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Author Topic: The mission scoring "problem" - the matter of taste  (Read 7578 times)

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Offline rado1265

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The mission scoring "problem" - the matter of taste
« on: 21 Apr 2005, 15:13:02 »
I still remember when I came on this site for the first time, and download some missions for playing (didn't we all start like this ;D), and to my surprise discovered that the missions are score rated.  From the beginning I hold this practice strange and discriminating.  Why?

You know; where's the reviewers "right" to decide for me (or even in the name of the site) which mission is good, and which is bad; I mean, the taste of that reviewer can be a diametrally oposite to mine.  One little exsample: some reviewers hate to do a few more paces across the map, they hold that boring, but I don't mind to do a little treking, because I appreciate the realism, so I know that you can't be parashooted right into the middle of the enemy base.  Secondly, the mission makers knows what the reviewers favorite and what don't favorite (the reviewers personal tastes comes here involved), so some of them ("the addicted to the good score" I call them) adept their missions to the reviewers likings to get a better score.  For me this is a (in)direct influence on mission making proces (that's a lot out there, beleive me), and in my opinion we already have some missions, which they had "suffered" in terms of quality because of that.

And those scores are much to influentual; a mission with a 2/10 score have a barely a hundred downloads, a 9/10 mission over a thousand!  But what if that "2/10 mission" isn't so bad, and a "9/10 mission" isn't so good?  I have the opurtunity to play some, mildly saying, awfull "8/10 missions", and some "3/10"s, which were quite good, much better than that "8/10"s, but that's again can only be the matter of - my taste.  So some missions can be-are overlooked because of that mission scoring sistem influence.

My suggestion: leave out that number scoring sistem -it will not be the end of the world because of that change-, and stay only with the (more detailed if needed) mission reviewing; and let the player to decide (thru the playing offcourse) which mission is for him good, playable, enjoyable, and which is not. On that way the missions players can (again) feel more "in to it", and I asure you, the Mission Comments will (again) become more lively.  The reviewer can-may point out (if he really must, I rather see them "neutral", eg that they're strictly "technical") his likes or dislikes with the mission thru the review, but in form of personal-technical opinions, not in form of suggestions (which some of them oftenly do, like "this is a must", or "avoid it like a plague" -  sic!).

So, what do you think???

Offline Pilot

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Re:The mission scoring "problem" - the matter of taste
« Reply #1 on: 21 Apr 2005, 15:28:16 »
I have to respectfully disagree.

I'm sure a Missions Depot member will be around shortly to give you an official answer, but I will give you my opinion, anyway. ;) A 2/10 mission usually earns that score from errors that occur in the mission, not necessarily the taste of the reviewer.  Likewise, a mission earns an 8/10 or 9/10 because everything works right, it is immersive, and it has atmoshpere.  Usually a higher score means (to me anyway) that the author has put an effort to his mission.  He made sure it works, maybe even had it beta-tested.  A lower score tells me the author didn't care much about making his mission work as well as it should.

You are right, some of the lower scoring missions are enjoyable to play once in awhile.  But that doesn't mean they aren't missing some needed polishing up.

Also, I have heard there is a scoring system in place for members of OFPEC to score the missions.  If you think a mission deserves a higher score, score it yourself!

-Student Pilot

Offline rado1265

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Re:The mission scoring "problem" - the matter of taste
« Reply #2 on: 21 Apr 2005, 15:48:56 »
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A 2/10 mission usually earns that score from errors that occur in the mission, not necessarily the taste of the reviewer.  Likewise, a mission earns an 8/10 or 9/10 because everything works right, it is immersive, and it has atmoshpere.

As I said; all that can be explained in the reviewing, so it can be also explained without that number.

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Also, I have heard there is a scoring system in place for members of OFPEC to score the missions.  If you think a mission deserves a higher score, score it yourself!

You get it all wrong, Student Pilot; I ... akhm ... hate that number scoring system, so why should I score myself?
« Last Edit: 21 Apr 2005, 15:51:06 by karantan »

Offline Pilot

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Re:The mission scoring "problem" - the matter of taste
« Reply #3 on: 21 Apr 2005, 16:00:49 »
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As I said; all that can be explained in the reviewing, so it can be also explained without that number.

I don't know about anyone else, but I use that number as a quick reference on the mission's quality.  Would you want to waste your time reading a review only to find out the mission would be considered a 0 or 1?

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You get it all wrong, Student Pilot; I ... akhm ... hate that number scoring system, so why should I score myself?

It was just a suggestion.  Sometimes you have to use the system to fix any problems caused by the system.

-Student Pilot

Offline rado1265

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Re:The mission scoring "problem" - the matter of taste
« Reply #4 on: 21 Apr 2005, 16:07:46 »
Yes, I always read the mission's review trough and carefully, don't you?  Or you just look at the "number", and you have a decision?  You see what I'm talking about? ;)

If that "numbers" will potentially gone, after a few days nobody will even notice that they're not there.

