OFPEC Forum
Editors Depot - Mission Editing and Scripting => OFP - Editing/Scripting General => Topic started by: bored_onion on 24 Aug 2004, 17:04:06
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ive looked at 2 threads where a mod has locked them because they are talking about using music from other games
i agree that it probably isnt too legal and could get ofpec in trouble...
however, if this is the case (and also that when missions are reviewed, reviewers like custom music) where might the humble law abiding mission editor be able to obtain music that they could use legally and without qualmn?
what about making music, are there any programs that can be used for that?
what does the community suggest?
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Almost every mission (with custom music) uses copywrited material.... yeah "technically" it isn't legal, but you aren't making any money off it or anything, and it isn't quite the same thing as handing out burned CD's on the street, so I personally have no moral issues with it. However, I think you should always put info in the readme about what music you are using, and who it is written/performed by.
I seriously doubt OFPEC is going to get into any trouble, because the chances that somebody who made the copywritten material are going to visit OFPEC, and happen to download and play a mission using that material..... its like 99999999999999999999999999 to 1. The only reason "Operation *&#Jack" got into a legal tissy, is because someone from Lojack co. found it via a google search. Obviously google can't tell what music is used in a mission, so that just can't happen in this case.
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Yup.
Not only that, I know of several websites where well known writer/composers (for game/film music) have made all their scores available for free download at full quality--no strings attached, only that its for personal listening tho.
They do this to advertise (for more work I guess) and also to share their music with their adoring fans.
Now were anyone to alter their scores or mix them with other music or sell them etc, that would be a no no. But I dont see that they would be too worried about you listening to their music while you played an amateur game mission that was developed in a non commercial way.
Truth of the matter is you just never know. It is their property at the end of the day and they will act as they see fit.
The history of mod making and map making has been totally at the mercy of all past artists. The artists have either silently/openly given permission, were not aware, or simply didnt give a hoot. If they were all to stand up and scream stop now then it would be the end of 95% of all major amateur Mods and mission addition packs, and that would be a terrible day.
I would suggest that if you wish to use any music then give full credits to the artist and where the music came from (what game or music cd etc)
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well i suppose we should count down the time it takes for a mod to shut this thread now...
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After posting a response in another thread on this subject, this is the message I received and I quote :
'Hello djackl.
In this thread, you mention using Kazaa Lite to download copyrighted material. This is an illegal action.
We at OFPEC would appriciate if you would refrain from making such suggestions on our forum, since we are technically responsible for anything that goes on in here.
As a pointer to your post, it is legal to rip music from a CD and play it on your computer, you own a license to listen to that music, it is up to you to decide how you want to listen to it.
Spreading that music to others, through burning a new CD and giving it to a friend, using file sharing programs or even using a webcasted radio, is a breach of copyright and is illegal.
It is not a question of whether or not you are profiting from it, you are distributing the copyrighted material in a breach of the copyright laws.
Thank you.
KTottE. Global moderator, www.ofpec.com '
I think that settles it in the admins' eyes so I guess there is nothing you can do about it, however, in answer to your problem, the best thing to do is find out who owns the rights to the music and submit a request to them, stating that you aint trying to make a profit or anything.
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As a musician, I always advocate making your own music ;D. But I understand that most people don't have much experience at it, or don't want to invest any time into it, when they could easily drop in someone else's track.
As for programs, Fruity Loops is a good beginner program that introduces sequencing and such. But I'd suggest taking it a step further and learning a little bit about MIDI. You don't need anything other than a good MIDI program with some decent synthesizers, etc. and you got the ability to make good music. I just started messing around with Propellerhead's Reason, and it has tons of possibilities.
If you need any help, PM me, I'd be more than happy to help.
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I seriously don't think any big musician is gonna care as long as
1. You don't make money of the mission (And I disagree with anyone selling OFP mission anyway
2. You mention who it is (In credits/readme) as it gets them more knowen about
3. You buy there album
;)
- Ben
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1. They could lose money from the mission because you can un pbo the mission and get the music.
