OFPEC Forum
Editors Depot - Mission Editing and Scripting => OFP - Editing/Scripting General => Topic started by: NightJay0044 on 25 Sep 2005, 01:26:00
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Okay here's my situation.
I have a mission idea,
Idea turns into more detail,
I open up the editor,
I start to think about how I want the mission,
then, i have troubles deciding on where to put the soldiers. I'm not really sure on good spots. Basically I have troubles creating the mission from beginning to end, and I've created missions before obviously.
Any idea's or help, please reply?
:noo:
:hmm:
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goto BIS forums, they are used to this sort of post
If this is a seriouis post then:
Play another game for a month, take a rest from OFP & scripting then you may find your motivation returns and with it your ability to create more missions
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NightJay, I know exactly what you mean. It used to happen to me too.
It took me a long time to figure what the problem is and its this: you are stuck at a non-existant level of detail. When you are thinking about a mission, only certain levels of detail can actually exist in any meaningful way.
For example, "I want some infantry to attack Goisse" is a meaningful level of detail: it is something which you could carry out. "I want to put a sniper in that bush" is a meaningful level of detail. However, "I want to put some machine gunners defending the town from attack from the west" is NOT a meaningful level of detail.
Why not? It looks perfectly reasonable on the page or in your head. What's the difference between it and the first or second examples?
Well the second is easy to achieve - that is very precise. The first is also fairly easy to achieve - it is very vague. But the third is somewhere in between. It begs too many questions. Where are the gunners going to go - in which bushes? Are there even bushes for them to go in? What are the fields of fire like from those bushes, do they make any sense? What about their flanks? And so on.
What's happening is that there is a flaw in your mission design technique. You are thinking "I'm going to make a mission where some infantry attack Goisse" which is a perfectly sound idea. You then lie in bed and think "I'll have some machine gunners defending the west, and a BMP defending the south, and a couple of snipers defending the north, and leave the east a bit vulnerable." And then you think "Well where are the machine gunners going to go? Well I'll have to look at the map first and see".
The correct technique is to lie in bed thinking about the circumstances and forces available to the local commander. "Well the defenders have only recently taken the town so they are a front line unit: lots of good weapons and highly skilled soldiers, but probably a bit understrength because of casualties. Not much in the way of tents, but probably a few sandbags.
Then, in the morning, you open the map and Preview the mission, with a player unit and nothing else. Walk around Goisse imagining that you are the local commander. You know roughly what forces you will have (because you decided that in bed last night) so you can say "right, machine gunner in that bush. Line of sandbags there with 2 soldiers behind it" and so on.
In other words, do the design in your head that can best be done there (story, background, circumstances, etc) and design on the ground the things that can best be done there (unit placement, angles of attack and so on.)
Hope that helps.
PS - two specific tips. Firstly, never stare at the Mission Editor screen trying to decide what to do. Preview the mission and get on to the ground. Secondly, when you place a unit, always make it playable. Preview the mission and test the spot, then think "where would I rather be?" and run around a bit. The Mission Editor screen is for creating units, and moving them to the right place once you've decided where that is. You can't tell where a unit should be just by looking at the map.
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Terox~
Thanks for your tip, that might be a consideration. People might get sick of OFP and want a change, but I'm not sure if that's my case.
MacGuba~
Hi, yeah that's puts into sense with what I mean. That is what I do a lot of the time, I sit there and stare at the editors screen, that white blury thing, lol. I sometimes preview the mission, but I dont think enough. Yeah I probably need to also step away and think more about it then to just sit there and stare at the PC, trying to decide okay where should I put these guys or these tanks etc.
Although some people might have no problem doing that. But this is my deal so I have to find a way around it. Now with your machine gunners example, I could just place them down, and preview it and look to see if that's a good place for them too be. Your right though, you should consider the meaningful level of detail.
Meaningful level of detail, you mean where you place a unit, and then the enemy unit and then you think, is this right, should it be harder or should I put a differnt kind of soldier on the map, instead of just the plain boring M16 or AK47?
