, since you are still abe to use this forum  ;) Hope you don't mind.
Title: Re: [SP/COOP/ADDON-FREE] 1-6 Behind Enemy Lines (0.92 BETA)
Post by: Foxtrot41 on 13 Jul 2009, 21:28:36
Hi,

I downloaded this mission today and began playing it. Really enjoying it so far. I'm not a mission scripter or whatever so I can't give any feedback on those issues but as far as the mission goes when it comes to playing it, I'm loving it.  :D

I'm having a bit of bother with it though, sort of the opposite from some of the replies here, I'm finding that I encounter OPFOR every few minutes!!. I'm sort of "leapfroging" between woodland areas and lying low when I get there, then moving on to the next but almost always the enemy rips me to pieces at some point. I'm not that far away from the crash site and what I can't understand is the AI of the OPFOR. I can have all my guys proned in an area of trees in cover and tell them to hold fire then the enemy will pass by in either technicals, on foot or in a BMP and despite me not making a noise or moving, bullets start whacking into the vegetation around me even if the OPFOR are very far away. Is this supposed to happen?. I thought the whole idea was to be "stealthy" and take your time but if the enemy can hear you blink from a mile away then what's the point....lol..??!!. It should be pointed out that I am only playing this mission in [SP] mode with the AI controlling my squad, I haven't tried it in Co-op mode.

Aside from getting killed lots, I really like this mission, very well done indeed!!.  :good:

*EDIT* : Scratch the above, have went back and modified my route slightly and managed to complete the mission. This has to be one of THE most atmospheric missions I have ever played.  :clap:
Title: Re: [SP/COOP/ADDON-FREE] 1-6 Behind Enemy Lines (0.92 BETA)
Post by: laggy on 17 Jul 2009, 02:30:54
@ Foxtrot41

Thanks a lot for your very positive feedback, that made the mission worth making. I'll continue working on my next mission soon after touching up the last bits on this one, so there is more coming...

@ Nominesine

Apart from mission feedback, many thanks for directing BIS forum beta testers to this site since my "ban status" over there doesn't even allow me to read that forum. A bit overkill if you ask me.

@ Johhnyboy

EDIT 1:
Quote
10.  Periodically the enemy fights some other forces not too far from us.  Never actually seen them. Are they friendly?
This is the ACM module working. I have set the modules to only spawn enemies, but for some reason it is not a 100% proof. Don't know why this happens, but I don't really see it as a problem.

END EDIT 1.

Your additional feedback is very appreciated and I'll consider some final changes. There is still no serious outro but since the mission seems to be quite hard I should probably give the players a reward after mission completion. I'm on it. Regarding the "stress factor" at the crash site it is somewhat random and I think the mission needs a real panicky start, since the continuation can/will be more "hide and seek" style. The AI behaviour is frustrating yes, but I'd just consider them as rigid/stupid soldiers that brake down in the heat of battle. Also loosing some buddies adds to the immersion I think :D

Glad you liked the init.sqf (use it if you want) it also has a JIP friendly intro solution.

@ All of you

It is very late now and I have to get some sleep, but I'll return soon...

Thanks a lot for everything so far,

Laggy

EDIT 2: Mission updated to version 0.95 (hopefully final)
Title: Re: [SP/COOP/ADDON-FREE] 1-6 Behind Enemy Lines (0.95) PLEASE REVIEW
Post by: Bahger on 24 Jul 2009, 09:03:22
I downloaded this mission on nomesine's advice and he was right; it's a good, clean, well thought-through scenario that is very enjoyable to play so far and will no doubt be of great help in teaching me the tricks of the trade in the Editor.

I like the military feel of the mission, as opposed to the over-scripted, over-dramatic spec-ops mission design in the A2 Campaign.  I like the pace and the sudden, authentic transitions from routine patrolling to a firefight.  As in most good sandbox games, the squad AI performs better when the mission conception and design is sound and in this respect you have surpassed the Campaign missions again.

