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Author Topic: The mission scoring "problem" - the matter of taste  (Read 7568 times)

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Acecombat

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Re:The mission scoring "problem" - the matter of taste
« Reply #30 on: 22 Apr 2005, 12:59:41 »
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On a side note, karatan/ace/everyone else.... I'd ask that you simmer down a little, especially in regards to accusations about our reviewers motives.

Sui i dont have any complaints about your reviewers , karantan obviously has issues thats the very reason why he even made the thread. He's truly having problems coming to grips with the review system , i guess that was why he sent Anmac an abusive PM after his mission got reviewed here , and frankly speaking i dont see why such people's missions are even reviewed its a waste of time. Ungrateful people do not deserve our time , we waste our time trying to play a mission no matter how crap it might and then post a honest review over what we thought of it and this is what we get in return sniddish comments and abusive PM's.

Thats all from me , the reason i posted this here is quite clear mr karantan made this topic because of personal issues he's had in the past with the system rather then being worried about other peoples stuff.

Offline Baddo

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Re:The mission scoring "problem" - the matter of taste
« Reply #31 on: 22 Apr 2005, 14:18:29 »
Sui i dont have any complaints about your reviewers , karantan obviously has issues thats the very reason why he even made the thread. He's truly having problems coming to grips with the review system , i guess that was why he sent Anmac an abusive PM after his mission got reviewed here , and frankly speaking i dont see why such people's missions are even reviewed its a waste of time. Ungrateful people do not deserve our time , we waste our time trying to play a mission no matter how crap it might and then post a honest review over what we thought of it and this is what we get in return sniddish comments and abusive PM's.

Thats all from me , the reason i posted this here is quite clear mr karantan made this topic because of personal issues he's had in the past with the system rather then being worried about other peoples stuff.

I do agree with him/her that some things in missions are not crystal clear when judging what is good or bad in a mission. So he/she has a good point there.

Please note: I am not saying anything else. I have nothing against anyone on this site.

 :)

P.S. Because it's a matter of opinion, nobody gets offended of what someone says about missions, OK?

 Now I will :-X

Offline The-Architect

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Re:The mission scoring "problem" - the matter of taste
« Reply #32 on: 22 Apr 2005, 14:27:41 »
Ok, I just read this whole thread (first time for me) and I have a few things to say.

- Briefing is not good if it doesn't have many pages + pictures.

This is not true. Not in my case anyway. I hold the opinion that there are two different kinds of briefing. The detailed briefing and the BIS standard briefing. I don't score one lower than the other. I will score one low if its crap though. "Kill the bad guys." Just won't cut it. Likewise 20 pages of "how's your father." in the notes section is equally bad practice.

The single thing that could improve the missions depot the most, IMO, would be having SOME kind of organization of the missions, aside from what is currently available. What I mean is, what if I want to play a flying mission? Well, I'd like to be able to hit a button and only see those kinds of missions. In that case, I would download whatever seems interesting, including missions with 'lower' scores, such as 4-5. Or if I wanted to play with WWII units, or a specific mod or island, etc. It would be hard to implement, and I'm not even sure what catagories you would organize them into, but that would make it so much easier to find the style of mission you want. Perhaps even a simple word search of the mission descriptions would work well for this.

This is a bloody good idea if you ask me. I don't know how the big wigs would implement it but I'd help in any way I could. Why don't you put it to them?


Now onto Karantan. Listen carefully.
When BIS released their game it came with single player missions, campaigns and multiplayer missions that were at a certain level of quality. As soon as people had learned how to use the editor, they started pumping out their own versions. Unfortunatly most people can not maintain the same standard of quality that the original game makers gave us.

BIS set a benchmark, however, and unfortunatly for the small fry out there, that is what most of us expect to see when we load up an offering. Why should I play a mission without sound files, lip-sync or even correct radio use, when BIS showed me how easy it is to achieve?

If they could do it, why do I have to see Alpha speaking but have the radio message come from Delta Black 4? Why should I have to drive down a road which some fool hasn't even bothered to check if the sections have linked up? If BIS have done it, why should I have to read Cur_sp or whatever at the top of a briefing? People like you make me sick.
You dump a load of units and objects into the editor save it, release it as final and then complain when people who know what they are talking about, tell you its not up to the standard that most other people can achieve. Hell, if you're a noob, that's fine, just don't expect to get praised for something if its rubbish.

