OFPEC Forum
Addons & Mods Depot => OFP - Addons & Mods Beta Testing => Topic started by: Grendel on 01 Jun 2005, 01:37:15
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I think I brought this up about a year ago in another thread, but d***d if I can remember where.
I have a dream...
I have a dream that when I kill a tank in OFP, the turret will blow off...
I know this would be possible using two things (well kind of three but...read on please)
The first thing, the scripting, I can do.
The addon stuff...well lets just say that I have invested pretty much all three of my brain cells to learning how to be a decent scripter.
If someone were to MODIFY (not necessarily create from new) the existing models of a turreted vehicle, realization of this dream would be very possible.
The model would need to be opened, and the turret and hull would need to be separated, and configed as objects that can be setvelocity'd and saved as separate objects within the addon .pbo.
That's all I need.
the rest I can do:
(the smoke)
The script would add a killed eventhandler, and upon death the script would getpos and getdir the dead tank, use drop effects to create a shockdust effect (mainly to hide the old switcheroo) and delete the dead tank.
(the mirrors)
The HULL would be setpos'd and setdir'd where the dead tank was, and the TURRET would be setpos's only to be setvelocity'd with some semi-random values, and a shell125 would be camcreated under it to blow it (and add some catastrophic effects). More drop effects etc would be impimented for cookoffs etc.
I have a dream...
-Grendel
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Grendel, this is one thing I also want to see OFP do. I have one question for you:
I assume you will delete the old tank when you create the new objects, so do you want these new objects to be able to take crew, so you can transfer the crew from the old vehicle to the new objects?
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I know this has been done... I just can't seem to find a link. I never tried it myself, but i was some effects pack/mod, or some addon. Real helpful, I know ;). Anyway, if you ask on the official forums, I promise you'll get a link to it in about 10 seconds.
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I guess i should try and modify the m1a1 into 2 pieces ;)
ill be back in around ~30minutes
i think you are talking about the one effect pack made by vitho or something like that
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@oyman
I've got the T80 in two pieces (it wasn't that hard), but I'm trying to write a config for it (which I'm not good at)
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give me the model names and ill write the config then ;)
also the folder name
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Ok, the model names are:
T80_Hull.p3d
T80_Turret.p3d
The folder name (currently) is simply T80
Thanks for the help, I know a little bit about configs, but certainly not enough :P
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config is based off my ladder addon, so it should work first time trying ;D
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Thanks Guys!
Wow, that was quick too! I will have the scripting done in about a night, once I have the models to play with...
And it would be more realistic if the crew could be moved into the 'new' hull, but if this is a problem I can easily script around it...
In Fact... I didn't even think of the crew, but that gives me an idea! I could script the turret crew to "get blasted out of the turret" immidiately on impact if they are turned out. BTW Believe me, this does happen! I saw some guncamera footage of my unit's Apaches during the first gulf war, and an Iraqi TC got popped out of his hatch like a cork when a helfire impacted behind the turret.
Thanks for jumping on this, guys and I'm confident this one will be a winner!
-Grendel
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@Grendel
I'll see what I can do about moveing the men in the tank
@oyman
Thanks for the config, it gets the objects in game. I do get an error message on startup, though, and it seems kind of strange:
No Entry 'config.bin/CfgVehicles/T80_Turret.submerged'.
It doesn't seem to effect the objects ingame
Any ideas ???
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hmm, i didnt get that when i tested the config ???
oh well atleast it gets the models ingame ;D
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oh well atleast it gets the models ingame ;D
That's true
It is probably something I did to the model, anyway ::)
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Gen Barron, I had that pack you were talkin about. I deleted it though since it added like120+ things to my objects list making it unbearable to scroll through. But it was in russian or something, dumas of abrams and 2-3 pieces of every vehicle, almost every vehicle. I guess it would have been substitued in like what you're trying to do.
The only fun thing I remember from the pack is the guys with cocktails that exploded and set ppl on fire. Its funny seeing Guba run about. Also, I used a bomb on a abrams turret and it flew up in the air off a cliff and killed someone, that I could never replicate, ever. Very funny, boom, shewwww, splat.
But that really doesn't help does it?
I share your vision though. 8) ;D
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I deleted it though since it added like120+ things to my objects list making it unbearable to scroll through. But it was in russian or something, dumas of abrams and 2-3 pieces of every vehicle, almost every vehicle
Hmmmm...thats a good point. Maybe a compromise would be to have a sort of 'universal' blown to hell, twisted hull and turret for each vehicle TYPE; All abrams get a generic Abrams hull/turret, All T series Ruskie tanks get generic T-72 hull/turrets, all M2 etc..etc...
I could set the script up to pull the appropriate Hull/Turret Combo for the vehicles in a particular array.
As long as the blown vehicles were retextured to make them a F***d up looking anyway, no one should notice too much.
Good work and good input so far, thanks everyone!
-Grendel
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That's not a bad idea.
The M1 should get it's own
The T72 and T80 should share one
The T55 and M60 should share one
The M2A2 should probably get it's own
Is it possible to pop off the tiny turret of the BMP?
What about the M113?
