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Author Topic: Mando Missile ArmA (ACCEPTED)  (Read 118660 times)

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Offline Vengeance

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Re: Mando Missile ArmA (ACCEPTED)
« Reply #225 on: 20 Sep 2008, 05:08:40 »
Well thanks anyway guys, the ARMOR players are complaining so I guess I will just outfit some Strykers with Patriot Missiles.  :scratch:

Thanks
Vengeance

Offline Mandoble

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Re: Mando Missile ArmA (ACCEPTED)
« Reply #226 on: 20 Sep 2008, 09:22:24 »
Probably if you put Patriots there to follow ARMOR columns then the AIR guys will start complaining too. You may use Patriots to defend key areas (they actually are also antimissile capable) and you may use some "weaker" missile launcher  type to protect the ARMOR guys. To do so, you may use any of the existing pre-configured launcher types or create your own one so you can tune up/down all the firing parameters until you get something well balanced for your mission.

Offline Mandoble

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Re: Mando Missile ArmA (ACCEPTED)
« Reply #227 on: 20 Sep 2008, 15:10:12 »
In few days, before MMA 2.4 arrival, there will be an intermediate version including:
- Fine control for TV guided missiles (mostly to be used from the Air Support Console).
- Menu action to activate/deactivate targeting hud.
- Compatibility with Spoon Core key handling (while not required).
- Stealth vehicles with little or no chances to be locked on.
- More effective (no more powerfull) detonation script examples.
- Javelin replacement included.
- TorM1 launcher example for AI included.
- Swedish Bill2 and SADARM warheads for missiles included.

Offline Luke

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Re: Mando Missile ArmA (ACCEPTED)
« Reply #228 on: 20 Sep 2008, 20:10:13 »
Will there also be a SA2-style radar/launcher handoff system,
where the radar and launcher are two separate, yet cooperative entities?

Luke
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Offline Mandoble

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Re: Mando Missile ArmA (ACCEPTED)
« Reply #229 on: 21 Sep 2008, 13:58:30 »
Ok, it was planned for 2.4 only but I'll include it in the next version. You will be able to setup main radars sharing info with launchers, you will be able also to control main radar ranges so you might set them depending also on a power supply vehicle or installation (if destroyed, range goes to 0, if repaired range goes to normal, for example). With this you may have a radar building or vehicle, several launchers and the conditions you want to set the range of the radar unit.

Offline Luke

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Re: Mando Missile ArmA (ACCEPTED)
« Reply #230 on: 21 Sep 2008, 19:25:30 »
Does that mean that the range is a scalar of the damage?
([1-getdammage] * initial_range)

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Offline Mandoble

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Re: Mando Missile ArmA (ACCEPTED)
« Reply #231 on: 21 Sep 2008, 19:53:21 »
That means, as said, that the criteria for that is up to the mission designer.

Offline Luke

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Re: Mando Missile ArmA (ACCEPTED)
« Reply #232 on: 21 Sep 2008, 20:47:27 »
Does this also mean that a unit will be able to trak/ sort more than one target at a time?

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Offline Mandoble

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Re: Mando Missile ArmA (ACCEPTED)
« Reply #233 on: 21 Sep 2008, 21:15:45 »
For the particuar case of your Sa2, was this able to track and lock on more than one target at a time?

Offline Luke

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Re: Mando Missile ArmA (ACCEPTED)
« Reply #234 on: 22 Sep 2008, 03:16:38 »
No:
(copied from wikipedia here):
Quote from:  Wikipedia.org

The V-750 [(the SA2's missile)] is a two-stage missile, consisting of a solid-fuel booster and a storable liquid-fuel upper stage burning red fuming nitric acid as the oxidizer, and kerosene as the fuel. The booster fires for about 4-5 seconds, and the main engine for about 22 seconds, by which time the missile is traveling at about Mach 3. The booster mounts four large cropped-delta wing fins with small control surfaces in their trailing edges, used to control roll. The upper stage has smaller cropped-deltas near the middle of the airframe, with a smaller set of control surfaces are at the extreme rear and (in most models) much smaller fins on the nose.

