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Author Topic: (Review Completed) [SP] Abandoned Armies  (Read 216264 times)

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Offline SEAL84

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Re:Abandoned Armies
« Reply #30 on: 02 Feb 2005, 19:36:08 »
@SEAL84
Why nay to the kozlice?

Because I didn't think the climb up that hill was bad at all.  I expected to be going into a hostile environment so taking it slow and easy doesn't bother me.  Then again I did decide the best way to tackle this mission was through stealth and deliberate action, so on the whole moving slowly just doesn't bother me.

Also, any sane player will ditch the Kozlice almost as soon as he climbs that hill when he grabs an assault rifle.  At most it will last you two or three minutes, and on top of that, the pistol is IMO much better suited to dispatching those three soldiers because you don't have to reload it after every shot.

So really the only purpose it would serve is to get you up there a little faster.  It just seems to me like you'd be sacrificing some of that desperate "all I have is my father's pistol" atmosphere for a faster jog.  If the complaint was that it was too hard to kill the guys in the town, then by all means add it in, but I just don't think the need for it is sufficient.



*update*

Almost forgot to mention that I had gone back to Vigny, killed those 5 guys, and made off with another M60, AK74 and RPGs.  

But I should explain:

I went back with the jeep and parked it just out of sight.  I crawled into a position to waste the infantrymen with my CZ75 - that's all I brought with me - and did so.  However, I stood up too early as one of the guys apparantly had eluded me - he shot me.

Posthumous Purple Hearts: 2

So I reload and do it right this time.  I grab the M60 when I hear - or I thought I heard - a klaxon from the area of Le Pessagne.  I don't waste any time...I get in the jeep and haul ass back to the camp, fearing that those tanks are on the way over.  I unload the M60 into the ammo crates, save, and head back on foot - again with only my pistol - just to see what if anything happened after I had fled.

To my surprise, there's nobody there.  Well, there's one guy, standing in the middle of the town.  I kill him, then grab the RPG I wanted earlier.  I don't hear any alarms, so I must have just been hearing things.  I take cover in a nearby bush to observe the town for a while, again to see if anybody came to investigate.  Seeing nothing after a couple of minutes, I jog back to camp and save - then pop out to write this and get a few assignments for class done.

I'll stick my head back in later.
« Last Edit: 02 Feb 2005, 19:42:57 by SEAL84 »

Offline XCess

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Re:Abandoned Armies
« Reply #31 on: 02 Feb 2005, 19:59:30 »
The three soldiers are no challenge at all as it is. They either stand and look at the wall or spin in circles. I'd leave one in the room with Tatyan and have the other two outside. Kozlice would make it more of a challenge too, and point towards the words "old". Personally, I hate the gun, but i think it could be used very well here.

My father's pistol could be changed for myfarthers shotgun pretty easily  ;)

Offline THobson

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Re:Abandoned Armies
« Reply #32 on: 02 Feb 2005, 20:20:18 »
@SEAL84

You are very determined and patient.  I am impressed.  Have you had any sight of any road traffic at all?

@XCess

I plan to stop them spinning.  I did originally have them outside, I even had the fire there, then I thought - look at the filthy weather, and look where all the booze is.  That was when I put them inside.

I am not worried too much about this bit being challenging.  It is really only scene setting at this stage.  The whole intent here is to create an atmosphere.  Don't worry there are plenty of challenges later!

Offline macguba

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Re:Abandoned Armies
« Reply #33 on: 02 Feb 2005, 20:24:38 »
Blimey, this thread's taken off....

Anyway, you may recall that I was in a bush facing the advancing squad.   The position was much too exposed and I manged to leg it back into the village where I skulked around the jeep and managed, to my astonishment, to bring down the whole squad at the first attempt.    Collected goodies all round leaving me wiht AK74+4 mags, 1 hand grenade, RPG+2 rockets, full pistol mags, NVGs and binocs.    