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I deleted it though since it added like120+ things to my objects list making it unbearable to scroll through. But it was in russian or something, dumas of abrams and 2-3 pieces of every vehicle, almost every vehicle
Hmmmm...thats a good point. Maybe a compromise would be to have a sort of 'universal' blown to hell, twisted hull and turret for each vehicle TYPE; All abrams get a generic Abrams hull/turret, All T series Ruskie tanks get generic T-72 hull/turrets, all M2 etc..etc...
No no no.... it is super easy to simply "hide" all those objects from the editor. Or to organize them into a different "folder" to get them out of the way of his other objects. The Rusky addon makers just didn't do the job right.
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No no no.... it is super easy to simply "hide" all those objects from the editor. Or to organize them into a different "folder" to get them out of the way of his other objects. The Rusky addon makers just didn't do the job right
Thats true, but from a pratical standpoint I think it would be better to keep common hull/turrets for vehicle types to cut down on the file size (at first anyway). The poor 56kers would appreciate it.
Is it possible to pop off the tiny turret of the BMP?
What about the M113?
BMP: Yes! even easier than the tanks, as it's turret is lighter.
M113: No. The normal M113 has no turret per say, just a weapon pintle mounted on a traversable track bolted around the commander's hatch.
Basicaly, anything with a fully enclosed turret can be popped of with sufficient energy transfer, kinetic (Sabot) or chemical (heat).
Contrary to popular belief, the turrets arent bolted or screwed on to the hull in any way (although we still mess with new recruits by telling them to traverse the turret 30 times to unscrew it lol), they just get lowered into the hull and sit tight by virtue of their weight. Provide enough energy to overcome the weight of the turret, and POP!
-Grendel
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There was a russian scripter who's done this with an effect pack. It had the effects for lots of stuff, including tanks. It had lots of models, like skeletons that get put in burnt out cars, turrets that fly of when the tank is destoyed, fuel trucks that blow up etc
I'm sure some of the effects are included in Y2K3, but I've never noticed the turrets blowing off
I don't have the site URL anymore, which sucks :(
You should just be able to check the tank type, if it's x, then deletevehcle the tank, create the bottom of the tank corpse, and create the turrent just ahove it, setvelocity it upwards a bit. You can then do the smoke/explsions around this.
I would use the bank/pitch thing to check the tank hasn't been fliped over, if it's over y degrees any way, dont run the scripts
- Ben
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Contrary to popular belief, the turrets arent bolted or screwed on to the hull in any way
Really?! I guess I just learned something new
(although we still mess with new recruits by telling them to traverse the turret 30 times to unscrew it lol)
Lol
EDIT:
Does anyone know where the damage textures for the tanks are?
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Contrary to popular belief, the turrets arent bolted or screwed on to the hull in any way
i thought it was kind of bolted from inside upwards like on the 360degree gyro bikes the ones where the handelbars spin a 360
EDIT - You sould have it so theres a certain percentage when the turret coms off becuase if every single time you blow up a tank the turret comes of it would look a bit weird also how about a cracked turret like half of it just cracks and falls of after an explosion?
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I think what Grendal is thinking is the turret only pops off when the turret is hit. I think this can be established by the use of a hit eventhandler
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perhaps this is the effect pack you're looking for:
http://ofp.gamezone.cz/index.php?showthis=5344
http://ofp.gamezone.cz/index.php?showthis=5355
though i don't know if it was publicly releases... don't think so.
i agree with general barron; put the single turrets and hulls in a separate vehicleclass or set the scope value in the config to 0 (or private) and they shouldn't appear in the mission editor at all ;).
@student pilot: the dammaged textures are normally generated by the game engine out of the existing ones if you tell ofp certain things ;) . fab has a good tutorial on this: http://fab.ofp.free.fr/ -> tutorials -> dammaged tanks
a second way is to tell ofp directly which textures to use by the dammageHalf[]= {}; and dammageFull[]={}; subclasses in the cfgvehicle class entry of the vehicle. this normally applies to textures you don't want to get darker the more the vehicle is dammaged, e.g. glass textures. check the commented configs for examples.
@grendel
i suggest that you config the hull as a vehicle due to ground alignment and cargo position reasons.
(if you don't know what i mean by ground alignment: place the wrecked ural and the sand bag fence on a steep surface in the mission editor. the ural will partly vanish in the earth, the sand bag fence will be aligned to the ground but not as steep as the ground - upright so to speak)
how do you want to check the direction the turret faces shortly before it is blown away?
or do you let it all vanish in a huge cloud of dust? ;D
//edit @student pilot:
quote from igor drukov's tut on EHs:
"hit" (men or vehicles) :
_this select 0 : who's hit (can be either a man or a vehicle) ;
_this select 1 : who did (h)it ;
_this select 2 : scalar damage value.
"dammaged" (doesn't work for vehicles) :
-> you _cannot_ detect when the turrent is hit by using an eventhandler. however you can check if the turret was severly damaged by using the canfire query.
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the dammaged textures are normally generated by the game engine out of the existing ones
I thought this was the case, thanks for clearing it up
you _cannot_ detect when the turrent is hit by using an eventhandler. however you can check if the turret was severly damaged by using the canfire query.
I thought one of the EH's returned which part was hit, or is this the dammaged EH which is not available to vehicles?
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yep, unfortunatly. hopefully this changes when AA comes out
... sorry for not posting the rest, here you go:
"dammaged" (doesn't work for vehicles) :
_this select 0 : who's damaged ;
_this select 1 : what part of the body has been hit ("nohy" for the legs, "ruce" for the hands, "hlava" for the head, "telo" for the torso).
