Missions Depot => Mission Discussion => Topic started by: Aculaud on 04 Oct 2002, 09:20:23

Title: Would real life snipers ever carry any AT?
Post by: Aculaud on 04 Oct 2002, 09:20:23
I'm in need of more realism advice.

Would a real-life sniper team ever carry anti-tank weaponry of any sort?

I was previously under the impression that a sniper team's MO was stealth all the way, but iv been experimenting with kits and it seems like a good idea. If they do have to rock and roll, they certainly can. And you would be happy in the knowledge that you wouldnt get taken out by some APC when you were within meters of friendly territory.

But i'd still just like to know. Are there any cercumstances whatsoever when a sniper team would carry any type of anti-armor weaponry?
Title: Re:Would real life snipers ever carry any AT?
Post by: asmodeus on 04 Oct 2002, 09:49:09
Here's my opinion...

I think any anti tank weapon gives you a higher priority and thus less stealth abilities to the enemy...  (in the game)

Realistically a LAW launcher would be horizontal across your shoulder blades...  (like in Platoon, Hawkins wears it that way the whole movie and never uses it!)   ;)

Also, I think it would be perfectly fine if you had a spotter for the sniper that had anti tank capabilities, mines, satchels... ;D

Go wild I say!  There's no solid rules for this kind of thing in warfare IMO..  Snipers are more spec ops and thus more versatile and will have various different needs on different missions...

P.S.  Kaliyuga just told me that per the US Sniper Field Manual, the spotter's default loadout is an M16+M203.   ;)

Title: Re:Would real life snipers ever carry any AT?
Post by: Aculaud on 05 Oct 2002, 10:49:17
Yeah, right now my sniper team is set up with one sniper, one black op day with an M16+M203, and one black op day with an M16 and a Carl Gustav Launcher. The idea being that we obviously dont fire a shot unless we are either at the objective, or we become compromised, and if we have to, we can definitely open up and kick some.

Iv tested this concept with me as the sniper against two eastern infantry groups and one BMP, all coming at us at once, and we can easily defend ourselves from everything.

So at this point, i basically just need to know if a sniper team's kit selection is flexible enough to allow that sort of firepower.

And yeah, i know there are no limits in the game to what you can do, i just like to go fro realism above all else whenever i can ;)
Title: Re:Would real life snipers ever carry any AT?
Post by: @cero on 06 Oct 2002, 17:45:21
The M72 LAW is really light and small, wen you want to ust it you just unfold it, that is a real life weapon, is similar to the C90 too, that could be ideal for a real life sniper team to carry in case of beeing compromised, the problem it that ingame its a lot diferent because the AI would be more prompted to detect you with such weapon cos is nothing that small ingame(as far as I know) an AT weapon in a sniper team for OFP? I would say is quihte real, just kip on trying and then beta tested in here and see what feedback you get from the comunity, it hoppefully work well, I don't know, but if it do let me know, I wouldn't mind to use this weapon load in a sniper team too ;D
Title: Re:Would real life snipers ever carry any AT?
Post by: Bosniarat on 07 Oct 2002, 17:56:07
Well Anymore the US Army, i dont know if the rest have switched, is using the AT-4 as we 11 bullet stoppers call it, or the M-136 Anti-tank Missile launcher. the 72 was more compact but lacked the penatration that the AT-4 has, and We switched. As to the Question, depends. If a sniper is part of a Ranger Group he would have the Carl to work with. but as a Sniper team they are more concerned with steath than Firepower, most of the time they carry very little. They carry mostly MRES :P so they can wait and watch their targets. the more that you carry the louder you get as a sniper will tell you. So the Answer to the question is no. They would not.
Title: Re:Would real life snipers ever carry any AT?
Post by: @cero on 07 Oct 2002, 19:48:16
That sound more knowledgable than my answer, and the bit you sed about the sniper prefering stealth than firepower is really understandable ::)how can I argue with that? If I was a sniper and I been undercover for 6 days and I notice a BMP and a infantry squad coming to my direction probably the last thing I would do is move, they probably don't know that I'm in there, and before they come in group to get me risking a nasty encounter by not knowing what they gonna come to they probably use some good firepower from a safe distance, so the point of having a TA weapon would be the same as geting a cuple of gunships scorting a BH when they pic you up back home, so yeah, it loocks like you'r right in there mate ;D No LAWs on snipers. ;)
Later all.
Title: Re:Would real life snipers ever carry any AT?
Post by: walker on 09 Oct 2002, 13:26:47
Hi all

An amatuers take on this; never fired a real gun in my life.

The proper anti tank weapons for a sniper would be satchel charges and mines. They are less traceable than rockets which explode with a big wush out of a launcher in a cloud of smoke, with trail of smoke leading to your launch site.

It all mitigates against a snipers chief means of protection stealth. They fire one shot and then move to a new location. No one is sure where the shot came from they disapear and do it again from somewhere else. It is a bit hard to disapear when there is a trail of smoke pointing right at you.