I'm so mad I don't know what to add.  >:( >:( >:(
« Last Edit: 22 Apr 2005, 14:41:34 by The-Architect »
James Andrew Wilkinson 1977 - 2005 R.I.P.
"If it ain't the friggin' incoming it's the friggin' outgoing. Only difference is who gets the friggin' grease, and that ain't no friggin' difference at all."

Offline macguba

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Re:The mission scoring "problem" - the matter of taste
« Reply #33 on: 22 Apr 2005, 15:04:58 »
That the Missions Depot would be improved by being much more searchable is something that I think everybody would agree on and it has already been discussed.    Unfortunately, there are three hurdles which make it impracticable.

Firstly, it's a lot of work to create.   More than it looks.   You need a complex structure with heirarchies.    How do you divide up islands, for example?   Just BIS/user?   Or temperate/jungle/desert/arctic?   What if you want to search on non-BIS temperate?    And what about mixed islands?    And what about maps that are mostly land, and those that are mostly sea?   Each island would have to have to be in half a dozen different categories.   And how are you going to handle other addons?

Secondly, it is much more difficult to categorise missions than it might first appear.    For example, imagine a mission like this.    Objective 1:  fly your A10 to take out the tanks.  Objective 2:  get hit, bail out successfully and link up with the resistance.  Objective 3:  help the Res assassinate the general.  Now is that flying, blackops, fighting with Res, or all three?   All three, you say?    Fine ... but then how many mission (or Objective) types are there?     Returning to the first point that the system must be flexible enough to have categories added or combined as time passes and the community develops.

Thirdly, even if you can pin down a reasonable set of definitions, and code the whole thing up, you're still left with the insuperable problem of 500 uncategorised missions.   To make the thing worthwhile each one would have be be played again by a staffer to make sure it went in all of the right categories.     Historically we have struggled to cope with reviewing new missions, having to check back through the whole corpus would be an enormous task.   Even if it could be done it might take a year.

In other words, it's much, much harder than you might think.   The good news, admittedly on a distant horizon, is that when OFP2 comes out we are likely to be able to create a better system than the one we have now.  It is unlikely to be perfect for the reasons outlined above, and will not be retrospective, but for OFP2 missions you should be able to search more effectively than you can now.

Bear in mind that OFPEC missions are already more searchable than those on some other, otherwise excellent, OFP sites.
« Last Edit: 22 Apr 2005, 15:05:38 by macguba »
Plenty of reviewed ArmA missions for you to play

Offline Kendo J

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Re:The mission scoring "problem" - the matter of taste
« Reply #34 on: 22 Apr 2005, 15:13:25 »


When BIS released their game it came with single player missions, campaigns and multiplayer missions that were at a certain level of quality. As soon as people had learned how to use the editor, they started pumping out their own versions. Unfortunatly most people can not maintain the same standard of quality that the original game makers gave us.


I'm so mad I don't know what to add.  >:( >:( >:(

Chill out yo!
it took me ages to get to something of BIS quality mission making... now I have figured out most of the simple things you mention callsigns and cutscenes etc the game still rocks and you have to give people a chance! I am sure about 99% of the mission in my editor suck ass
but some are good... there are also loads of amazing missions out there!!!!!!!!!
I think the scoring is quite fair
and when it is harsh on me... even better because I just want to prove I can make good missions next time round!

Regards kendo
« Last Edit: 22 Apr 2005, 15:14:00 by Kendo J »

Offline rado1265

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Re:The mission scoring "problem" - the matter of taste
« Reply #35 on: 22 Apr 2005, 15:21:43 »
Hm, here're some interesting replies, in which i will try to reply myself, though I don't see any meaning for this anymore.

845682, yeah, that's classical "clash of the tastes".  But if there's no that number, there's no that clash, only detailed, well maid (I hope) review.

Homefry, Sui, I'm familiarised with your Reviewing and Scoring System, but, no one argues with that, I just see that big, fat number, or mission categorising system if you want, kind of obsolete.  Please, read more carefully what was my intention.