_this select 2 : scalar damage value ;
This EH does NOT return who has shot.
igor's whole tut can be found here (http://javascript:open_snippet('resource_view.php?id=543')) if someone ever wanted to know that ;D
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Fabs tut is also available on OFPEC (http://www.ofpec.com/editors/resource_view.php?id=822)
Planck ;D ;D
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I also agree the hull/turrets should not show up in the -objects- pull down...Although a -seperate- folder could come in handy if a mission editor wanted to add the effect of already popped tanks to their mission.
And I agree Ben, the effect will be based on a roughly 50/50 chance...And the getpitch usage is a good idea.
Actually, the turrets should pop off with hull hits as well.
The hull of a tank is basically an armored shell, without a lot of separation between engine, crew, and turret. The only real 'shieling' of the engine from an internal standpoint is usually just to keep the carbon monoxide from the crew, and in my M3a2, consists of removable aluminum plates with rubber gaskets between the driver and the engine.
So any hit to the hull has the potential of providing enough energy to lift the turret.
As far as the turret mounting thing and bike handlebar gyros, the reason tanks don't use this is twofold: First this would be very expensive to manufacture and install and (due to the mass of a turret) is not practical or necessary. As long as the tank is upright, the turret aint goin nowhere on its own, trust me. Second, it would make pulling a turret for repairs or maintenance much slower and difficult-not good during a shooting war OR garrison for that matter.
-Grendel
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@anyone who can config better than me (that should be most of you)
I have tried to config the tank parts, but my skills aren't good enough for this sort of thing. I can make the models, but I will need help to config them.
I have one question before I continue making the models:
Do you want the models to include the proxies and named selections?
Or do you simply want the models withought the proxies and named selections?
If the model has the proxies and named selections, it should be possible to config the addon to take advantage of OFP's damaged textures
If the model is without the proxies and named selections, I will probably need someone to include a texture I can texture the parts with to make them appear damaged (my texture abilities sort of suck ::))
-Student Pilot
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I have one question before I continue making the models:
Do you want the models to include the proxies and named selections?
Or do you simply want the models withought the proxies and named selections?
Whichever is easier for you to config at this point. To make the scripting work I don't really need accurate textures yet, just some physical models to play with. My opinion though would be to suggest just retexturing the objects instead of having OFP do it with the proxies and named selections. It sounds easier to config, and I can probably work on the textures if I had a base .paa or .jpeg skin to work with.
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@Grendal
I'll go ahead and send you the T80 and T72 parts so you can experiment with them. One thing about the parts, for some reason when they are created, they won't be affected by setvelocity commands until they are shot, I usually camcreate a shell or handgrenade to get around this. I will try to get this fixed for the final release. Also, the parts are not textured in damage textures yet, so no matter what you do to them they will be like new :P
Here is a picture (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/danawelshire/turret.jpg) of the turret in action (note, the script is horridly simple, I didn't write this script to compete with you, Grendal, just to show the turret in action ;))
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In response to the screenshot:
OH, HELL YEAH!!!!!!!!!!!!! :cheers: :thumbsup:
Don't worry a bit about the textures or the need to shoot the turret first, as I planned on camcreate'ing a shell under it anyway (with a slightly random offset and some setvelocity shinanigens) to help get it to flip hopefully....
I eagerly await the models.
Once again: Good show, I say...good show!
-Grendel
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I have finished the rest of the hulls and turrets, here is a screenshot (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/danawelshire/Tank_Parts.jpg).
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thats cool :thumbsup: ;D
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Indeed that is VERY cool!
I recieved the updated file and I will start the scripting tonight!
-Grendel
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Just an update for those that care...
The project is near Beta...There are a few things Student Pilot is doing to tweak the models and then I will need a night to fine tune the scripts. The effect worked quite well with the BMP and BMP1 so far, with the turrets popping and flipping lazily. The script also adds some nice drop particle effects when the vehicle blows, a fire/smoke script for the hull, a smoke trail for the turret as it flies throught the air, and dust kip up when it lands.
Any other effects anyone would like to see?
-Grendel
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Are you doing anything to the crew? Well I dunno if they go flying about as well, but it'd look cool.
-ammo exploding
-engine compartment fires
-broken treads? done in model?
-large open pieces of hull or turret
-oil stains and hydralics maybe
-shockdust when the turret lands
-crew crawling out...
If its doable...
which some of it is. ;)
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Are you doing anything to the crew? Well I dunno if they go flying about as well, but it'd look cool.
Nothing is done to them. They usually end up dead somewhere near the tank after it is deleted.
-ammo exploding
already done
-shockdust when the turret lands
aleady done
-oil stains and hydralics maybe
Not a bad idea, and certainly doable...for someone else ::) I can't make textures to save my life
-engine compartment fires
I'm not sure how feasible this is. There are no EHs that return the damaged portion of a vehicle
-large open pieces of hull or turret
Uhg, more modelling :P
-broken treads? done in model?
(See above) ::)
-crew crawling out...
Not a bad idea either, but can the crew survive a turret popping off?
I think Grendel knows more about tanks than I do, so he can come along and correct anything I said.