Set off in the jeep, following the roads.   Didn't meet anybody till I got to the turnoff marker house with the fire and dead woman.   Drove towards the lodge and stopped when I saw it.   Was about to shoot the man on the porch when ~I realised he was in Resistance uniform.   Got the halt message, went on and got another and was then shot.  Second time I stopped and got the cutscene.    

Minor technical faults first:    I was wearing NVGs so it was all green - remove them and add back later.   The sentry on the porch never moved - he should face you at least.   I never saw the approach of the main guy, though maybe I missed him.   At the end of cutscenes, return the player to aware.     The opening shot was of my legs, the camera was in the wrong place.

You need to decide if this is going to be two cutscenes or one.   I had one which finished, and then a couple of seconds later the second one started.    In the first the shots of the story of the wife/daughter had no music and something sad would have been nice.   There was a new enemy squad around her body, which looked a bit odd - clear them out for this.  

The second scene felt peculiar because there were all these people that I hadn't seen just appearing in it.  I didn't have a good sense of what was going on in the place where I was.      Lose the objectives updated hint, not necessary.    "Can you tell me anything else" is a dreadfully weak line.

Having said all that, it's perfectly clear what you have to do next, in general terms at least.

Your new squad:   take away some of the soldier's hand grenades.   I know I always whinge when mission designers make loons low skill, but consider reducing one or two of these guys a bit - there are supposed to be just civvies.

I'm not convinced by the scenary here.     The graves are not in the right place (whatever that means.)    I like the fire with pallets but why have a fire in the open when you have a lodge with a perfectly good chimney?    And why store weapons in the open?    I'm not convinced by the ruin either, though fuel drums round the back is good.    And why two woodpiles.    The vehicles aren't right either:  if they are meant to be just parked, they would be more ordered (it's what people do).     If they are meant to be hidden or dispersed, they would be more hidden or dispersed.     The lodge building is a good choice though, it's a real pity its not enterable.    The dutch barn (near the bodies in Vigny) might come in handy here.

Teatime.   More later.

« Last Edit: 02 Feb 2005, 20:33:02 by macguba »
Plenty of reviewed ArmA missions for you to play

Offline SEAL84

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Re:Abandoned Armies
« Reply #34 on: 02 Feb 2005, 20:45:44 »
@SEAL84

You are very determined and patient.  I am impressed.  Have you had any sight of any road traffic at all?

I have seen the roving team of jeeps with fifty-cals on the backs twice...heard them coming and took cover to eyeball them.  They didn't notice me.  However I have been staying off the roads.  Usually I leg it to wherever I'm going, but when I do take vehicles to gather equipment, I go off-road.  I figure the last thing I need is to be driving along and run facefirst into hostiles, losing my cargo.

Anyhow, I went back to Vigny again as part of my ongoing experiment to see what sort of reinforcements I can expect...as I neared it I spotted that tank platoon again.  I turned back and headed back to the lodge.

I armed the civilians with assault rifles - I had left them with shotguns since I don't expect to use them for anything, but we have plenty now so why not - and took the Kozlice for myself since while it is a weapon, I won't hesitate to drop it for anything more appealing that I see.

Right now I have legged it into La Trinite - I blundered into it in the fog earlier on my way to rescue those civilians and saw infantry there, so I figured I'd come back and recon it properly.

I snuck into a house on the west side of town and that's where I've been for the last 20 minutes - I alt-tabbed out to check the thread - while a convoy sits in the town nearby.  It seems to have come from the south and has quite a few vehicles, so I'm planning on waiting them out and exploring after they've gone.  But like I said, 20 minutes have passed and they're still there, so we'll see what happens.  It's 1130 hours in-game.

Back in I go for a little longer before real life catches up with me for the evening...
« Last Edit: 02 Feb 2005, 20:46:53 by SEAL84 »

Offline THobson

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Re:Abandoned Armies
« Reply #35 on: 02 Feb 2005, 20:51:07 »
Quote
I was wearing NVGs so it was all green
Blast.  This is a case of, I never have NVGs at this point so it never occurred to me that someone else would.