The missiles are guided using radio control signals from the guidance computers at the site, sent on one of three channels. The earlier S-75 models received their commands via two sets of four small antennas in front of the forward fins, while the D models and on used four much larger strip antennas running between the forward and middle fins. The guidance system at an S-75 site can handle only one target at a time, but can direct three missiles against it. Additional missiles could be fired against the same target after one or more missiles of the first salvo had completed their run and the radio channel was freed.

The missile typically mounts a 195 kg (430 lb) fragmentation warhead, with proximity, contact and command fusing. The warhead has a lethal radius of about 65 m (215 ft) at lower altitudes, while at higher altitudes the thinner atmosphere allows for a wider radius of up to 250 m (820 ft). The missile itself is accurate to about 75 m (250 ft), which explains why two were typically fired in a salvo. One version, the SA-2E, mounted a 295 kg (650 lb) nuclear warhead of an estimated 15 kt yield, or a conventional warhead of similar weight.

Typical range for the missile is about 45 km (30 miles), with a maximum altitude around 20,000 m (60,000 ft). The radar and guidance system imposed a fairly long short-range cutoff of about 500-1,000 m (3,000 ft), making them fairly safe to attack at low level.

However, the beloved Tor-M1 is able to track two (and in more advanced variants four) targets and engage them.

(The Tor-M1 is able to have four missiles in flight, two per locked target, as is the later variants,
with eight missiles and four locked targets.)

Quote from wikipedia (found here)
Quote from:  Wikipedia.org

The closest foreign analogues to the Tor missile system in function and operation are systems like the British Rapier missile and French Crotale missile systems. The Tor system is mobile and self propelled using the 9A330 fighting vehicle which acts as an autonomous transporter, launcher, and radar unit or TLAR (similar to but not a TELAR as it does not erect the missile to a launch position). The 9A330 TLAR uses GM-355 chassis though the later Tor-M1 uses an improved GM-5955 chassis developed and produced by MMZ.[7] In addition to the self-propelled, tracked vehicle there are also static and towed versions of the Tor, and the latest Tor-M2E has been demonstrated with a wheeled chassis. The TLAR has a crew of four including a driver seated up front and three operators inside.

The TLAR is arranged in a similar fashion to the 9K22 Tunguska (Russian: Тунгуска) air defense system, it features a turret with a surveillance radar on top and a tracking radar up front with 8 ready to fire missiles stored vertically between the two radar. The surveillance radar is an E/F-band pulse doppler radar with a parabolic antenna mechanically scanned in azimuth with a 32 degree sector view[citation needed]. The radar has an average power output of 1.5 kW providing a maximum detection range of 25 km/16 mi, an F-15 type aircraft at an altitude of up to 6 km had a detection probability of 0.8 at this range.[3] The radar can detect up to 48 targets and track ten of them, including IFF functionality; the IFF antenna is mounted above the search radar. Later variants of the Tor system incorporate a modern frequency scanned phased array as a replacement for the older parabolic antenna.

The target engagement radar is a G/H and later K-band pulse doppler radar with an electronically scanned phased-array antenna in azimuth. The radar has an average power output of 0.6 kW providing a maximum detection range of 20 km/12 mi. An F-15 type aircraft had a detection probability of 0.8 at this range.[3] The radar can track one target (later two (Tor-M1) and then four (Tor-M2E)) while simultaneously guiding up to two missiles (later four (Tor-M1) and then eight (Tor-M2E). There is also a small antenna on the top of the target engagement radar to communicate with missiles after launch and before they are acquired by the engagement radar. Together these radars carry the NATO reporting name "Scrum Half". The surveillance radar can be folded down horizontally when travelling, to reduce the height of the vehicle, and the tracking radar can partially rotate away from vertical to reduce its height. There is an optical tracking system to complement the target engagement radar and allow engagements in a heavy ECM environment.