Thanks for the suggestions, GuiltyRoachKillar ;)
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Well, I used a script from FAB for tank rear engine fires that happen randomly. They just look good. I mean its smoking and having a fire and all. C'mon, for all the pyros out there... :P ;D
crew flying- no, ofp makes bodies look likes crap in the air
stains(various) - would look cool to see different fluids and such from the engine and other parts partly on the tank, could also have bloodspots that are black or something as well
modeling- ahhh, c'mon! :-* ;D I see your point.
crew crawling - wouldn't the driver be unaffected in certain instances? As for the gunner and commander.... :P :-\
Keep up the good work. :thumbsup:
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Well, I used a script from FAB for tank rear engine fires that happen randomly. They just look good. I mean its smoking and having a fire and all. C'mon, for all the pyros out there... :P ;D
Thanks, I'll have to take a look at it.
stains(various) - would look cool to see different fluids and such from the engine and other parts partly on the tank, could also have bloodspots that are black or something as well
I agree, they would look cool, now to find a texturer...
modeling- ahhh, c'mon! :-* ;D I see your point.
I don't know how hard it would be to model what you want, but one thing does concern me; that is the size of the addon. If I made different models of the tank, each one showing something different ripped off, I am afraid the file size would become enormous. Right now, with the turrets and hulls of every default vehicle in Resistance, the file size is a little over 1 meg.
crew crawling - wouldn't the driver be unaffected in certain instances? As for the gunner and commander.... :P :-\
Lol. I'm not too sure, I think Grendel could probably clear this one up, but I would think if a shell could pop a tank turret off, it would also dislodge parts of the tank into the driver's space. These parts would go flying fast and kill the driver. That's what I always thought, anyway.
Thank you for your input!
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I'm not too sure, I think Grendel could probably clear this one up, but I would think if a shell could pop a tank turret off, it would also dislodge parts of the tank into the driver's space
The Thermobaric pressure alone would indeed kill the driver in a catostrophic kill of this nature. The driver's 'hole' is usually not shielded in any way that would prevent propagation of a blast wave of this magnitude. When you factor in spalling and secondary missiles and fragmentation...the chances of anyone surviving this type of hit is virtually nill. Remember, this is enough energy to lift a several ton piece of armor several meters! -EDIT-To put it in perspective, imagine several goldfish in a metal container that has several distinct but interconnecting chambers and a lid...and then shoot the bowl with, say, a 300 win. mag. Before the overpressure has reached enough enegy to pop the lid, it has surpassed lethal levels of pressure for the poor fishies regardless of which chamber they happend to be in, as the pressurized water attempted to find the path of least resistance.
Mmmmmm, now I want some sushi....anyway.
I will also try to incorporate a random chance for the engine compartment to catch fire, although there is already a flame/smoke script for the 'path of least resistance' namely the spot on the hull where the turret used to be.
-EDIT-
Or maybe I will make 2 or 3 smaller, randomly placed fires on the hull to emulate burning fuel or pyric reaction of the hull armor (depleted uranium and magnesium aluminum are both flamable metals/alloys)
-Grendel
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Well, the AI in ofp don't die so easy. They always seem to crawl away from the spent tank, follow me, and shoot me in the back some time later. :P
@ the whole thing: I can't wait to play with this when you guys finish it. It'd look cool in my tank mission I made a month or two back. Night Raiders with flipping turrets and all sorts of cool effects, and at night...
@about the wreckage: Will we be seeing the crew sprawled about, or is the driver going to sitting dead in the tank or _____. (unknown)
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@about the wreckage: Will we be seeing the crew sprawled about, or is the driver going to sitting dead in the tank or _____. (unknown)
Right now they are sprawled about wherever they happen to land. I tried several attempts to config the parts as vehicles to add the driver in, but my config skills were not up to the challenge :-\
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Would you see the drivers? If your not modeling an opened up tank model, I dont see how you would, 1, see the crew, 2, the crew would manage to fly out.
Maybe check if the units were in the tank, if so, delete them, if they've gotten out, leave them
For the scripts.. One idea : use the eventhandler select (3?) to see how much dammage the tank took, if it's > 0.6, say, make the turrent blow of.. So if the tank is almost dead, and you fire a few rounds at it, proding it past dammage 1, the turrent doesn't blow off :P
Looks good sofar, nice work :)
- Ben
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about the blood and oil textures, i have some blood textures that if darkened will look like oil. also have some good blood splats :)
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how about seeing the crew if any survived crawl out just to add a smal bit of relaism
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The Project is now nearing Beta release (pending any new tweaks by Student Pilot).
I think everyone will be quite happy with the results ;)
By the way, I would just like to reitterate that Student Pilot is THE MAN for working so quickly and dilligently on this!
-Grendel
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Would you see the drivers? If your not modeling an opened up tank model, I dont see how you would, 1, see the crew, 2, the crew would manage to fly out.
Maybe check if the units were in the tank, if so, delete them, if they've gotten out, leave them
Not a bad idea
For the scripts.. One idea : use the eventhandler select (3?) to see how much dammage the tank took, if it's > 0.6, say, make the turrent blow of.. So if the tank is almost dead, and you fire a few rounds at it, proding it past dammage 1, the turrent doesn't blow off :P
Again, not a bad idea.