Sui, you said that you always welcome and consider the suggestions.  That's fine, but did you ever accept any?  And about that acusations or whatever, I didn't start it, but someone out there can't forget some things, and can't let them go.  And I will no more argue with him, because no matter how I try to explain some things to him, it doesen't work, because he's deeply frustrated with something.

Baddo, I'm he ;).  You seem to understand what I mean and I thank you for that.  And don't be such a sissy, it's your site to!

The - Architect, I will just say to you that all what you have said fits in the review for some very bad maded mission or something like that, not here.  And about your sickness ... well, be my guest, kiddo, and I don't want even to know the reason for that sickness ...

And here's another deep question from me: should I "solve" it?

Offline macguba

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Re:The mission scoring "problem" - the matter of taste
« Reply #36 on: 22 Apr 2005, 15:40:23 »
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you said that you always welcome and consider the suggestions.  That's fine, but did you ever accept any?
Yes.    I'll give you one recent example.   The beta testing party was not a direct suggestion, and some time ago we had considered how to revitalise the beta testing board, but the spark that made it all happen was an IM somebody sent to me suggesting revitalisation of the beta board.

An older example is the sticky topic at the top of the General board.   At the time I was a fairly new member of ofpec, not on the staff or anything.     I wrote a draft, posted it, brought it to the mods' attention, amended it (in fact it took some negotiation between several parties before we had something everybody was happy with) and then it was stickied and locked.

It is true that many suggestions are not implemented.   Some are just bad ideas;  some are too divisive;  some have their merits but are not consistent with already exists; some are too much work to be practical; some are technically impossible.    Many are things which have already been thought of but which cannot be carried out for one or more of these reasons.    

But let there be no doubt:  whenever somebody comes up with a good idea that can be implemented, it is done.    Such an approach is central to everthing ofpec is.     So if anybody has a good idea, please say so.    All suggestions are welcome, whatever the end result.

OFPEC:   By[/i] the community, for[/size] the community.
[/b]
« Last Edit: 22 Apr 2005, 16:10:40 by macguba »
Plenty of reviewed ArmA missions for you to play

ProudPotter2490

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Re:The mission scoring "problem" - the matter of taste
« Reply #37 on: 22 Apr 2005, 16:21:39 »
Hey guys!
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Sui, you said that you always welcome and consider the suggestions.  That's fine, but did you ever accept any?
I'm sorry karentan, I completely disagree. Whether or not Sui was part of the production of the site isn't to my knowledge. However, he is a Global Administrator and plays an invaluable role in the site.

Think of OFPEC like a business. The owners (Noon416 and buBBa, I belive?) hire him as a sort of manager. He will take in ideas and if he thinks they are sensible he will consider them. If they're fit to be considered and thus executed, he'll put it forward to the owners and they will take it from there. At least, that's one of his jobs. There are many ideas out there that are moronic, unrealistic or difficult to impliment. Unfortunatly for Sui and others he's one of the people who has to filter these ideas through and many of them don't get past this net.

Imagine if those at the top of the heirarchy accepted every or most ideas put forward! It's not a promising future for this site is it? Thankfully we've got good ol' chaps like Sui to prevent the site from completely crashing.

OFPEC has turned into more than just a fansite. It's more than just a resource. More than just a social gathering club. It's turned into a Business. This business is what of the primary factors as to why Operation Flashpoint is still alive today. Imagine a world without OFPEC. I can guaruntee that after a couple of months the game would be up on your shelf collecting dust. I can tell you that Sui is one of the people preventing OFPEC and OFP from falling. Even if he has to reject your idea's, my idea's and John Smith's idea's. If it's for the good of the site, I'm happy.
ProudPotter2490 :afro:

PS: I think it might be relevent to attract your attentsion to this rule you accepted in the Terms Of Agreement:-
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If you have an issue with a Global Administrator, tough!
« Last Edit: 22 Apr 2005, 16:23:17 by ProudPotter2490 »

Offline rado1265

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Re:The mission scoring "problem" - the matter of taste
« Reply #38 on: 22 Apr 2005, 16:59:11 »
Now when I'm back from my launch I read some of the replies more carefully, and discovered that The - Architect try to compare or draw an equality between ours and BIS missions.

That's nonsens! They had years of time, a team of specialists, "the means" ... we have weeks, and in that weeks the time as the job and the fammily allows it (in my case anyway).  Now I'm rather courious with which number will you, The - Architect, rate a BIS mission, let's say ... Convoy.  And if you try to compare our missions with the BIS ones, why then your missions don't meet that standards?