Targets can be acquired and tracked while the TLAR is moving. Missiles can be fired only when in a stationary position. The reaction time (from target detection to engagement) is described as 5-8 seconds depending on the variant; however, reaction time is somewhat longer (around 10 seconds) whilst in motion and firing in short halts. An auxiliary power unit (APU) is fitted so that the main engine can be shut down while the radar and missile system continue to operate when stationary, enabling long periods of readiness. The digital computers allowed for a higher degree of automation that any previous Soviet system of its type. Target threat classification is automatic and the system can be operated with little operator input, if desired. The high performance computing system combined with a phased array radar are the main reasons for the system's high degree of accuracy, ability to intercept small, fast and highly maneuverable targets, and the very fast reaction times of the system. It is equipped with NBC (nuclear, biological and chemical) protection. The price per unit was quoted as $25 million in 2007[citation needed].

Typically a battery of four Tor vehicles is accompanied by the mobile Ranzhir-M (Russian: "Ранжир-М") command center. It allows for efficient allocation of tasks between the individual Tor-1M crews and allows each TLAR to be linked into a wider air defense system.

Variants

9K330 "Tor" with the 9M330 missile, minimum range 2 km (1.2 mi), introduced in 1986
9K331 "Tor-M" with the 9M331 missile, minimum range 1.5 km (0.9 mi), introduced in 1991, with greatly improved missile accuracy and the ability to engage two targets simultaneously
9K331M "Tor-M1", "Tor-M1T" with the 9M331 missile, minimum range 1.5 km (0.9 mi)
9K332 "Tor-M2", "Tor-MTA", "Tor-MTB", "Tor-MTS" with the 9M331 missile and a new surveillance radar, minimum range 1 km (0.6 mi)

And h- is gonna kill me for bandwith.

@ h-,
The quotes there are long, I know. Am just request to leave the quotes up for 1 week from time of this post,
then tear them down and people can look at the Wikipedia links.

Luke

EDIT: BTW,

1) Will the Missiles be subject to range limits separate from the radar?
That is, could the radar produce a "radar lock" signal on a target without a missile?

2) If so could the radar site be used as an early warning radar?

3) Is there a way preventing sa2s from one site firing on a target, when designated from a separate sights radar?

4) I trust this, but to just make sure,
will stealth classes be hidden from these handoff radars?
and will they show up as targets on player MCCs and RCCs?

5) Lastly, will radar be stand-alone/air-attachable?
This could open up the option for AWAC intel.
(With little color-coded mapmarker dots,
perhaps with a descriptive mouse-over tooltip.)

All just afterthoughts.
« Last Edit: 22 Sep 2008, 03:39:20 by Luke »
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Offline Planck

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Re: Mando Missile ArmA (ACCEPTED)
« Reply #235 on: 22 Sep 2008, 03:56:03 »
Whether h- is happy with the long quotes is beside the point, a link to the wiki article would have been sufficient to illustrate your point or pass on information.

Please bear this in mind for the next time you wish to reference external information .... now where did I put my large bamboo cane ....... I know I left it here somewhere ...... tchhhh!   :dunno:


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Offline Luke

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Re: Mando Missile ArmA (ACCEPTED)
« Reply #236 on: 22 Sep 2008, 05:29:52 »
h- was a mix-up.

I thought he was the one prowling about waiting to test his weapons of doom on those that post too-long quotes.

I can see that I was wrong.

It is you I must fear!!

Luke
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Offline Mandoble

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Re: Mando Missile ArmA (ACCEPTED)
« Reply #237 on: 22 Sep 2008, 10:34:53 »
1 - Yes and no. Each launcher has the range of the missile itself and the radar might have a different range. But the radar will not lock on targets out of the range of the launchers. Theorically you might set the launchers with relative short range far away of the long range main radar and in that case a launcher might be able to engage a target while the others dont.