I'm not the scripter here, but it doesn't seem like those suggestions would be too hard to implement
about the blood and oil textures, i have some blood textures that if darkened will look like oil. also have some good blood splats :)
I'll keep your offer in mind. I'm first going to see if I can get the game engine to make the textures for me. If my attempts fail, then I will have to make my own textues. If that happens, count on a message from me. ;)
how about seeing the crew if any survived crawl out just to add a smal bit of relaism
This might be possible. Is it possible to setpos the crew and switchmove them to a prone position?
Thanks for the kind comments, Grendel, but be sure to include youself. It was your idea, after all. ;)
-Student Pilot
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Hey everyone,
Once I get some screenshots together tonight, I will try having OFP info cz host the .pbo for the tank parts, unless there is anyone out there willing to upload it...(1.15 MB)
I will then post the Demo Mission on the Beta thread.
If I dare say so myself, this turned out pretty nice, folks.
-Grendel
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Yes it is possible to make the crew crawl out.
tankdestroyedD setpos (getpos tankdestroyed)
tankdestroyedD setunitpos "DOWN"
tankdestroyedD move (getpos nurse)
;)
edit: Actually, use a tankdriver action ["Eject"] then the setpos seeing as he has to be moved out of the tank first.
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Well... I'm not sure about this but wouldn't it be possible that IF the turret won't fly off and the commnder has his hatch open, then wouldnt there be a 50/50 chance that he'll fly out of there... I have read about this kind of stuff happening in WW2...
Sorry for my bad english... I'm From Finland....(mmFF)
:-X
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wouldnt there be a 50/50 chance that he'll fly out of there
Yes, that's something I am working on (it would be nicer looking if OFP had decent ragdoll physics...hopefully fixed in AA)
-Grendel
Update on beta progress: I got the screenshots ready and I will send OFP Info CZ the info to see if they will upload the .pbo. If that doesn't work for some reason I started a freeweb site...I just have to wait a week before I can upload over 750KB :(
So, to tide you over....here are the screens:
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a31/SSG-Grendel/k-kill2.jpg (http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a31/SSG-Grendel/k-kill2.jpg)
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a31/SSG-Grendel/hangtime.jpg (http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a31/SSG-Grendel/hangtime.jpg)
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a31/SSG-Grendel/secondaries.jpg (http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a31/SSG-Grendel/secondaries.jpg)
It's my first time linking to a online photo gallery, so let me know if you can't see 'em.
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Looks pretty cool, can't wait for the beta
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that does look pretty good but if a law or rpg was fired it wouldnt make he turet fly that high neither would a tank but it still loks great
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that does look pretty good but if a law or rpg was fired it wouldnt make he turet fly that high neither would a tank but it still loks great
Actually, I have heard that a turret can be popped up to 30 feet in the air. :o
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Seeing as how there is some skepticism out there...
This should clear up a lot of questions/myths/disbelief...The pertinent section is down close to the bottom of the page, and has some quite detailed images on what a 'mere" land mine did to an M1 (pay particular attention to how much the turret weighs...
http://www.jimbesso.com/mb2/emails/2003/11/18.asp (http://www.jimbesso.com/mb2/emails/2003/11/18.asp)
another note: The catastrophic nature of a K-Kill need not be solely the result of the AT weapon alone, it can also be a result of ammunition cookoff (addmittedly not so much a factor with a tank like the M1 due to the effort put into crew survivability, but for soviet tanks with ammo storage around the turret ring...) Also, the final Alpha will be tweaked for effect based on damage inflicted on a round by round basis.
-Grendel
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i made new textures for the bmd which we were talking about via PM.
(http://img198.echo.cx/img198/2281/wreckedbmd4ul.th.jpg) (http://img198.echo.cx/my.php?image=wreckedbmd4ul.jpg)
seeing those pics on the page you linked it looks like the abrams didn't even catch fire... so i'm wonderin if all my pretty little grime stains are completely off reality :-\
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so i'm wonderin if all my pretty little grime stains are completely off reality
No! Not at all! Those look great. Most tanks that suffer a K-Kill get very burnt and scorched. The reason the M1 appeared relatively scorch free is probably as a result of the CARC paint which is extremely tough.
I would definitely leave them that way! Great work.
-grendel
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Done!
Check the beta page!!!
-Grendel
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Yay! ;D ;D ;D
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I'm fairly certain that an RPG would do anything more than make a scroch mark on the hull of an M1A2, let alone blow the turret off. This right grendal? And if it was anything lightly armored, like a M113, it'd make a nice neat hole and fragment inside, creating a hellish mess inside but little visible exterior damage. Again, grendal? This right. If it is, you might want to check the weapon that fired the deadly shot, if it's an RPG, might want to just leave it a normal death. Or even worse, imagine seeing a grenade send the turret hurtling 30 meters into the air. And also, I've tried this in older versions, but I killed a BMP with roughly 450 rounds of .50 cal MG fire, concentrated on one spot. So a killing weapon check might be warranted.
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I'm fairly certain that an RPG would do anything more than make a scroch mark on the hull of an M1A2
This is true for most of the older RPG rounds out there, but some of the new stuff is pretty nasty. There is one that uses a Explosively Formed Penetrator which is believed to be the "silver bullet" that scored a penetrating hit on an M1 during OIF. No crew casualties, but it managed to penetrate into the turret, narrowly missing the torso of the gunner (it did crease his seat, mess up his "chicken vest", and bruise him up a bit in the kidney region). Small warhead technology is once again begining to surpass current countermeasures...a deadly ballet between the Armor and Anti-Armor R&D teams that is constantly in motion.