2. The fact that people can do the above will mean that they won't care about the recognition
3. See my previous post, you buy the album for the privelige to play it in private, to play it in public is a breach of copyright and illegal.
I dont agree with this ruling because i would like to see more custom music in missions, but I understand the admins' point of view that ofpec could get in trouble for hosting illegal missions so i suppose you should just distribute the mission in private or something so ofpec isnt involved or ask the publisher of the album who u have to get permission from.
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And thats pretty much why I hate most big companys..
Everything revolves around money :-\
I think companys and musicians (Bit ones, I mean) will still make as much money as they normally would if music is used in missions.. And they get more recognision..
But coz you don't pay them to use they're music (Even a bit..?), that means how ever many people who might have heard the song, and liked it, possibly buying a CD, wont..
What about using say 20 seconds of a song? That way if you de-pbo it, you wont get the acctual song?
- Ben
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The rules are that you can use a 30 second extract, though for the sake of politeness you are still advised to ask permission
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And thats pretty much why I hate most big companys..
Everything revolves around money
I bet if you owned a business, you would be thinking like that too. And if you wanted to make a living off of music, I would think you would like to be paid for your efforts as well.
The rules are that you can use a 30 second extract, though for the sake of politeness you are still advised to ask permission
Now that is something I've never heard of. ???
I don't really want to get into this much more, but I'll just be honest:
*Most of the missions (here or anywhere) with custom music use copywritten material
*It makes no sense that someone would depbo a mission to get a portion of a song that was downloaded off of (*#$*(, when they could just download it themselves.
Anyway, I really don't want to see OFPEC start rejecting submissions because they have copywritten material, so I won't go any further. But the fact is, nobody is going to notice, so I don't think it should be an issue; just like nobody is going to notice if you use a copywritten picture, or sound effect, or character, etc.
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Yeah in the end you have to remember this is a game, not some sort of corporation or something. We use this to have fun not make money, so I guess its something to be taken up with the admins.
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The rules are that you can use a 30 second extract, though for the sake of politeness you are still advised to ask permission
What law is that? US law? European Law?
The fact of the matter is, the internet is international so is bound by so many laws us poor plebs can't really tell the difference. We do have a resident lawyer (pure co-incidence, I assure you ;D), and I'm sure if you asked him he would say it's still illegal no matter which way you look at it. Profit or non-profit, the full clip or only part of the clip, it's still that artist's intellectual property...
The truth is you can't really be sure, as the laws are different depending on what country (or State!) an act is committed in. ;)
I'd assume that at the end of the day, if we're approached by someone asking us to take down content due to breach of copyright we have to take it down. We're simply not in a position to combat any form of litigation... :P
Anyway... methinks this thread doesn't have too much life left in it...
I'll leave it open for the mean time for the purposes of meaningful discussion (if there is any left). ;)
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So I'm supposing the only solution is to compose your own music?
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say, this thread is working quite well
good responses guys
keep em coming
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What law is that? US law? European Law?
I havent got a clue I think I read it somewhere, but I forgot where....
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Just one question. Would OFPEC refuse to host a mission if it contained copyrighted material?
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Arg! Don't push it!
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Your suggestion earlier on is the safest approach, djackl:
the best thing to do is find out who owns the rights to the music and submit a request to them
... or make your own.
And to confirm what Sui has posted:at the end of the day, if we're approached by <the music's author/publisher> asking us to take down content due to breach of copyright we have to take it down. We're simply not in a position to combat any form of litigation...
As Sui has wanted, I won't be locking this thread yet either but keep the discussion in the realms of legal solutions please. :)
Regarding if we'd host a mission with copyrighted material. We can only enforce what we know about. If someone complains, we consider the complaints merits on a case-by-case basis.
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Consider this, I actually bought a legal CD after playing a mission that contained a track by a certain well-known artist.