ProudPotter2490, when I ask that Sui, I didn't meant him in person, but the whole Admin.  And don't call the ideas from the others moronic, have a little respect, though I don't think you meant me.  And I know that they can't accept all the suggestions that comes up, but I've get the impression, that they're totally stiffed regarding this.  Now macguba has shown that it isn't so.  And you writing like I have something against Sui or someone else.  For your information, I have not.

Now I really don't like this anymore.  This has turned into pointless, meaningless debate.
« Last Edit: 22 Apr 2005, 17:00:16 by karantan »

ProudPotter2490

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Re:The mission scoring "problem" - the matter of taste
« Reply #39 on: 22 Apr 2005, 17:21:27 »
Hey.
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when I ask that Sui, I didn't meant him in person, but the whole Admin.
Well, replace Sui with all the admins prior to what I said previously.

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don't call the ideas from the others moronic, have a little respect,
I've seen ideas out there that I consider to be moronic, idiotic or just plain stupid. Bear in mind that's my opinion.

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I don't think you meant me.
I didn't mean you. This idea is just very unrealistic. It wont happen i'm sorry to say. But if the day comes, i'll say you were right then... But you'll have alot of waiting to do I am sure.

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And I know that they can't accept all the suggestions that comes up, but I've get the impression,
Well i've told you why they can't accept all or most idea's in my last post. The administation must be very selective on which ideas they choose, for the good of their site.

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And you writing like I have something against Sui or someone else.  For your information, I have not.
I think you have. Against the administration including Sui for not accepting as many ideas as you'd like. Obviously i'm not saying you're on a vendetta against the administration, but it's an issue that annoys you a little ;).
ProudPotter2490.

Offline rado1265

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Re:The mission scoring "problem" - the matter of taste
« Reply #40 on: 22 Apr 2005, 17:56:59 »
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I think you have.

You thinking wrongly.

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Against the administration including Sui for not accepting as many ideas as you'd like.

That's not true.  But surely I'd like for them to be a little more openminded (selfish me ;D).

Offline bedges

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Re:The mission scoring "problem" - the matter of taste
« Reply #41 on: 22 Apr 2005, 18:07:16 »
mmm the difference between 'good' and 'bad'... ah i remember the hours of study i did on the subject, in the context of fine art. answer i came up with? it's all subjective; one man's chalk is another man's cheese. this goes for pretty much all things which are 'consumed' - food, films, music, ofp missions, the whole shabang.

it's all down to standards. the architect raised this point, using BIS missions as the standard, which i agree (since we're all used to playing them) is a good comparison to begin with. karantan makes a fair point about the 'means' of mission making - i for example am a fair distance away from being able to record my own lipsync files. i'd like to, certainly, but at present i'm making missions without. are they bad because of that? perhaps, but that wouldn't be the only reason.

getting back to the original point made, concerning the scoring system. i think it was maybe gubes who posted the reviewing 'rules' a while back, and i was struck by just how much weight was put on the technical aspects of the thing just working, nevermind gameplay - are there missing addons, are the objectives ticking off properly, all that stuff. i think 'gameplay' and 'enjoyment-factor' were stuck in at the very end as points to round off on, not to base a score upon, and it was stressed even then that these were subjective evaluations.

do the scores help? i suppose they do, although many posters above have mentioned that the reviews (and comments by other players) are more important and realistic indicators of whether a mission is worth downloading than the score the reviewer gives.

tastes will differ. to take a good (albeit sacrilegious) example, 'unimpossible mission' has achieved a 9/10 score. well deserved, for many reasons. however (sorry gubes) i have played it all of twice, couldn't get past the first two minutes, and so haven't played it again. i certainly wouldn't award it a 9/10 if that score was based on my enjoyment of it. now whether that's because i'm not good enough at playing the game, or too willing to give up, or because it's too hard, is largely immaterial, because as a mission designer i recognise the quality of the editing, the storytelling, and the fact that he was trying to explore a concept using flashpoint. chalk and cheese, once again.