Yes your info helped a lot, I'll give this stuff a try. So if you could reply with the above question I asked about meaningful detail, that would be cool, thanks all..
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"Mission where infantry attack Goisse" - Meaningful. You can create a mission like this.
"Place a prone sniper in bush object 1234 facing 045 degrees" - Meaningful because you can do it.
"Put some machine gunners defending the town from the west" - Not meaningful because you have no idea whether it makes sense or not. You need to do some research on the map and on the ground before you discover if it makes any sense. (Maybe there are no bushes for them to hide in. Maybe the ground slopes away so they can't see anything. Maybe the enemy will attack with armour from that direction and they should be RPG loons.)
There are no hard and fast distinctions here. This is just one way of considering the mission creation process.
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hey I've had that before, thought it was just me
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pretty much everyone has it ive had it all the time i dont like starting missions from scratch but i dont mind editing one wich is almost finished also fly in chopers over the ground and thats also good to help place tanks put them where its hardest for a chopper to attack.
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It's common problem in every single art form (=complex creating process)...
Musicians, lyrics, writers, painters (=art), etc do experience the same...
I myself have had a (music) composers block for years now, and it's getting pretty annoying by now... >:(
I've had mission makers block all the time I think :P
Two release worthy missions in 4-5 years...
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Yeah I've currently got this. You want to create a great mission for people to beta but my mind just goes blank. I think after the unsung release i need a few months R n R.
Or i'll just lay in bed and think like mac said :P
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I hear what you all are saying. When BIS people make there missions, or who ever makes them, they always know what's good and what's not. You have to wonder how they do it, and make all those missions, and still can think? How do they even plan to think of a large scale campaigns or a missions that's really complex? Do they talk to some army general or something? lol, maybe not that. Well I think we all should chat on more about this and get down to the bone here, and help everyone out. What do you all say?
If so start replying, posting links for us to go to if you want to search for this topic that were in. Some questions to consider discussing about....
1) What makes a good mission?
2) What specifications do you really need for a proper attack msision, or a proper attack and defend mission and so on.
3) How do you really know where to place soldiers, I mean war can go in any direction.
4) is it really possible for 1 black op against 80 troops and 20 tanks?
Questions like those..Okay that's enough for me now..
;D
:o
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I would think they have the campaign design already in their head. Then they simply make missions to fit that general idea.
I probably greatly oversimplified that, but what ever ::)
What makes a good mission?
I'd say replayability. Also, no bugs goes a long way to making a mission good. :P And don't forget about realism. 1 squad taking over a whole island, or 1 black-op destroying a whole company of tanks, isn't that realistic. I personally prefer those missions that are realistic. Not to say unrealistic missions can't be fun.
What specifications do you really need for a proper attack msision, or a proper attack and defend mission and so on.
Not too sure what you mean here...
How do you really know where to place soldiers, I mean war can go in any direction.
Every battlefield has a front. Usually troops are placed to that they can respond to a dedicated attack from the front. Why place your troops facing west if the front is to the east?
is it really possible for 1 black op against 80 troops and 20 tanks?
See my comment on realistic missions ;D
-Student Pilot
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keep in mind,nightjay, that bis made the islands along with the campaign, they had everything planned out, and made the islands for what they were doing, they didn't find the right places, they made them
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keep in mind,nightjay, that bis made the islands along with the campaign, they had everything planned out, and made the islands for what they were doing, they didn't find the right places, they made them
Hmmm, maybe, although that's speculation ;D I'd say for a guess that they had a whole team working on the campaigns (maybe between 3 and 8 or so ppl). Keep in mind that a game enigne and maps are one thing, but the campaign is a major part of what the game gets judged on when it comes out, 'coz that's what reviewers play (or sometimes they play a pre-released version). In short, they will have put a lot of resources into the campaigns and missions, in terms of time and money. Money! That's also a big motivator
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Yes okay, realism makes sense in making missions. Like come on get real, 1 black Op against a whole Russians Army. Although it is possible in OFP, I've pretty much done that before.