I discovered that the mission version had been 'altered' in two ways, firstly an effect was added at the beginning and secondly it was not the complete track.
Not using the complete track might be the solution here, together with readme info or/and, even better, a cutscene that includes info about the artist or band. The result is free promo and a possible incentive to buy for the artist without really giving anything away!
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Consider this, I actually bought a legal CD after playing a mission that contained a track by a certain well-known artist.
I discovered that the mission version had been 'altered' in two ways, firstly an effect was added at the beginning and secondly it was not the complete track.
Not using the complete track might be the solution here, together with readme info or/and, even better, a cutscene that includes info about the artist or band. The result is free promo and a possible incentive to buy for the artist without really giving anything away!
Except the artist might have something to say when he hears the effect. That's already going into remix waters and they're mostly done via agreement (legal ones)
I seriously don't think any big musician is gonna care as long as
1. You don't make money of the mission (And I disagree with anyone selling OFP mission anyway
2. You mention who it is (In credits/readme) as it gets them more knowen about
3. You buy there album
- Ben
In most cases it probably ends at number 2...including me
@Blunt
I just started messing around with Propellerhead's Reason, and it has tons of possibilities.
Anything in Reason you can't figure out or are interested in?
It's a big jump from Fruity Loops but you won't regret it.
#edit
about remixes
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In england, since the 1970's, electronic files (eg. .mp3's) are not property. Hence youc an do wat U want with them. But the copyrights still apply, and thats where your downfall is. So in theory, if the music in a game has no copyrights, and you live in the UK, it is okay to take music from it. But this is a grey area as far as im concerned (I dont know wether its been updated, ect.)
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One solution to the whole thing is to use music that is out of copyright, and here I'm thinking especially of old classical music. Many contemporary films and games alike use music that is of a classical style but which has been composed recently - John Williams is a bit of a demigod in this sense with films such as 'Saving Prvt. Ryan', 'Star Wars', 'Jaws', the 'Indiana Jones' trilogy, 'Jurassic Park', 'Back to the Future' and 'ET' (to name but a few) under his belt. They like to have their own music to give the product a unique feel, and this stuff will still be protected by copyright law.
However, you can find plenty of old classical music to fit any mood and you dont have to worry about Mr. Sony or Mrs. (for political correctness' sake ;-)) BMG knocking on your (or OFPECs) door.
You want to tell a good war story? You could do worse than take a leaf out of "Platoon's" book with Samuel Barber's chilling 'Adagio for Strings' as the title theme. If you're still not convinced then try to find someone who, when asked to name a song from 'Apocalypes Now', doesn't immediately respond with Wagner's 'Ride of the Valkyries'.
UbiquitousUK
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However, you can find plenty of old classical music to fit any mood and you dont have to worry about Mr. Sony or Mrs. (for political correctness' sake ;-)) BMG knocking on your (or OFPECs) door.
No, there is still a copywrite on that particular recording of the song. Just like if Brittany (sp?) Spears were to release a CD where she sings "jingle bells", that CD would also be copywritten. However, you could perform that classical music on your own, and there would be nothing the London Symphony Orchestra could say about it.
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I was also going to suggest Classical music. What orchestra is going to be able to tell that it is them performing on the recording and not someone else. You could probably even say that you got your school to do it. Who would know?
--Jes
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You could probably even say that you got your school to do it.
If your school orchestra sounds anywhere near as good as the London Symphony, then you have one hell of an orchestra..... But anyway I'm just being a snob because I played violin for 8 years. ::)
Who would know?
That's been my point the whole time. Is Snoop Dogg gonna know if you use one of his songs in your mission? Of course not.