Offline dmakatra

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Re:The mission scoring "problem" - the matter of taste
« Reply #5 on: 21 Apr 2005, 16:11:32 »
I wouldn't exactley want to download 10 MB of addons, convince my squad to download 10 MB of addons, set up a server, let my squad join the server and download the 2 MB mission file in-game only to find out the mission is crap. Keep the scoring system I say. Author's can't take critisism? Then don't submit the mission to OFPEC. There are plenty of non-review sites out there, e.g. ofp.gamezone.

:beat: *Gets Shot* :beat:
« Last Edit: 21 Apr 2005, 16:11:54 by dmakatra »

Offline Pilot

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Re:The mission scoring "problem" - the matter of taste
« Reply #6 on: 21 Apr 2005, 16:13:10 »
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Yes, I always read the mission's review trough and carefully, don't you?  Or you just look at the "number", and you have a decision?  You see what I'm talking about?
I first look for the description of the mission.  If it sounds interesting, I'll look at the number.  If the mission is below a 3, I'll move on.  A number below a 3 tells me one of two things:
1: This mission is a movie (I have downloaded movie missions)
2: The author didn't put enought effort into his mission to make it better.  Usually a mission below 3 says there are errors in the mission.

If it is 3 or above, I'll take a look at it.  I then read the review, and if I'm satisfied the mission sounds good, I'll download it.  I don't just look at the number and make my decision.

I find the numbers to be a quick, convenient way to judge a mission's quality.

Offline rado1265

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Re:The mission scoring "problem" - the matter of taste
« Reply #7 on: 21 Apr 2005, 16:27:08 »
I sayin' again: all that, that the mission is crap, or is not crap, or whatever,  can be in the more detailed review. More detailed because of lack of that number. Don't tell me, dmakatra, that the number tells you how good the particular mission is. If it does, then ...

You see Student Pilot, your mission picking is partially based on that number scoring system. WHAT IF ... that low scored mission that you've potentially just passed, is a good one (for you)? You'll never know ...

Offline macguba

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Re:The mission scoring "problem" - the matter of taste
« Reply #8 on: 21 Apr 2005, 16:41:56 »
Scoring is not strange, but once upon a time it was unusual.     In the bad old days many sites accepted user created missions, but few rated them.    Some of these sites no longer exist, but some still do - ofp.info probably being the best example.   There, missions are published without comment.    ofpec, from its earliest days, set out to be different and to be committted to quality.   Therefore all the missions hosted here are functional:  if they are accepted with problems, then the problems are mentioned in the review.    

In the bad old days you could spend a lot of time d/l missions that didn't work.   It's still a major problem for missions submitted to ofpec, which is why we talk about beta testing so much - for a mission to be any good it MUST be tested by third parties.    The public do not see much of the hard work done by reviewers:   about 1/3 of subitted missions are non-functional or have major errors, and while reviewers are not beta testers, we do give authors the chance to fix problems.

Discriminating?  Yes, that's the whole point.

Influencing the mission making process?   Yes, that's completely deliberate and has always been an important part of the whole review process.     Most rookie mission designers make the same mistakes as their predecessors:  the review process is partly designed to help them avoid those errors and to encourage them into good mission design practice.    I recently submitted a mission that scored reasonably well:  did I deliberatly add features that I knew would attract marks?  I sure did.   Is the mission better for it?   It sure is.

The reviewer is given the right to examine the mission by the mission designer:  nobody is obliged to submit their mission to ofpec.   (There are plenty of other ways to get it into the public domain.)   The reviewer earns the right to review on behalf of ofpec by passing a stringent test:   more applicants fail than succeed.

There is not the slightest doubt that the overall score is always[/b] debatable by one point.    Occasionally it's more, but for the vast majority of missions, the vast majority of well informed players would agree with the score +/- 1.    Though we've all had the experience of playing an 8 or 9 and thinking, "WTF?".     The answer of course is that enjoyability is only one factor amongst many:   what we are trying to measure is how good the mission is, not how much it is enjoyed by the reviewer, which would be a much more personal thing.    

If you think the score or review is wrong or unfair, have a word with Artak, the Missions Depot Admin.   Scores have been changed in the past, though it is exceedingly rare and only shortly after the review has been published.

A great deal of the score is not a matter of opinion or taste:  reviewing guidelines are quite well defined.    You quote the example of long walks.   Well, it's true that ultimately you will lose marks for excessive long walks (they are boring - indubitably a negative in a leisure activity - and you don't need a mission to admire the Malden scenery, you can do that yourself) but a far more important consideration is the context:   is the tedium appropriate and is it sufficiently rewarded?     Reviewers are well aware of the risks of personal bias and try to avoid it.   Obviously they are sometimes unsucessful and sometimes they overcompensate.  C'est la vie.  