I survived initial contact and, in the best moment so far, ordered the squad to attack two incoming vehicles, which they did with ruthless efficiency.  One remained operable so I mounted a wounded man as gunner and am moving south in bounding overwatch with Red Team on foot and White as the mounted team.  That .50 cal has been a great asset.  There is a friendly AAV a few miles away; not sure what this is doing behind enemy lines (SAR?) and there appears to be no way to contact it.  We don't have AT weapons so I'm not sure how to take on BMPs; I hope I can avoid them.

Very nice.

Why are you banned from the BIS forums, if you don't mind my asking?  Not trying to roil anything up, just curious.
Title: Re: [SP/COOP/ADDON-FREE] 1-6 Behind Enemy Lines (0.95) PLEASE REVIEW
Post by: laggy on 24 Jul 2009, 10:07:11
Thanks a lot for the positive feedback Bahger.

The friendly AAV is an example of the ACM module working. I have it set to only spawn enemies, but for some reason this is not 100% proof yet. Not sure if this is something I can help or only BIS. This might be the only reason for a mission update, if something can be done about it.

Quote
Why are you banned from the BIS forums, if you don't mind my asking?  Not trying to roil anything up, just curious.

Well... ehhh... :-[

All I can say is that when my creative side takes over I sometimes lose my sense of judgement. I thought I had discovered something revolutionary in ArmAII, but some people unfortunately thought it was very offensive and against their forum rules. I see it is a big misunderstanding and there are no hard feelings from my end.

Laggy

EDIT: I believe this mission is finished. However, once the First Aid Module is "bug free" it will be included in the mission. Right now (in ArmAII version 1.02) the module is so full of bugs that the annoyances overcome the otherwise fantastic gameplay elements.
Title: Re: [SP/COOP/ADDON-FREE] 1-6 Behind Enemy Lines (0.95) PLEASE REVIEW
Post by: Bahger on 25 Jul 2009, 02:28:43
Quote
I believe this mission is finished. However, once the First Aid Module is "bug free" it will be included in the mission. Right now (in ArmAII version 1.02) the module is so full of bugs that the annoyances overcome the otherwise fantastic gameplay elements.

Ain't that the truth...
Title: Re: [SP/COOP/ADDON-FREE] 1-6 Behind Enemy Lines (0.95) PLEASE REVIEW
Post by: kju on 25 Jul 2009, 07:43:00
So what is it?

For MP most modules are unfortunately more or less completely dysfunctional,
either after respawn or JIP or cause a heavy performance impact on the server.
Title: Re: [SP/COOP/ADDON-FREE] 1-6 Behind Enemy Lines (0.95) PLEASE REVIEW
Post by: laggy on 25 Jul 2009, 12:02:16
Well, me and nominesine have been playing the campaign together in MP lately and because of the First Aid Module bugs we had to restart this very long and quite hard mission (Razor Two) several times.

It happened so many times that we got tired of retrying and we where quite pissed (pardon my french), even though being BIS game veterans we are quite forgiving when it comes to bugs, simply because the gameplay and atmosphere is so phenomenal.

We finally decided to cheat our way out (by endmission) which made us miss the crescendo of that mission, as in capturing Bardak... What a bummer.

These are bug examples:

-Seriously wounded in a vehicle - No way to get out or get help, stuck in vehicle... restart necessary.
-When performing first aid - helping player got stuck in medic animation and wounded never healed... restart.
-After stuck medic player disconnected, JIPd and tried other group members they all got stuck... restart.

These are all we've encountered so far, but there might be more.
All these bugs unfortunately make the First Aid Module useless in ArmAII version 1.02.
Sad, because when it works it does a lot for the immersion.

EDIT: One possible bug related to the ACM module found in the mission. This is easily fixable and will be done in 0.96 version.
Title: Re: [SP/COOP/ADDON-FREE] 1-6 Behind Enemy Lines (0.95) PLEASE REVIEW
Post by: Punisher5555 on 21 Aug 2009, 15:58:43
Easiest mission ever made!!!!