And if it was anything lightly armored, like a M113, it'd make a nice neat hole and fragment inside, creating a hellish mess inside but little visible exterior damage. Again, grendal
The M113 (and several other APCs) have armor consisting of an alloy of magnesium and aluminium...which are incidentally two of the three components of Thermite :o. Once they are hit with an anti tank weapon they have a nasty tendency to catch fire and melt into slag in relatively short order. Other than that, then yes, the exterior is usually pretty unscathed.
So a killing weapon check might be warranted
The final version will probably use an event handler to check for the scalar dammage of the round it was hit by, and use this value to randomly trigger the K-Kill effect if a certain threshold is surpassed (calibrated for Sabot and large HEAT warheads, Helfires, etc). This should prevent K-Kill effects from underpowered weapons without having to edit the script for a zillion different ammo type checks.
-Grendel
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Tank turrets may pop off due to a magazine explosion. I don't know how frequent or likely this is, especially on modern tanks. Something not modelled very well in OFP is that modern tanks are so tough (like, invulnerable to nuclear attack tough), that the munitions employed to kill them usually only poke needle thin (I exaggerate) holes in the armour, and maybe fragment the inside of the hull a bit, killing the crew with shrapnel. Even the famed maverick missile will only put a pinky finger width hole (more exaggeration) in the composite armour of an abrams. Hammering a tank in the same 'hitbox' over and over again is not really going to increase your chances of a catastrophic fuel/magazing explosion that reduces the tank to a flaming wreck.
(http://www.webmutants.com/strategypage/abrams_lessons_learned5a.jpg)
The above Abrams was 'mobility killed' in iraq, and the Americans bombed he heck out of it in order to make it unlikely to be usable to their opposing forces in any way. It was hit with 2 mavericks, a sabot round, and some thermite grenades, if I recall correctly.
The point is that a magazine explosion is sort of unlikely, and even then, I don't know how likely it would be for the turret to come flying off. I like this idea, but if it is to be implimented I think it would work best as a rare occurance.
Sources: http://www.strategypage.com/gallery/articles/default.asp?target=abrams_lessons_learned.htm (http://www.strategypage.com/gallery/articles/default.asp?target=abrams_lessons_learned.htm)
The second page of that link has the information about the extent to which one has to go to to 'finally destroy' a main battle tank.
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/row/rpg-7.pdf (http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/row/rpg-7.pdf)
The crack about tanks being immune to nuclear weapons refers to the context mentioned in the introduction of the above training document.
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I don't know how frequent or likely this is, especially on modern tanks.
Granted it is pretty infrequent with most modern western MBTs, as they have been designed with crew survivability in mind (separate ammunition compartments with blow off panels and such). It does happen though. Please refer to an article I linked to in this thread. That was just an anti tank mine and it blew the turret off an M1. The effect will be suitably rare on M1s though, don't worry.
Soviet designed armor is much more vulnerable to this however, as they often design their tanks with a 'carousel' (sp?) style rack with rounds freely exposed to the crew around the circumfrence of the turret compartment.
I remind everyone that magazine explosion is not the only mechanic involved in turret launching k-kills. The ammount of energy created by a sabot round as it transfers it's kenetic energy on impact is huge. Just because they don't have a 'warhead' doesn't matter much when you are dealing with the velocities achieved by these rounds.
For gameplay purposes, the 'default' random chance values I am considering are:
M2 and BMP series: 30%
M1:5%
T-series (up to 72):25%
T-series 80-90:Still researching, but probably 15%
They will be user definable BTW so instead of wrangling over 10 million premutations of these values...you can set them yourselves quite easily.
-Grendel
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I remind everyone that magazine explosion is not the only mechanic involved in turret launching k-kills. The ammount of energy created by a sabot round as it transfers it's kenetic energy on impact is huge. Just because they don't have a 'warhead' doesn't matter much when you are dealing with the velocities achieved by these rounds.
If the impact of a sabot round hitting the turret of a tank was enough to rip it off, the recoil of the gun would be enough to rip the turret off of the tank that fired it. There is no possible way that the impact of a round designed specifically not to give its energy up upon impact- but rather to retain its energy for as long as possible to drive through as much armour as it can- is going to contribute to the de-turretting of an MBT in any way. Moreover, the explosive force generated by a shaped or hollow charge warheads is used to focus a jet of vaporous copper that causes a thermodynamic chemical reaction, causing the armour to flow away from the jet. There is no 'punching through' armour with blunt explosive or raw impact power on the scale that a cannon is able to deliver. The energy needs to be focussed into a point, like the point of the sabot dart or the point of a laser-like gas-jet. Based on these premises, I submit that the only mechanism that's capable of deturreting a tank is pressure inside the tank on the scale of thousands of pounds per sqaure inch against the weight and seals of the turret (which must weigh several tonnes). The only mechanism that would be capable of this would be a magazine or some other massive explosion inside the tank.