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regarding ofp missions i would always consider "custom" music as selfmade music...
if you use any commercial stuff, this somehow means you in a great deal put in that music because itÂ's one of your favourites... not necessarily because it supports the scene and atmo of your mission...
just a thought ;D
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actually, then if all music is copyrighted, whos asked BIS to use the ingame tracks. I haven't read any waivers in the OFP docs that give us the right to use that music.
think about it m8s... :o
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actually, then if all music is copyrighted, whos asked BIS to use the ingame tracks. I haven't read any waivers in the OFP docs that give us the right to use that music.
think about it m8s... :o
Ah, but you aren't distributing that music, are you now? When you make a mission using "BIS" music, the music files aren't packaged into the pbo, because everyone who bought the game already has that music on their computer (and thus paid for it). Nice try though. ;)
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well, i tried ;D
in all seriousness though, there will always be those people who bend the limits. I personally ask all composers if I can use their piece in my misson, and they'll usually allow it.
Thats all the help i can give mates.
:Cheers:
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Going back a bit..
If you put, say, 30 seconds of a song in, and the person who woulnd't have listened to the track normaly, turns out to like the song.. Theres a higher chance of them buying the CD, than if they never heard it because the person who made the mission didn't put it in..
It's like a advert that you don't have to pay anyone for..
And as you've not used the whole of the song, it's unlikely someones gonna, erm, unpbo the mission and listen to 1/4 of a song..
And contrdicting myself, ::), technicly converting a CD to mp3 without permission (Or any other format..) is illegal.. I'm almost 100% sure..
Which is a little weird considering the ammount of MP3 players aroudn these days :P
- Ben
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And contrdicting myself, , technicly converting a CD to mp3 without permission (Or any other format..) is illegal.. I'm almost 100% sure..
Which is a little weird considering the ammount of MP3 players aroudn these days
No, I don't think that is correct. It is legal to convert it to some other format, and listen to that on your computer/ipod/whatever, as long as you don't distribute the music to others. Distribution is the key word, I believe. So as long as you paid for it, you can do whatever you want with the song.... as long as you don't distribute it to other people. Kinda like it is legal to make a burnt backup-copy of software (well, this really only happened back with floppy discs), but it is illegal to give that burnt copy to someone else.
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So what happens if you let someone else listen to it? or via a speaker..?
I still serverly doubt a record company/artist will complain though, unless your making a LOT of money from it (Well, relative to how much most misison take ::))
- Ben
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Playing it is no problem. The key word is really distributing. This means if you air it, put it on your website, give your friends burned versions. And you are in trouble.
But concerning OFP. For most countries it is okay to use 30 sec. And by the way most lawyers are busy chasing the P2P, edonkey, emule... users so they can do not worry about playing OFP. In the worst chase you will get a "nice" letter from the record company including a high penalty as motivation if you not change your mission. Then you delete/ replace the music.
Greetings
Kuro
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so, Kuro,
are you giving us flat our permission until the consequences below happen, or are you saying the moderators will "look the other way" if we use these files in our missions?
Cheers, Tyger
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Playing it is no problem. The key word is really distributing. This means if you air it, put it on your website, give your friends burned versions. And you are in trouble.
Surely though, since in fact these mission files can be de-pboed, then it is relatively easy to construe making a mission of this type as a method of actually 'distributing' the music? Because once the file is depboed then the music is there for you to listen to outside of the mission isnt it?
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Well, I don't think the author's goons will ever be playing OFP, so I wouldn't worry. But I've wondered about this, too... and, to tell you the truth, I ignored it. But I haven't released any missions.... yet! *rubs hands in an evil manner*
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We will not look the other way when you are discussing and actually promoting carrying out something illegal, I.E using copyright protected music in your missions.
As for missions submitted to the missions depot I can't say. Hopefully the reviewers will halt missions that have obvious copyright protected songs in them, if we prevent copyright protected material coming onto OFPEC we don't have to worry about pulling it down if/when someone calls us on it.
We do have quite a few resources on OFPEC however, and even if we impose new routines with the new submissions it's going to be heaps of work going through the existing stuff.
My recommendation: Talk to the artist and ask for permission, or get hold of copyright free music.