;D
:o
Anyway, I found a cool site that gives step by step info on tutorials on mission making and so on, it's a pretty good idea and deal they have there. Here is the link.
http://www.3dactionplanet.com/flashpoint/Tutor_Contents.htm (http://www.3dactionplanet.com/flashpoint/Tutor_Contents.htm)
What does everyone think of that step by step mission making process? I think that's pretty good. You know modify weather, time etc first, units next, waypoints next, and so on......
And in mission editing, isn't there a way to get around external scripting, with only using "scripting commands" in the init fields, condition fields etc?
Okay lets say this editing block for example:
Lets say you are a squad attacking an enemy Russian town. The first step would be to probably place the Russian Soldiers first, that's what I usually try and do. What if you start placing the Russian soldiers, and you go, okay North position of the town is crapy, now try NE, okay that's crapy, now try E, okay that's crapy, and so on, what if you get to that point in all of the directions of the defenders, which are the Russians?
Keep the ideas flowing everyone, we should break this thread and pull all of our thoughts into one and we can make great missions that we want..
;D
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good unit placement is a must have at first glance it loooks like a small infantry squad once you are detected it turns to about 20 soldiers
unit placement can be difficult since the mission isnt always played how you want them to play it
i want the player to come from the east they flank the base and come in fom the west now they can see all the AI that were meant to be un seen until the player is detected so it turns a bit easier for them thats why Nogova is good since you can put men in the buildings
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What makes a good mission?
Start with this tutorial. (http://www.ofpec.com/editors/resource_view.php?id=68) Read it each day for a week until it is engraved on your heart. It doesn't mean you'll make great missions, but it does mean you won't make bad ones.
The fundamental point in creating a good mission is exactly the same in creating a good novel: you must cause the player to "suspend his disbelief." (The player/reader doesn't believe what's happening in the mission/book is real, because he knows intellectually that it is a work of fiction. In order to enjoy the work of fiction, he temporarily suspends this disbelief, so that he get right into the mission/book and enjoy it thoroughly. The mission/book creator must do everything possible to help the player/reader achieve that suspension of disbelief.)
This is where talk of 'realism' comes from: the more realistic something is, the more believable it is. And that's why I'm constantly banging on about how you should Preview the mission, imagine that you are the commander, and place your units/static objects accordingly. You want a realistic mission? Well what would the defensive commander do? He'd walk around the village saying "hosptial here ... ammo dump there .... store the vehicles behind that barn ... yes we'll have a machine gun nest here ..... some sandbags and RPGs there ..." and so on. (Yes I know some of that would be subcontracted to his staff and subordinates, but you take my point.)
Reality on its own of course is insufficient: even detrimental. You need a good story. A sound plot with a beginning, middle and end. A powerful sense of place and time. Strong characters. If your mission isn't going to make a good short story, it isn't going to make a good mission. That's why good Intros and Briefings are so important - that's where you introduce the story, and indeed, tell much of it.
The CWC campaign wrote itself becuase there was so much that had to be done to introduce the player to various aspects of the game. Different weapons, driving vehicles, commanding tanks, flying planes, commanding a group ... half the missions were really just training missions. That's parly why Resistance was a much better campaign, there was more time for genuine story.
If you are stuck for mission ideas, read some military history. There are tens of thousands of real historical actions that would make a sound basis for an OFP mission. OFP is very flexible so you can transform almost every detail - the historical thing need only be a starting point. You don't have to do a re-creation.
And in mission editing, isn't there a way to get around external scripting, with only using "scripting commands" in the init fields, condition fields etc?
Most BIS missions don't use script files. However, scripting is a very powerful tool: and if you want to make good missions you'll need to use every tool available to you. Why would you want to "get around" external scripting? It is true you can do some stuff in init fields and so on, but its very limited.