Regarding your link:
It's fallacious to think that because it's possible that it's common. Also, anti-tank mines are shaped charges that fire upwards through the relatively very weak under-armour of a tank. What I think is that some spall from the floor or the armour piercing jet hit the magazine. It was not 'merely' the mine, but rather a catastophic failure caused by chance when the mine detonated in such a way to affect explosives within the tank.
Let me clarify that I don't think your idea is bad- in fact I think it's good. IRL, though, this occurance is rather rare. I think it's probably much less likely than you think.
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If the impact of a sabot round hitting the turret of a tank was enough to rip it off, the recoil of the gun would be enough to rip the turret off of the tank that fired it.
Not neccacarily, keep in mind the turrret has alot more mass than a sabot round, and is still partially attached to the tank. Furthermore the barrel of the main gun recoils to absorb the shock of each shot fired. Hence, most of the energy created by the round leaving the barrel would be absorbed and disapated between the mass of the tank and the shock-absorbant properties of the barrel.
I'd guess it's possible, but still extreamly unlikley, that a sabot round slamming into where the turret meets the main chassis of the tank might be enough to knock the turret off... but it wouldn't go flying of the tank it'd probably just tilt sidways and roll off. I'd say the chances of internal explosion causing the turret to pop off is much higher.
Just a sugestion, but I'd suggest making a form of anti-tank mine with the turret-popping scripts built in.
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That would never happen. The penetrator is designed to penetrate, not tear off. I cannot stress enough that this is impossible. It's simple physics.
This is sort of off topic, though. Since I'm new I don't really want to make bad with the admins. If you would care to email me I could put something together to better explain the situation, if you like.
Edit: I tried to edit my profile to allow people to see my email addy but it seems to be broken. I'll keep trying in the meantime.
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Oh, and I forgot to mention.. turret popping I think would only be possible with somethign with an enclosed turrent. Any pressure that would pop off a tank's turret would just vent through the hole of an open turret, so I think that while it would probably be mangled beyond recognition, I don't think an m113's 'turret' would actually come off.
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A lot of what I'm about to say is assumption on my part, but I think it is all right.
If the impact of a sabot round hitting the turret of a tank was enough to rip it off, the recoil of the gun would be enough to rip the turret off of the tank that fired it.
SABOT Rounds may not be able to pop the turret off a tank without igniting the magazine, but I am quite sure that a HEAT shell will (IIRC, HEAT stands for High Explosive Anti-Tank). It is a matter about the concetration of energy. When a tank fires a round, the energy from that shot is disbursed throughout the WHOLE tank. The energy is so tremendous that even with a recoil the tank still rocks back and forth. When a shell hits a tank, all the the energy from the shell is transfered to a localized area of the tank. This is part of the reason why shells can punch through armor. If the shell hits in the right place, the localized burst of energy can be enough to lift a turret off the hull, and sometimes to great hieghts. The fact is, it does happen, and to eastern bloc tanks, I would think it would be reasonably common.
-Student Pilot
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A HEAT shell uses its explosive power to crush a cone shaped blank of copper into a superheated, pin-shaped jet. The copper hits the armour, and due to its thermodynamic and heat transfer properties, the armour is vapourized and flows around the jet. It is pushed asside as the jet flows forth. The explosive itself may cause the inner armour to spall due to the creation of uneven compression and sheering shockwaves within the armour itself, but the actual HEAT round acts much like a KE penetrator. In fact, the HEAT copper jet stream is so coherent, that an RPG round detonated in a screen or some trees will have sufficient energy to pop an M113 from 12 feet away, or 6 inches of concrete from 25 feet. I have a feeling that this is why those stryker anti-rocket cages worked so poorly. So, HEAT works by penetrating a very small bit of armour, just like APFSDS. The armour of modern MBT's is actually more effective in stopping HEAT rounds. They are usually made up of a kind of ceramic composite which is very heat (the energy and the round) resistent. When a HEAT round hits the ceramic, the ceramic shatters and flows backwards out towards the blast. THis acts sort of like ERA, reducing the velocity and energy of the copper stream. Usually, MBT's have 200 cm more resistance to HEAT rounds than KE rounds in RHA (rolled, homogenous steel armour) equivalent.
As discussed earlier, I think that the reason why eastern block tanks have a tendency to lose their turrets has to due with their autoloader, and the fact that their ammunition is left exposed to be hit by spall or some other secondary effect. There is actually some some eastern tank rounds that have a fuse setting so delicate, that the round must be fired from a stationary tank so that the round won't blow up in the barrel! Obviously, these rounds aren't stored at that fuse setting.
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oi, I feel inadequate ::) ;D
Ok, last ditch effort, let's take a look at this:
KE=1/2 mass (velocity squared)
Kenetic Energy is equal to one half times Mass times Velocity squared
The mass (weight) of an M1A1 M829 APFSDS tank shell is roughly 9 pounds.
The velocity is roughly equal to 1670 meters/second (we'll use 5500 feet/second):
KE = .5(9)(5500 squared)
So,
KE=136,125,000 ft-lbs or KE=5,600,000 joules
Let's assume the turret weighs 8 tons or 16000 lbs (7300 kg), if all the energy is transfered to the turret (which is impossible, just bear with me), the turret, at that energy level, will pop off at close to 90 mph. Now remember, not all the energy is ever fully transfered, and I am also assuming the energy is applied vertically. However, under optimum conditions, a turret can be popped off just by the shell alone. Physics do allow it.