Kind Regards walker
Title: Re:Would real life snipers ever carry any AT?
Post by: Phantom on 12 Oct 2002, 06:15:35
Snipers are more spec ops

Sorry mate but they're not, yes they do have a high level of training with their rifles and their fieldcraft, that doesn't make them Special Forces. Talk to people in Special Forces and they won't tel you that a Sniper is part of the SpecOps community. If they're a Sniper in a Special Forces Regiment or something like that, then of course they are, but otherwise they're just a Sniper.

Title: Re:Would real life snipers ever carry any AT?
Post by: Ferret Fangs on 12 Oct 2002, 07:11:48
If you are of the mind that the US Marines are elite forces of a sort, and the Marine Scout Sniper are among the most highly skilled soldiers in that force, then the argument might be made that they are special forces.
Considering their secretive operating procedures, independence from command, insertion/extraction methods, equipment and weapons choice, and the fact they are tasked directly from/representatives of headquarters- all makes them special forces in my book.
Title: Re:Would real life snipers ever carry any AT?
Post by: Phantom on 13 Oct 2002, 05:40:24
It's fine to have an opinion of the Marines as elite forces, but they're not as far as I know the elite of the US forces are the 160th SOAR, SOFD-Delta and the Navy SEALs. I find it hard to believe that a person who's in the military would consider the Marine Scout Sniper's Special Forces, because they're not, so like I said, they can have all the control over their misions they want, and all the skill in the world, but they're not officially Special Forces as far as I know. If you think that they deserve to be Special Forces in "your book", go right ahead, but having an opinion of them as Special Forces makes no difference to the facts.

Title: Re:Would real life snipers ever carry any AT?
Post by: Ferret Fangs on 13 Oct 2002, 09:08:57
Well, Ok mate.
Granted, I don't think the "average" US Marine is an "Official" elite force... unless you compare them to just about any other force that does the same job from any other country.
But let's get back to the subject at hand...
I have read many books on the subject, have served in the military, and come from a long, distinguished line of soldiers. I understand the difference between "Official" SPECOPS units as opposed to unofficial ones, and know their names as well.
But I think we all realise there is much more to an unconventional warfare unit than a name or designation. It's about tactics and employment of a particular unit, not what you call them or some other identifier, like a badge or beret.
What makes them any less special for you? It's not enough to be inserted by a DAP Pave Hawk behind enemy lines, at O-dark-thirty hours, to crawl like a snake across kilometers of open ground, to silently kill a trooper with a garrote or K-bar, to kill a specific target with a single well placed shot, and go through all of the above- AGAIN- while evading a now alert enemy intent on catching you, interogating you, and finally killing you in a very painful manner, because you are too dangerous to ever release back to the enemy. Does this sound like something just any soldier can do? I'll tell you something else, in "Official" elite units such as the ones you mentioned above, only their best candidates are selected for either medic, or, you guessed it- SNIPERS. That's because it takes a special kind of man to do the job.
I don't know what you do in the service, or if you ever served, but if you did anything like what I've described, then I'd have to say that was fairly special.
Title: Re:Would real life snipers ever carry any AT?
Post by: Black_Feather on 14 Oct 2002, 02:27:30
anyway back on topic, would a sniper ever carry any AT?
Title: Re:Would real life snipers ever carry any AT?
Post by: Messiah on 14 Oct 2002, 02:34:56
i think we should stary away from realism here and think what this is for...

this is a mission, for a game. This mission is meant to be fun and is not meant to be extremely hard.

now - give the guy AT if you reckon hes gonna need it more than once...

but IMHO u shud do without - there is nothing more tense than hiding in a bush as a T72 rolls past - or at a puch maybe a LAW with one rocket...

on a realism point of view - dont bother about realism too much - makes like harder - the playablility of the mission is more important... i say go for no LAW - but give the guy the option to gun down a RPG guy - then its all fair yeah?
Title: Re:Would real life snipers ever carry any AT?
Post by: Captain Winters on 14 Oct 2002, 05:02:38
I would say no because that useally the job of the rifleman a sniper is nearly alaways with
Title: Re:Would real life snipers ever carry any AT?
Post by: Skaven on 14 Oct 2002, 15:24:44
This is interesting LOL  ;D
Well I've served on the Portuguese Special Forces not much time but time enough  ;D , and my small experience tells me that it makes no sense to give an AT to a Sniper specially because of two things, the Sniper would loose a lot of his Stealth/Camouflage ability, and specially he would have a lot of height in his back,and having a slow sniper just doesn't help. ;D
Nevertheless and as mentioned, in a mission for the game, well why not giving a Sniper an AT weapon? It may be handy, and he won't loose his camouflage (as long as you don't fire the AT  ;D ) and he won't be slower so why not?  ;D
Title: Re:Would real life snipers ever carry any AT?
Post by: 1B1KSniper on 14 Oct 2002, 17:12:33
I think it would depend on  the mission...  If the sniper has been there long enough he might have some other weapons stashed around the place.  If you take out a patrol of enemy soldiers you would take their weapons wouldn't you?  After all, a sniper rifle is good for engaging from a distance but up close... you need fire power like you'd get with an assault rifle.
So place a camouflaged ammo box nearby with an AT launcher and maybe some assault rifles.   But if you had just been inserted then you would only have your weapons that you would have been given for your insertion.  It all depends on the mission.
That's my two cents worth...
Your choice.
Title: Re:Would real life snipers ever carry any AT?
Post by: Jakerod on 15 Oct 2002, 04:50:34
You dont need to have it totally realistic.... When i want to have something that aint realistic i make something up... like if i dont want there to be air support and their normally would  be... i would say.... all the A-10s are out of action because the wheels fell off and we cant find any replacements ;D ...i wouldnt say that exactly but i would say something that would cause them to be out of the fight like no fuel or no ammo, or they are attacking something else right now.
Title: Re:Would real life snipers ever carry any AT?
Post by: registered_fugitiv on 30 Oct 2002, 01:45:17
In my knowlage of snipers i know they themselfs or in a team
(snipers work in pairs most ussually) and as for ATs they dont use them because like sum ppl have said it effects speed, camoflage and stealth
go for realism
Title: Re:Would real life snipers ever carry any AT?
Post by: Marsuitor on 01 Nov 2002, 05:11:38
@ 1B1K,
Unless something something has gone terribly wrong, one would not rely on scavenging weapons from dead adversaries... I don't know about US/UK or whoever else's SOP, but the Norwegian one is that the sniper himself in the pair would carry a normal assault rifle, or MP5 in addition to the sniper rifle. The simple reason being that if you get bumped you'll want to lay down enough fire to eventually (and hopefully) break contact and get away. And having one man yanking a bolt won't excactly contribute to that...