2 - The radar creates a trigger, and you provide the name of the trigger as a parameter, so you may do whatever you want with that trigger once it is created, EWR, etc.

3 - There is no coordination between different radar sites. Anyway, if a target is being attacked by main sam site A, there is no reason to prevent main sam site B to engage the same bandit.

4 - What is an RCC?? Actually stealth targets cannot be detected by MCC or AI launchers, you can lock on them using visual launchers for players with boresight (typically mapped to left - control key) lock on at short ranges < 3Km. I might also include little chances for real detection using MCC and/or AI launchers.

5 - These radars are attached to objects or to vehicles/planes, and the script moves the "radar" with the plane. As said in answer 2, you have a trigger to playwith. You may use it to create an AWACS display, while actually you have something pretty similar with the Mando Missile Command system (do not confuse this with the MCC).

In the current next version, the launchers attached to a main radar are able to engage different targets so they dont fire in battery against the very same target unless there is a single target in the area. This doesnt match the Sa-2 limitations.

EDIT: The above applies unless the SAM site is anti-missile capable, if so, any incoming missile will have priority over any other existing target, so there you would see all the launchers firing a full battery of missiles against the same target (the missile).
« Last Edit: 22 Sep 2008, 12:54:55 by Mandoble »

Offline Luke

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Re: Mando Missile ArmA (ACCEPTED)
« Reply #238 on: 23 Sep 2008, 00:31:29 »
RCC -- Radar control console (like MCC w/o the missiles).

If the radar does not lock on to the target, is there a way for the radar to "see" the target.

That is, have it in its trigger range as an available target?

Perhaps this could be tied to a radar warnning receiver,
or a tone-based warning system on the aircraft.
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Offline USM-CPT.Dyson

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Re: Mando Missile ArmA (ACCEPTED)
« Reply #239 on: 23 Sep 2008, 04:49:08 »
I'm confused a bit here. Let me see if I indeed have this right.

So you are adding RCCs. These RCCs have the ability to communicate to multiple SAM launchers. Currently, there are no preventatives to stop SAM launchers from launching multiple missiles against the same target. As far as the RCCs, they are player or AI operated and only serve the purpose to detecting targets and transmitting the data to the connected SAM launchers. If the mission designer sets up a maximum range for the SAM missiles, but sets up a longer range for the RADAR, targets can be tracked before missiles can be launched.

Now, a few questions on what can be done to improve or add realism to the system. Is it possible to have SAM sites communicate to each other (ie Each SAM site selects a target and fires accordingly as well as communicating target locations)? As far as MCCs and RCCs, can the mission designer limit players to views inside the launcher or radar site (building?)?

Lastly, I have a few more questions and comments not specifically related to the MMA 2.4 release. Reading through articles about the Javelin I did identify that the "direct" mode is used against buildings. Here is a short quote  :P

Quote
The system takes a top-attack flight profile against armored vehicles (attacking the top armor which is generally thinner) but can also take a direct-attack mode for use against buildings or fortifications. This missile also has the ability to engage helicopters in the direct attack mode.[1] The missile reaches a peak altitude of 150m in top attack mode and 50m in direct fire mode. The missile is equipped with an imaging infrared seeker. The tandem warhead is fitted with two shaped charges: a precursor warhead to detonate any explosive reactive armor and a primary warhead to penetrate base armor.

Will this be added in 2.4 or will this be something that mission makers can add in? Also , the Hellfire used in this version of the Cobra uses semi-active laser targeting. Operators can launch a hellfire, duck behind cover, and guide the missile into the target. It's not until the Apache Longbow with the Longbow Hellfire that operators can use MMW radar technology to lock on to and identify targets. So the only options would be "remote", and "AG Mode". AG Mode would let you take control of the missile at any point to steer it in any direction. The Hellfire also allows LOBL and LOAL modes (direct and top attack)

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