-Student Pilot
*Credit for some of the math involved with this goes to my dad, I didn't figure all this out myself :P
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It is the physical design of the rounds that do not allow for it, though. You can't say that physics allow it, because they don't allow it. If physics did allow it, they would make the AT rounds blunt headed or frangible.
Also, you're neglecting the actual resistance to sheering forces of the turret and its assembly. I'm sure if that happened (a force instantaneously accellerated a tank's turret to those kinds of speeds, the turret coming off would be the least of the crew's worries. You'd have a weapon that would effectively liquify the crew.
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::)
Honestly, let them do their thing. OFP is a game and while it has a lot to do with realism, not everything is perfect. And from the sound of it, turret popping does happen. Not all the time, but I've read a little bit on it and I think the eastern tanks do have a greater chance of going pop. As for the western ones, I really don't know. And I'm puzzled as to why we have to go through all these physics lessons to prove something.
I have to agree with Grendel (earlier post) that AT weapons are now better than ever and MBTs and armor are playing catch up right now. Anyways, by the sound of the script, turret popping won't happen all the time. Only with certain weapons in certain conditions. So Max, just drop it and let them finish the project. :P
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And I'm puzzled as to why we have to go through all these physics lessons to prove something.
I know, my head is hurting ::) But I am going to give this one more shot...no pun intended
If we are going off-topic with this, moderators, please accept my apologies and tell me to knock it off ;)
It is the physical design of the rounds that do not allow for it, though. You can't say that physics allow it, because they don't allow it.
The physical design has little to do with it. Any object with the energy of a tank shell will do a lot of damage
Also, you're neglecting the actual resistance to sheering forces of the turret and its assembly.
What do you mean by shearing forces?
Anyway, if a round hits the turret in the right place (I've heard right where the turret meats the hull), the shell should be able to "wedge" itself between the turret and hull, and with the tremendous energy of the shell, it should be enough to pop off the turret.
For example, lets say only 5% of the energy of a shell is transfered vertically to the turret. That is 6,806,250 ft/lbs of energy that is still transfered. Now, if my calculations are correct, that equates to about 29 feet/second or about 20 mph. This is assuming the turret weighs 16,000 pounds. I don't know exactly how much a turret weighs. If anyone could give me a figure for a T72 turret, or something comperable, I would appreciate it.
So, even at a low energy transfer, physics still allow it. Weapon design, as I said above, has little to do with it. The big factor is where the shell impacts the tank.
-Student Pilot
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And I'm puzzled as to why we have to go through all these physics lessons to prove something.
Certainly not. I just enjoy this kind of discussion. I mean, I suppose I could have them at that abovetopsecret.com forums, but from what I've seen, they're all about trying to prove that that pinhole in the armour was not made by some kind of HEAT round, but some kind of microwave plasma laser death ray from area 51. That isn't really my scene.
How this discussion started was I was just saying that I think that turrets popping off would be unlikely, but I certainly would love to see it. It evolved from there, as I was championing why I thought it would be unlikely, and if the conversation is now off topic I'm willing to accept that. I'm argumentative, for sure, in the sense that I enjoy debate- but really do enjoy these discussions and I'm not out trying to belittle anyone. I feel that open discussion is how fresh ideas are tempered and new ideas are born.
The physical design has little to do with it. Any object with the energy of a tank shell will do a lot of damage
Well, that said, there are ways of enhancing the amount of damage that you do by shaping the rounds and playing with their material composition. What I was getting at is that the best way to expend all of that energy in tank busting is by designing a round that will not give up its energy. It is designed to hold on to it, even as it's flying through incredibly hard and thick tank armour. A flat-headed shell with that kind of energy hitting a tank turret may do some damage, but it would not be sufficient enough to kill the tank. This I assume because no tank shells have flat heads.
What do you mean by shearing forces?
Sheering forces happen when one part of a solid is moving the a different direction that another part. Resistence to tearing.
Anyway, if a round hits the turret in the right place (I've heard right where the turret meats the hull), the shell should be able to "wedge" itself between the turret and hull, and with the tremendous energy of the shell, it should be enough to pop off the turret.
I think that the shell itself would be crushed long before that- however, even if that is possible, the likelihood is rather slim given the size of the crack compared to the size of the rest of the tank, resulting in a low frequency of tank-turrets-popping-off-ness. I don't think that wedging somethign in there would pop the turret off, I think that the more likely scenario would be that the turret would jam.
Eh, if this is off topic and you want to continue the conversation you can PM me. I'm always happy to reply to PMs :)
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Emmmmm........yes its getting ever so slightly off-topic guys.
Can we steer it back on course please?
Planck
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Sorry, I'll continue the discussion through the IM.
-Student Pilot
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I actually saw some turrets popping off of some BTRT's (in ofp in some mod). They are from Sebastial Muller's BTRT pack, the one that is not included but essential for the BAS's TSF demo mission, Internal Conflict. The file pack itself is called BTRT_1_1.rar, and I think I got it from Gotflashpoint.com. Now, when I say I saw the turrets popping off, I mean to say that I saw a turret laying on the ground, so I don't know how effective it is. May was well have a look-see. Seeing as this mod has already been escalated, a reinvention of the wheel is probably already complete, but it might be interested for the author to note any differences in technique.