Having said all that, you do have a very important point and it is one that we have discussed in the past.  The headline score is given too much significance by many people.     Far more important than the score is the text of the review itself:  the score is just a summary.    However, if you are not one of these score-obsessed people, you are perfectly at liberty to ignore it.  

If you find a low scoring mission that you think is good, fantastic:  give it a high user rating, post a Comment on it saying you thought it was good and, if you really like it, advertise it your signature line.    However, the plain fact is that most low scoring missions have low scores for a reason.   In reviews of such missions you will often find tips and suggestions from the reviewer as to how the mission designer could do better next time.      

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You know; where's the reviewers "right" to decide for me (or even in the name of the site) which mission is good, and which is bad; I mean, the taste of that reviewer can be a diametrally oposite to mine.
The confusion implicit in this quote is, I suspect, the nub of the whole problem.  The reviewer is not looking to see whether a mission is to his taste or not:  he is looking to see whether the mission is any good or not.     And he is not deciding for you, he is giving you information to help you decide for yourself.  

If we remove the headline score, who gains?


Plenty of reviewed ArmA missions for you to play

Offline macguba

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Re:The mission scoring "problem" - the matter of taste
« Reply #9 on: 21 Apr 2005, 16:49:33 »
Bloody hell, six replies in the time it takes me to write one.   ;D

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Don't tell me, dmakatra, that the number tells you how good the particular mission is. If it does, then ...
Yes, the number does tell you, roughly, how good the mission is.   That is what it is for.    Missions scoring 7 are mostly better than missions scoring 3.   That's not to say that 3s aren't worth playing - some are.    Of course there is the occasional 7 that should be a 3 and vice versa but that doesn't invalidate the system.

There are 500 missions in the Missions Depot.    You can't read 500 reviews before deciding which one to download.   The overall score is just a quick and dirty shorthand which helps get you from "which mission will I download today?" to "dum-diddle-up You are dead."
« Last Edit: 21 Apr 2005, 16:50:54 by macguba »
Plenty of reviewed ArmA missions for you to play

Offline Baddo

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Re:The mission scoring "problem" - the matter of taste
« Reply #10 on: 21 Apr 2005, 17:14:41 »
Hmmm...

There are some things I have not liked when I have read some of these tutorials and reviews where someone is saying:

- Briefing is not good if it doesn't have many pages + pictures.

- Intro missing, very bad! What if the mission editor was thinking that he/she should put more effort into making an outro? So it would be a reward if the player makes it to the end? And what if the player hates long intros, especially if he/she has to restart the mission...

I have not released a mission yet but maybe I will in the future. Time will show if I manage to make a mission good enough to be released to the public. But the missions I have been working on would probably fail badly in the reviews because I like to keep the briefing as short as possible, preferably 1 page maximum (but still informative enough) and I don't like long intros. Intros in general are a good thing to put into missions, but if intro is long it has to be really good or I will start to hate it especially if I need to restart the mission. And hey... come on! Who likes to read 5 pages of briefing in a multiplayer game? I don't! In a single player mission it might be acceptable but really, if I want to read I'll go to the library and grab a good book and read it.

And one more thing... in some high scoring missions I have seen very unrealistic weapon selections. Some missions even have every weapon OFP has in the gear selection... If I were a mission reviewer, that would be a very bad thing and points would get a drop because of that, for sure.

Some mission reviewers/beta testers have said that there HAS to be the possibility to choose weapons, but hey... HELLO!!! No no no, no. I can't imagine such a situation if I went back to the FDF. I would be given an RK 62. If I say "I like Dragnunov, give me a Dragunov!" they will not give it to me but they will punish me for not doing what they say. Well in some places the soldier might have a possibility to choose his weapons but he/she is an expert then.

It's a matter of opinion, of course.

 :)
« Last Edit: 21 Apr 2005, 17:21:45 by Baddo »

Acecombat

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Re:The mission scoring "problem" - the matter of taste
« Reply #11 on: 21 Apr 2005, 17:31:33 »
Ohhh look whos talking  :P.

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One little exsample: some reviewers hate to do a few more paces across the map, they hold that boring, but I don't mind to do a little treking, because I appreciate the realism, so I know that you can't be parashooted right into the middle of the enemy base.

Ok lets see this example of yours. No reviewer minds a bit of trekking as long as its not 5 k's long back and forth for nothing except a crappy useless objective. I need to see reason in whatever i do i'll walk the whole of Nogova if the reason justifies it and i am not willing to walk 100 m if it doesnt.