All you have to do is retreat to the woods, shoot a couple of baddies and then wait for the bus to come down the road! Pop a couple of rounds at him to make him stop. Then tell everyone to load up.

The bus driver drove me to my base. Nobody killed or hurt. Nice relaxing ride.

If he doesn't drive you all the way then you can take over and drive the rest.
Title: Re: [SP/COOP/ADDON-FREE] 1-6 Behind Enemy Lines (0.95) PLEASE REVIEW
Post by: johnnyboy on 22 Aug 2009, 19:29:10
Too funny.  Just take the bus!

Title: Re: [SP/COOP/ADDON-FREE] 1-6 Behind Enemy Lines (0.95) PLEASE REVIEW
Post by: laggy on 23 Aug 2009, 18:53:31
Easiest mission ever made!!!!

All you have to do is retreat to the woods, shoot a couple of baddies and then wait for the bus to come down the road! Pop a couple of rounds at him to make him stop. Then tell everyone to load up.

The bus driver drove me to my base. Nobody killed or hurt. Nice relaxing ride.

If he doesn't drive you all the way then you can take over and drive the rest.


 :D Haha!!!

Didn't think it was that easy to force a bus driver into submission.
Very lucky shot though, since that is very random.
Thanks for the heads up, might change that possibility.

Laggy
Title: Re: [SP/COOP/ADDON-FREE] 1-6 Behind Enemy Lines (0.95) PLEASE REVIEW
Post by: hoz on 24 Aug 2009, 16:40:02
We gave this another go last night. The latest version .95. Still we are having a hard time enjoying this mission. The walk seems to take for ever, and alot of the time we are finding basically walking straight south(down the middle just staying off the roads), we have met up with a maximum of 20 opposing forces and 2 dogs. Basically we can finish the mission each time we try it.  but often give up after walking for a half hour with not seeing any units.

 I like the dogs, and the concept but its just not doing anything to want us to play it over and over.

One thing you might want to look at is the team switch dialog in MP. Wipers mission uses this and its a pretty cool option for group respawn.

Lastly the I hate the crow and there are a couple of spectating options out there now, you should really consider switching to one.
Title: Re: [SP/COOP/ADDON-FREE] 1-6 Behind Enemy Lines (0.95) PLEASE REVIEW
Post by: laggy on 25 Aug 2009, 16:14:01
Thanks for the feedback Hoz,

It's weird that you find the mission uneventful, since when me and nominesine play it, we have rarely succeeded, same thing with many other beta testers as well.

Did you host or play on a dedi? - We have always played it as hosted MP, maybe it handles different.
Did you disable the AI? - The mission needs to be played with ALL characters (stated in description).
Was your leader a human player?

The mission is quite simple in its structure, so I doubt there are any scripting errors, from my part.
Maybe the modules need to be handled different on a dedi.

If you have time maybe you could describe your setup/experience (server, AI or not, number of players, dogs able to track you down?, route etc.).

Like I said, it's weird that you find it uneventful, my experience is that the mission is too difficult.
This discrepancy is something I really want to fix of course.
What you describe is a mystery to me.

Cheers,

Laggy
Title: Re: [SP/COOP/ADDON-FREE] 1-6 Behind Enemy Lines (0.95) PLEASE REVIEW
Post by: JamesF1 on 25 Aug 2009, 16:49:46
My squad tried this out the other night... and it was even less eventful than hoz's experience, I reckon.  We ran it on our dedicated server, with AI enabled, etc, etc.  We basically ran South for the whole time, player as leader, and encountered 8 guys (0 dogs), 1 BMP (which drove right past us), 2 Technicals (which also drove right past us), and two guys when we reached the USMC base.

Aside from it being simple, the mission wouldn't complete... I figure we must have lost an AI somewhere en-route, or something?

Don't get me wrong, the idea, etc. are great... but we just didn't feel challenged by it :(
Title: Re: [SP/COOP/ADDON-FREE] 1-6 Behind Enemy Lines (0.95) PLEASE REVIEW
Post by: laggy on 25 Aug 2009, 17:01:45
Thanks JamesF1,

Yes I suspect there is something with the ACM on a dedi.
Have asked around, waiting for feedback.
Very annoying  >:(
This mission works perfectly as hosted, and the scripting is limited, so probably no errors.