The first step would be to probably place the Russian Soldiers first, that's what I usually try and do.
Wrong. That's about 23rd step. Start with the story in your head. Who when where why which????? What's going to be in the Intro and Briefing? Who are your main characters going to be?
Right, now get in a chopper and fly round some islands looking for a location. Having found the location, spend an afternoon exploring the area and thinking about how it will affect the plot. Adjust accordingly. Repeat. Now explore the area further away, where the attackers will be. Make similar changes. Repeat. Back to the village again and repeat.
The mission is starting to take shape now, so you can start playing and experimenting: throw some missionettes together in the area and get a good understanding of the lie of the land. It looks attractive to attack from this direction but is that really true? What is the best way to defend from the south? And so on.
Gradually, these missionettes will begin to turn into bits of your mission. You'll probably have have a dozen saved and the moment when your mission starts is the moment when you bring them all together into one mission. Now you can really spend some time on the Mission Editor map, putting things in roughly the right place and adding static objects and so on. Then a few triggers. And then suddenly you have the basic outline of the mission.
Sure you can get to the basic outline part in 10 minutes by just placing some stuff in the editor straight off. That's how you make a mediocre mission.
Final point: like most things a good mission is 10% and 90% perspiration. Assuming you have school/college/job, it takes about a year to make a really good mission. If you've knocked it off in 3 months, it may be a perfectly sound mission but it isn't going to be a great one.
Oh and NightJay if you think that tutorial is good, and its not already in the Editors Depot, get the author to submit it or get his permission and submit it yourself (with him as author obviously). We want to have every good script, tutorial, function and tool that there is, bar none.
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Couldn't of said it better myself Macca ;)
New mission makers take note, even I learned a few new things from this. :o
:P
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and me. This could be a good tutorial its made me think differently when making missions already
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MacGuba~
Yes I get your point about realismn. Having to preview the mission and pretend your the commander in charge. You know look around the town and say, okay is it a good spot for my soldiers to gaurd here? Where would be a more vunerable spot?
Okay, kind of how I start out sometimes is. Okay I have an idea, now I should create the situation. Situation is:
An enemy officer has moved from a deserted location to a secured one. He is carrying vital information about the enemy's positions and their troops where abouts. Your mission is to find this officer, capture him and bring him back alive.
SO that's kind of sometimes how I start, and I go on trying to create the mission. Is that a good way to do it or no? When you said:
Read some military history
do you know of any good sites to go to? Should I just goto a search engine and start searching? A good point I thnk is, when you first want to create an idea for a new mission. I sometimes also start with okay, what type of soldier do I want him to be? So i say, okay I want him to be LAW soldier. So right then and there, you can say, alright now I kind of know what type mission I want. It should probably either be destroying some tanks, or supporting an infantry group who has no Rockets to destroy tanks. Kind of scenarios like that.
Then you might say, okay I want to be a sniper. Alright, well then you can choose to assassinate someone, help support another unit in need with some sniper rounds. Help protect a base from far away, hide in some kind of tree, lol although not very possible with OFP.
So when you answered my question as this:
Wrong. That's about 23rd step. Start with the story in your head. Who when where why which????? What's going to be in the Intro and Briefing? Who are your main characters going to be?
that's basically what I'm saying about the characters. Do i want him to be a sniper, a law soldier, machine gunner etc?
So can maybe you simplify these steps in creating missions like a story or a novel, saying okay first step: Determine Character, second step, determine what you want the character to do, and so on?
Well hopefully this kind of gets it going more. I still think this needs more discussing, and also on my part reading, learning and playing etc.
To everybody else~
Incase it doesn't seem like I've responded to anybody elses posts, I really havent, because it's kind of just been MacGuba and I talking. Just want you all to know, i've read your replies, and say thanks for reading this thread. Please post what ever else you like for me or anybody else who has posted. Thanks all...