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a mission with a 2/10 score have a barely a hundred downloads, a 9/10 mission over a thousand!  But what if that "2/10 mission" isn't so bad, and a "9/10 mission" isn't so good?  I have the opurtunity to play some, mildly saying, awfull "8/10 missions", and some "3/10"s, which were quite good, much better than that "8/10"s, but that's again can only be the matter of - my taste.  So some missions can be-are overlooked because of that mission scoring sistem influence.

Thats a load of BS. The system here at OFPEC and other mission reviewing websites like Opflash.org are very time tested and community orientated and display a very good standard in taste and choice so if a mission scores 2/10 there is definitely something wrong , the reviewer wasnt smoking weed and decided to put a 2 there for nothing.
There might be a disparity of lets say 1-2 pts MAX but thats it , mission types may vary and thats where individual tastes come in NOT the scoring. Scoring is done on the basis of several issues in a mission and not simply like/dislike over the mission type/storyline.

Offline MachoMan

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Re:The mission scoring "problem" - the matter of taste
« Reply #12 on: 21 Apr 2005, 17:55:17 »
Yep, I love trekking, just love hitting that + button 100 times!  ;D

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My suggestion: leave out that number scoring sistem -it will not be the end of the world because of that change-, and stay only with the (more detailed if needed) mission reviewing; and let the player to decide (thru the playing offcourse) which mission is for him good, playable, enjoyable, and which is not. On that way the missions players can (again) feel more "in to it", and I asure you, the Mission Comments will (again) become more lively.  The reviewer can-may point out (if he really must, I rather see them "neutral", eg that they're strictly "technical") his likes or dislikes with the mission thru the review, but in form of personal-technical opinions, not in form of suggestions (which some of them oftenly do, like "this is a must", or "avoid it like a plague" -  sic!).

I kinda agree with u on one point:

- Ppl should really read the review, not just look at the marks

I disagree, because:

- Getting rid of the points would make the review system more subjective!

This is because we have an extensive review guide which tells us what errors are major no-no's, what should earn you extras, etc.
Get those missions out there you morons!

Offline rado1265

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Re:The mission scoring "problem" - the matter of taste
« Reply #13 on: 21 Apr 2005, 18:50:51 »
Auuu, look all that dust! ;D

Here's my personal expirience about this (though I try to keep it like neutral): when I see the mission's score, I make (despite all the trying to ignore that number) a preasumption of the mission's value, but when I read the review I'm not always convinced that the reviewer have right about it (they're not gods, they make mistakes), and when I read some Mission Comments, if they're there, then sometimes I'm even more convinced that the reviewer got it wrong.  And here's the diference, if you can see it: the "number" - preasumption, the review reading - self making decision.

macguba, a more detailed review, with full of criticism of the particular parts of the mission if needed, can be much more helpful to the rooke mission designer, than a low scoring.

I have nothing more to add to this matter, I say all what I intent to say (obviuosly the answer is no, nein, nada, niet, niente ... you conservatives you are! ;)), so I will end in the macguba's manner, with the question: if that number "goes", what we will lost?

Offline General Barron

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Re:The mission scoring "problem" - the matter of taste
« Reply #14 on: 21 Apr 2005, 19:53:06 »
In general, I find the numbers helpful for distinguishing a good mission from a bad one. The 'in between' area is less easy to define by the score, because some 5/10 missions are really quite enjoyable, while some 7/10 missions seem rather boring, IMO. But generally, seeing a 2/10 lets me know that I don't want to download that mission, because it will be chock-full of all those frustrating misison errors that we've all seen a thousand times (poor briefing, mission won't end, etc). There are exceptions of course, and I've played a few 2/10's that seem like they should be 7+, but those are exceptions, not the rule.

I do think that the missions depot/reviews could be improved, however, but I don't think this is the way to do it. Not to name names, or put anyone down, but personally, I don't like short reviews where the reviewer spends as much time talking about the briefing + overview as they do talking about the mission itself. Recently there seem to be more of these than in the past, but I could be wrong. The reviews I find the most helpful are ones where the reviewer describes what the mission is about, in as much detail possible (without ruining any surprises). After that, it is nice to see all the technical points of what the author did good or poorly. I personally don't care about whether the overview had a border, or spilled onto two pages, or anything like that (unless it is really awful).

The single thing that could improve the missions depot the most, IMO, would be having SOME kind of organization of the missions, aside from what is currently available. What I mean is, what if I want to play a flying mission? Well, I'd like to be able to hit a button and only see those kinds of missions. In that case, I would download whatever seems interesting, including missions with 'lower' scores, such as 4-5. Or if I wanted to play with WWII units, or a specific mod or island, etc. It would be hard to implement, and I'm not even sure what catagories you would organize them into, but that would make it so much easier to find the style of mission you want. Perhaps even a simple word search of the mission descriptions would work well for this.

Even with any flaws it might have, OFPEC is still the best site for downloading missions. :D I can't stand sites like OFP.info that don't even have reviews for the missions (let alone an author's description!)...

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