Laggy
Title: Re: [SP/COOP/ADDON-FREE] 1-6 Behind Enemy Lines (0.95) PLEASE REVIEW
Post by: hoz on 25 Aug 2009, 17:09:21
We also play on a dedicated server and james experience sounds alot like ours and we've played it a few times..  Perhaps some of your scripts aren't running properly on a dedicated server. Or maybe its the modules. Either way its been easy and pretty much uneventful.  You can run the dedicated server right on your same machine to test.
Title: Re: [SP/COOP/ADDON-FREE] 1-6 Behind Enemy Lines (0.95) STILL BETA
Post by: laggy on 27 Aug 2009, 18:23:15
Since the mission doesn't seem to work as intended on a dedicated server I have put the "please review" on hold.

The problems are related to maybe some scripts, but most likely the modules.

For those of you who have tried it I have some questions that I hope you will answer:

1- Was the mission very hard/action packed or too easy/boring?
2- Did you play as SP, hosted MP or on dedicated server?

Sorry for any inconveniences and thanks for your patience.

Laggy
Title: Re: [SP/COOP/ADDON-FREE] 1-6 Behind Enemy Lines (0.95) STILL BETA
Post by: hoz on 27 Aug 2009, 18:44:02
The newest betas include a new module.pbo not sure if this is helpful but you might want to try the new beta to see if there's a difference.
Title: Re: [SP/COOP/ADDON-FREE] 1-6 Behind Enemy Lines (0.95) STILL BETA
Post by: laggy on 27 Aug 2009, 20:37:09
Thanks mate  :good:
Title: Re: [SP/COOP/ADDON-FREE] 1-6 Behind Enemy Lines (0.95) STILL BETA
Post by: johnnyboy on 28 Aug 2009, 04:41:35
Laggy, I've played this a few times with one or two other players, on a hosted (non-dedicated server).

We find the beginning tough, usually lose more than half the squad.

But after that, if we find a vehicle, we have driven all the way to the end with no action (twice anyway).

I know the goal was to keep this completely random, but you might want to place some opfor on each of the roads south.  The exact placement and numbers in each group could be somewhat randomized to keep us guessing.
Title: Re: [SP/COOP/ADDON-FREE] 1-6 Behind Enemy Lines (0.95) STILL BETA
Post by: tcp on 28 Aug 2009, 06:24:19
I played this mission, one of the earlier versions I think, and drove through it with hardly any enemy contact. Maybe make a road block with a Dhksm UAZ so we are forced to go around only to find out the entire town is occupied. Or have one of the characters in the chopper fall out during the crash landing. Force the players to leave him since you can't find him and the enemy is closing in. When you get to US base, find out hes alive and has been sending radio / distress signals, and give the player a helicopter to go back for him. Make the players recall the position of the AA that originally shot them down and call in an actual strike on it. If they get it wrong, they might kill their buddy and mission failed or get shot down again if they missed :)
Title: Re: [SP/COOP/ADDON-FREE] 1-6 Behind Enemy Lines (0.95) STILL BETA
Post by: laggy on 29 Aug 2009, 14:59:54
Thanks Johnnyboy and tcp,

Helps my planned changes for the final release.
Guess the complete randomness is maybe too unpredictable.

When I have tested it (many times), it has mostly been too hard = All dead within 20 min.
This experience is unfortunately not shared by everyone.

I think a more steady difficulty level after the start is necessary.
Randomly placed roadblocks seems like a great idea - for vehicle stealing players.
Maybe adding an enemy helicopter that hunts you as well.
More editor placed guard groups etc.

The ACM module on dedi is another important issue that needs attention.

Thanks again all,

Laggy


Title: Re: [SP/COOP/ADDON-FREE] 1-6 Behind Enemy Lines (0.97) STILL BETA
Post by: laggy on 06 Sep 2009, 16:48:33
Mission updated to v0.97

Would love to hear if this is the final version.