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a wise decision at the least, KTottE, and many artists will be kind, if you can get a hold of them. ;)
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§ 1101. Unauthorized fixation and trafficking in sound recordings and music videos
This is the statute that relates to this issue.
(a) Unauthorized Acts. â€" Anyone who, without the consent of the performer or performers involved
(1) fixes the sounds or sounds and images of a live musical performance in a copy or phonorecord, or reproduces copies or phonorecords of such a performance from an unauthorized fixation,
(2) transmits or otherwise communicates to the public the sounds or sounds and images of a live musical performance, or
(3) distributes or offers to distribute, sells or offers to sell, rents or offers to rent, or traffics in any copy or phonorecord fixed as described in paragraph (1), regardless of whether the fixations occurred in the United States,
shall be subject to the remedies provided in sections 502 through 505, to the same extent as an infringer of copyright.
(b) Definition. â€" As used in this section, the term "traffic in" means transport, transfer, or otherwise dispose of, to another, as consideration for anything of value, or make or obtain control of with intent to transport, transfer, or dispose of.
(c)...
(d) State Law Not Preempted. â€" Nothing in this section may be construed to annul or limit any rights or remedies under the common law or statutes of any State.
If you really want to know all about copyright you can read all the statutes here:
http://www.copyright.gov/title17/
I had to read them all for a music business class a while back..
:cheers:
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Technically, since the OFPEC server is in Sweden, swedish law applies. But it also forbids distributing copyrighted material so it's a moot point :).
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Heres a Question IF a person who has made music files, Allows a website to host his music available to anyone (i.e you dont have to log into the site to get access) would using this in a mission be a breach of copyright, i am int he process of contactiong the maker, which has do be done via a middleman [insert long explanation here] but i would like to know
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I would imagine you would need written permission from the maker to distrubute his stuff unless his site says that you are able to use it how you like.
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i have an idea...
to stop people from unpbo-ing a mission and taking the song, you could split the song into 2 or more sound files that will play one right after the other
it would probably be fairly easy for someone who knows what they are doing to make a program that would do this for you as well...
but that would be a significant barrier for those who arent familiar with sound editing
and of course you should still ask the creator of the music for permission and credit them and all that
there's my 2 cents
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see it as downloading music without permission is illegal in the first place, you aren't doing much more by allowing everyone else to download it through your mission, are you?
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Let's just drop the issue already....
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looking back to Sui's comment on page 1:
Anyway... methinks this thread doesn't have too much life left in it...
i think that's a seriously good point, this thread just keeps going....
:P
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Well if anyone knows any websites where you can get roalty and fee free music, legal for use in a mission, then they should post it here. Otherwise, yeah, all good things must come to an end. :(
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edit: removed link... Thought I found some free downloads. they wanted $100 a CD but you could use their stuff royalty free. However, I won't advise spending $100 on a mission... ::)
Might I add another possible solution. I am unsure of the age of some of the mission makers, but if you take a night away from OFP and hit a local music scene you might find a band or two willing to allow in writing use of their music. As an ex-band member, struggling artists were always quick to allow anything that might mean exposure.
They may even write something specifically for your mission taking inspiration from your mission idea. Again, this is assuming you are interested or have a local music scene.
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I just visited a few band websites and some of them had lo-quality downloads available (good enough for OFP) and get this.......
I could not find ANY legal statement restricting distribution. I am assuming they must figure that if they offer a lo-quality dld that everyones going to distribute anyway. So perhaps these 'selected' tracks might be available for use and distro?
Search some of your fav band sites and confirm if you could find any that do the same.
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I Found the same for a band i like, i have just emailed one of the members for permission to use the demo track will let you know the progress
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looking back to Sui's comment on page 1:i think that's a seriously good point, this thread just keeps going....
Ya, like the Energizer Bunny. It just keeps on.
Oh NO... I think I hear the copyright police at my door...