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Start with this tutorial. (http://www.ofpec.com/editors/resource_view.php?id=68) Read it each day for a week until it is engraved on your heart. It doesn't mean you'll make great missions, but it does mean you won't make bad ones.
The fundamental point in creating a good mission is exactly the same in creating a good novel: you must cause the player to "suspend his disbelief." (The player/reader doesn't believe what's happening in the mission/book is real, because he knows intellectually that it is a work of fiction. In order to enjoy the work of fiction, he temporarily suspends this disbelief, so that he get right into the mission/book and enjoy it thoroughly. The mission/book creator must do everything possible to help the player/reader achieve that suspension of disbelief.)
This is where talk of 'realism' comes from: the more realistic something is, the more believable it is. And that's why I'm constantly banging on about how you should Preview the mission, imagine that you are the commander, and place your units/static objects accordingly. You want a realistic mission? Well what would the defensive commander do? He'd walk around the village saying "hosptial here ... ammo dump there .... store the vehicles behind that barn ... yes we'll have a machine gun nest here ..... some sandbags and RPGs there ..." and so on. (Yes I know some of that would be subcontracted to his staff and subordinates, but you take my point.)
Reality on its own of course is insufficient: even detrimental. You need a good story. A sound plot with a beginning, middle and end. A powerful sense of place and time. Strong characters. If your mission isn't going to make a good short story, it isn't going to make a good mission. That's why good Intros and Briefings are so important - that's where you introduce the story, and indeed, tell much of it.
The CWC campaign wrote itself becuase there was so much that had to be done to introduce the player to various aspects of the game. Different weapons, driving vehicles, commanding tanks, flying planes, commanding a group ... half the missions were really just training missions. That's parly why Resistance was a much better campaign, there was more time for genuine story.
If you are stuck for mission ideas, read some military history. There are tens of thousands of real historical actions that would make a sound basis for an OFP mission. OFP is very flexible so you can transform almost every detail - the historical thing need only be a starting point. You don't have to do a re-creation.Most BIS missions don't use script files. However, scripting is a very powerful tool: and if you want to make good missions you'll need to use every tool available to you. Why would you want to "get around" external scripting? It is true you can do some stuff in init fields and so on, but its very limited.Wrong. That's about 23rd step. Start with the story in your head. Who when where why which????? What's going to be in the Intro and Briefing? Who are your main characters going to be?
Right, now get in a chopper and fly round some islands looking for a location. Having found the location, spend an afternoon exploring the area and thinking about how it will affect the plot. Adjust accordingly. Repeat. Now explore the area further away, where the attackers will be. Make similar changes. Repeat. Back to the village again and repeat.
The mission is starting to take shape now, so you can start playing and experimenting: throw some missionettes together in the area and get a good understanding of the lie of the land. It looks attractive to attack from this direction but is that really true? What is the best way to defend from the south? And so on.
Gradually, these missionettes will begin to turn into bits of your mission. You'll probably have have a dozen saved and the moment when your mission starts is the moment when you bring them all together into one mission. Now you can really spend some time on the Mission Editor map, putting things in roughly the right place and adding static objects and so on. Then a few triggers. And then suddenly you have the basic outline of the mission.
Sure you can get to the basic outline part in 10 minutes by just placing some stuff in the editor straight off. That's how you make a mediocre mission.
Final point: like most things a good mission is 10% and 90% perspiration. Assuming you have school/college/job, it takes about a year to make a really good mission. If you've knocked it off in 3 months, it may be a perfectly sound mission but it isn't going to be a great one.
Oh and NightJay if you think that tutorial is good, and its not already in the Editors Depot, get the author to submit it or get his permission and submit it yourself (with him as author obviously). We want to have every good script, tutorial, function and tool that there is, bar none.
thanks Mac, nice stuff there
I'm trying to make a mission worth publishing for beta testing, I've always started with the mission then the plot
hmmm, I'm gonna start again from scratch, this time with plot more in mind