Note: On my slow computer, when running a dedi parallel to client, "undefined variable" errors occur sometimes. This is because my dedi or client is to slow to get all the initiated variables. It doesn't affect the mission at all, but I would like to know if you get those reports anyway. I might have to wait a little longer in my scripts before checking for those variables. Maybe it's just my PC being overloaded, when running two ArmA2 at the same time.

Laggy
Title: Re: [SP/COOP/ADDON-FREE] 1-6 Behind Enemy Lines (0.97) STILL BETA
Post by: Wiper on 25 Sep 2009, 23:41:20
Hi Laggy

Quote
Note: On my slow computer, when running a dedi parallel to client, "undefined variable" errors occur sometimes. This is because my dedi or client is to slow to get all the initiated variables. It doesn't affect the mission at all, but I would like to know if you get those reports anyway. I might have to wait a little longer in my scripts before checking for those variables.

If you mean the undefined TrackDog messages, I got them too.

But as soon as I replaced the waits with
Code: [Select]
@ ! isNil "trackDog1" (for example)
the scripts seem to wait correctly without error messages ;)

good luck
Title: Re: [SP/COOP/ADDON-FREE] 1-6 Behind Enemy Lines (0.97) STILL BETA
Post by: laggy on 27 Sep 2009, 00:39:56
EDIT: Mission updated to version 0.98. Ready for review.
Anyone who now finds it too easy is either extremely lucky, great at ArmA2 or CRAZY  ;)


Thanks Wiper,

I would like my mission to be "error-free", but playability and fun is highest priority.
Will dust my broom once more.

Thanks for the info,

Laggy
Title: Re: [SP/COOP/ADDON-FREE] 1-6 Behind Enemy Lines (0.98) Final?
Post by: Ebden on 06 Oct 2009, 16:16:49
I putzed just for a skim of the map yesterday, certainly nothing well-focused (evidenced by my first of two observations, below).

-When all characters are either killed or injured, I was locked out of ARMA2 commands, ending the match, etc.  I had to force-quit.

-The intro, though I like how you set up the story, has a very dissapointing rocket-and-explosion sound.  Any different audio to insert for those effects?  I anticipated something that helps the player's immersion level.  Example; Allow a brief rise in rocket volume as it approaches the huey, followed immediately by a dramatic, and very loud, explosion (wrenching metal, movie-level fireball/explosion sounds, you've seen the type).  Although the final view of the huey is 3rd person, the audio should be in first-person (rocket approaching the character, not watching it happen).  Therefore, you could integrate a similar danger-close ringing (ex. tank rounds in game) immediately after the explosion before fading audio and bringing up video of the crashed huey a moment later.  All this should evolve fast...approaching rocket audio  loud rocket wooshmetaltearingexplosiontankringingsilence   silence  silencelightreturns to downed huey.
Title: Re: [SP/COOP/ADDON-FREE] 1-6 Behind Enemy Lines (0.98) Final?
Post by: hoz on 11 Oct 2009, 18:28:49
We ran through this mission again the other day... II always get some weird looks when I put this mission up because all everyone remembers is that its pretty boring. We are still having the same issues where we run for miles never coming across anything much in the way of the battle and as always we give up after we encounter the helo which is usually ends in just death for us so we give up. No one wants to do that walk again heheh. If its running better in SP mode we could move the mission to the SP forum and then have it looked at and reviewed there. I don't think I could give it the glowing review it could very well deserve.

I hope this doesn't deter you too much. You're arma missions were simply wonderful and inspiring and looking forward to more of your work in arma2.
Title: Re: [SP/COOP/ADDON-FREE] 1-6 Behind Enemy Lines (0.98) Final?
Post by: laggy on 12 Oct 2009, 20:21:45
Thanks for the honest  :weeping: feedback Hoz,

I'm stumped, I have tried this soooooo many times (including on dedi) and it is a killer 90% of the time.