Also if you're physically fit enough to be a sniper, you're sure as hell fit enough to have a 2.5kg and 70cm long LAW strapped to yourself, in addition to your uniform, rifle, webgear and bergen. Even though you, as a sniper, should be "invisible" and all the rest, you can't help having old Murphy around. Things can go FUBAR no matter how much training and preperations you've done beforehand.
The bottom line being, do your packing to be able to counter a worst case scenario. All within reasonable limits, of course. If all goes wrong and you're surrounded by a company of enemy infantry, your skullfucked no matter what.

Cheers! ;)
Title: Re:Would real life snipers ever carry any AT?
Post by: Liquid_Silence on 26 Nov 2002, 12:37:24
Well, you could class the M82A1 (Barret .50 cal) as a semi-AT weapon, as it can take down lightly armoured vehicles.

A sniper who selectively targets a tank's sensor equipment (ond assorted other vunerable bits) can disable even an Abrams, so a standard SWS can be used in to do some damage to a tank. I don't think that this is viable in OFP at this point though.

I think that the best idea would be to take one of the Barret M82A1 addons out there (or make a new one) and make it a secondary weapon, not a primary. This would allow a sniper to have some anti-vehicle capability, while adding the ability to engage at extreme range.

An interesting effect of this would be the ability to take an assault rifle, and a sniper rifle, like Marsuitor suggested. This isn't quite as cheesy as it sounds, as the M82 is not really useful against infantry except at extreme range, when you can't hit with a normal rifle, due to it's low rate of fire, and massive recoil.

[Off Topic...]

On snipers being Special Forces:

Generally a sniper in a normal infantry unit is called a Designated Marksman. These snipers don't use as many unconventional warfare tactics as those snipers who operate in smaller groups. Any sniper operating in a small group (e.g. Sniper/Spotter) is going to have to use more UW than one backed up by an infantry squad.

MEU's are generally Special Operations Capable, which means that they are just as much a part of the "SpecOps" community as the SEALs etc...Marine forces are labelled SOC and not Special Forces, due to the fact that SOCOM doesn't have control of them.

[Note: The status of Force Recon as Special Forces may become official if the Marines contribute to SOCOM.]

[And this next bit is nice :)]

Shit: Through the eyes of the Military

*An Army grunt stands in the rain with a 35 pound pack on his back, 15 lb. weapon in hand, after having marched 12 miles, and says, "This is shit!"

*An Army Airborne Ranger stands in the rain with a 45 lb. pack on his back, weapon in hand, after having jumped from an airplane and marched 18 miles, and says with a smile, "This is good shit!"

*A Navy SEAL lies in the mud, 55 LB pack on his back, weapon in hand, after swimming 10 miles to shore, crawling through a swamp and marching 25 miles at night past the enemy positions, says with a grin, "This really is great shit."

*A Marine Scout/Sniper, up to his nose in the stinking, bug-infested mud of a swamp with a 65 LB pack on his back and a weapon in both hands after jumping from an aircraft at high altitude, into the ocean, swimming 12 miles to the shore, killing several alligators to enter the swamp, then stalking 30 miles through the brush to an FFP, says, "I love this shit."

*The Air Force NCO sits in an easy chair in an air conditioned, carpeted office and says, "My e-mail's out? What kind of shit is this?"

 -> www.marinescoutsniper.com

And always remember: There is a sign at the USMC sniper school that reads "The average rounds expended per kill with the M16 in Vietnam was 50,000. Snipers averaged 1.3 rounds. The cost difference was $2300 v. 27 cents."

:wave: Liquid_Silence Out...