'abandoned armies' by thobson has attracted similar attention from the regulars, for similar reasons - trying to push the boundaries of what is possible, while still retaining that storytelling, atmospheric potential that flashpoint offers. many players would take one look and say "fuck running around an island for days on end, i want to blow things up! where are the objectives? what am i supposed to do?!" but as far as providing an atmospheric free-roaming experience goes, he's bang on the money.

there are those players who refuse to play missions requiring addons, those players who insist on playing only ultra-realistic combat simulators, those who shout the loudest when sci-fi is mentioned ;)

for my part, i thoroughly enjoyed 'knight jump' by karantan, so much so that i 'borrowed' one of the ideas in the mission (collecting a radio and some documents), just because it was so well done, and it's now in pretty much every mission i've made. i can't remember what score his mission got, and frankly i'm not sure it matters. all i know is i downloaded it, played it, and enjoyed it immensely.

at the end of the day, i think that's all it comes down to. will players avoid low-scored missions? perhaps they will. will some players download them regardless of the score? perhaps they will. does the current system work? does it really matter? we all have access to an immense source of varied talent here at our fingertips. 'good', 'bad'... doesn't matter, so long as it works. this is an editing site, first and foremost, with the benefit of being able to see the results of that hard work in the same place. we'll all judge for ourselves in the end whether we like it or not, scores or no scores.

Acecombat

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Re:The mission scoring "problem" - the matter of taste
« Reply #42 on: 22 Apr 2005, 18:07:43 »
Oh the whole world is wrong and mr. Karantan is always right  .... you havent changed one bit exactly as you were the last time i saw you on the opflash forums trying to tell me that i got the review down wrong anf then started flame baiting me with useless stuff which didnt even belong there or had anything to do with a review.

You sir are the biggest loser i've ever met in my whole mission reviewing career , i've seen plenty of people whove got bad reviews but they've learnt something from it , you keep talking about writing up detailed reviews to know where the problem is but DID you kind sir ever managed to take that all IN and take it constructively instead of dissing the reviewers and telling them that their standards are not correct.  If your so god damn above everyones level then better not submit your stuff anywhere thatd be my advice. Anmac gave you sound advice along with a nice review and all you gave him was a ABUSIVE PM , i gave you good advice just like i give it to any one who's mission i review and you were the one of the few arrogant berks who decided to flame bait me and then bring out your wierdo arguments over how missions are to be done and what shouldnt be done in them , i still remember fondly one of your crappy logic , like not including music files in mission as according to you that was 'stupid' right? I guess plenty of people in the community are stupid for doing this  , nevermind the fact that people enjoy their missions even more as music adds atmosphere and drama to a situation. Ah but thats just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to your oxymoronic logic on the 'Do's and Dont's' of Mission Making.

Heres the mission i'm talking about incase some of you missed it:
http://www.ofpec.com/missions_depot/index.php?ID=1182

I could post the link to the opflash forums as well but cant find it at the moment.

Offline macguba

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Re:The mission scoring "problem" - the matter of taste
« Reply #43 on: 22 Apr 2005, 18:36:36 »
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i think it was maybe gubes who posted the reviewing 'rules' a while back,
Actually it was Artak, Missions Depot Admin.    ;)

I confess I'd forgotten about that, otherwise I would have mentioned it myself.   The thread is here.     The man himself is in the middle of moving house atm.

It's noticeable that "enjoyment" is one factor out of eight listed (which list being incomplete, consisting solely of examples) under one section out of five.    

In this context, Un-Impossible is a good example.  It was specifically designed so that many people would not get past the first two minutes.    For them, the enjoyment is nil.    However, if you do get into the mission (and it's not actually as hard as it feels, once you've played it a few times and stopped for a think) then many people have reported enjoying it a great deal.     It's not really fair to user-rate a mission unless you have finished it.

Another point I forget to mention is that reviewers normally play a mission serveral times and/or explore it in the mission editor.   As a rule they don't just play it once then rate it.  
« Last Edit: 22 Apr 2005, 18:43:08 by macguba »
Plenty of reviewed ArmA missions for you to play

Offline rado1265

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Re:The mission scoring "problem" - the matter of taste
« Reply #44 on: 22 Apr 2005, 18:47:24 »
Hurrraaa, Ace, bravo, you solve it all!
« Last Edit: 22 Apr 2005, 18:47:55 by karantan »