I can't help laughing in confusion, since I have now in version 0.98 made the mission impossible, at least for me and my mates. We simply can't even get away from the dog teams.

I have no idea what's making it boring for you when you play it.

Important questions:

-Do you disable the AI ? That's a big NoNo in this mission - stated in the lobby description.
-Which version if you please?
-Which tactic?



Otherwise:

Where you 6 human players?
Could it have anything to do with your server settings?

When I play it on a dedi, it is not configured (raw and untouched - only way to make it not crash for me).

There has to be something fundamentally wrong here, and I refuse to let the MP aspect pass.  :D
This can/must be solved, you and JamesF1 are the only ones that have found this mission uneventful so far. The mission is designed to be played with ALL group members present, AI or human players, this is very important.

Thanks again,

Laggy
Title: Re: [SP/COOP/ADDON-FREE] 1-6 Behind Enemy Lines (0.98) Final?
Post by: hoz on 12 Oct 2009, 21:43:30
We don't disable the AI those are our respawn positions.
were running 1.04
Basically we head directly south. running as fast as we can go, stopping to shoot the occasional dog. :)

our server works good no crashing issues.
Usually we play 3 - 4 humans.. well some of us are human ;)
Title: Re: [SP/COOP/ADDON-FREE] 1-6 Behind Enemy Lines (0.98) Final?
Post by: laggy on 12 Oct 2009, 22:17:07
Mission version 0.98?
Title: Re: [SP/COOP/ADDON-FREE] 1-6 Behind Enemy Lines (0.98) Final?
Post by: hoz on 12 Oct 2009, 22:18:45
Yes 0.98.  >:(
Title: Re: [SP/COOP/ADDON-FREE] 1-6 Behind Enemy Lines (0.98) Final?
Post by: laggy on 12 Oct 2009, 22:29:18
DAMNED !!!   :scratch:

Thanks for the fast response.
This is really annoying and I'm not far from becoming superstitious.
Are you sure your server isn't possessed by some peace-loving demon?

All jokes aside, I really have to solve this mystery.

The ACM works on a dedi and I have it set to intensity 1 (highest), so that should be fine.
Many other editor placed groups patrol randomly, with a descent chance of coming your way.
BMP and other vehicles on guard WPs.
Three dog-tracking groups are on your trail from the start too.

I just can't see what I could have missed  :no:

Concerned Laggy
Title: Re: [SP/COOP/ADDON-FREE] 1-6 Behind Enemy Lines (0.98) Final?
Post by: hoz on 12 Oct 2009, 22:31:57
Have you tried running directly south without stopping? :D
Title: Re: [SP/COOP/ADDON-FREE] 1-6 Behind Enemy Lines (0.98) Final?
Post by: laggy on 12 Oct 2009, 22:40:22
No, but my guess is that your unexpected super-high speed south from the very start is my only mission flaw.

If I put an obstacle there, I bet you'll be dead meat  :D

I dare you to try version 0.99, coming soon.

One last MP shot, then I give up and retire the mission to SP.

Are you in for the challenge Hoz?  :cool2:

Cheers
Title: Re: [SP/COOP/ADDON-FREE] 1-6 Behind Enemy Lines (0.98) Final?
Post by: hoz on 12 Oct 2009, 23:09:12
Don't give up on the MP mission building! Like i said some of you're arma missions were very entertaining. We'll give it another shot but it may take some time as I have a few things keeping me busy.
Title: Re: [SP/COOP/ADDON-FREE] 1-6 Behind Enemy Lines (0.98) Final?
Post by: laggy on 12 Oct 2009, 23:38:19
Sounds great Hoz,

I'm patient  ;)

Will make it flawless until then, version 0.99 is the last.

Laggy

EDIT: There might be a problem with the tracking scripts on dedi, started a new topic in MP scripting board.
Title: Re: [SP/COOP/ADDON-FREE] 1-6 Behind Enemy Lines 1.0 (Please Review)
Post by: laggy on 01 Feb 2010, 00:19:10
Mission updated to final version.

Enjoy  :P

Laggy