Quote
The opening shot was of my legs, the camera was in the wrong place
I cannot count the number of times I have seen the cut scene and I have never had this problem.  I think I will move the camera further away.  I don't really want to setPos Alexi to a specific point, but I might have to.  But it would look strange if he arrived in a vehicle.

Quote
wife/daughter had no music and something sad would have been nice
There is something.  I will turn up the volume.

Quote
There was a new enemy squad around her body, which looked a bit odd - clear them out for this.
Another trigger.  Oh well if I stop blocking the 4x that will give me one back.

I won't comment individually on everything.  They are all good points.  You have hit another point where I had a concern, why would they all be standing outside in the rain and why would their weapons etc be out in the open, but the more I played it the less I noticed the incongruity of it all.  The dutch barn is a good idea.
The way I rationalised the buildings was something along the line of: Nikolay's forbears built an old stone mansion in the hills as a summer retreat, over the years it fell into ruin and later Nikolay build the more comfortable wooden construction.  Yes it is a pity it is not enterable.
Having said I wont comment on everything:
Quote
The graves are not in the right place (whatever that means.)
Yes what does it mean?


Offline 456820

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Re:Abandoned Armies
« Reply #36 on: 02 Feb 2005, 20:56:08 »
downloading now qill review today or tomorow

Offline SEAL84

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Re:Abandoned Armies
« Reply #37 on: 02 Feb 2005, 21:17:29 »
So I started crawling around in the fog in La Trinite, and I've hit the jackpot ;D ;D ;D

Problem is that I still hear an M113 or M2A2 somewhere in the town >:(

*mutters and goes back to staring wistfully at motherlode*

Offline 456820

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Re:Abandoned Armies
« Reply #38 on: 02 Feb 2005, 21:27:34 »
right now played the mission it was alright but anyway the review
 overview
cant even remebr if there was one

briefing
it was good the background seem to go on for ever. you should of hid an objective when you have to go to the mountains. and good use of sound in it.

intro
Right long and abit boring but did explain what was going on but i did find it a bit long winded so mabye if its possible making it slightly more shorter but keeping it so it still tels the story and good use of the font and writing.

mission
right here we go at the begining having to run up the mountain to get in to the town was abit tifeous and slow but i supose you cant insert right next to the town. get into the town i didnt notice any patrols apart from the one in the house then that cutscene, good, good sound but he shouldnt of slinged his gun on his back incase a patrol sees him (bit of realism). then she gets shot i whanted to find that gut to have a boit of fun shotting cause from that point i only shot about 7 rounds or less. then the long trek to that house wich felt like a million miles away then i got half way there ruined my jeep had to run it found out you couldnt accelerate time. havent got any further because of that.

outro
was there one

overall
a bit tedious and slow. not enough guards/patrols should be ammo crates in the town (silenced weapons in it mabye). why was his family in the town if his house was about ten million miles away? nut anyway if you make it with more patrols it would be alot better. could be better but try make it abit more firing say you drive past an area where enemy troop movement was and get shot at. i didnt notice any town's with patrols in.

Offline macguba

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Re:Abandoned Armies
« Reply #39 on: 02 Feb 2005, 21:35:54 »
Quote
The graves are not in the right place (whatever that means.)
Yes what does it mean?

 ;D   I dunno, you just wouldn't put them there.    They are too close to the house and not parallel to it.     And not fenced off or in a marked or distinct area.

Keep the 2x/4x ban.   It's original and in this case the mission is deep and immersive enough to justify it, at least that's my feeling at the moment.     Don't panic about lag:  I'm playing with no trouble at all which means many others will too.     Just add things as you need to and then do the lag reduction exercise in a wunner.

Definitely don't feel obliged to comment on everything, you can spend the time more usefully amending the mission.    But I assumed the purpose that wretched squad was to give me NVGs.   ;D   Well, on the second or third attempt anyway.

Continuing ...

Listened to the radio message, liked the static.   A definite location (even if its slightly wrong would be good.)   Rearmed the squad:  I took the hunting rifle and we have 2 AKs and 2 kozlices.  Everybody has a pistol.

Lots of new objectives.   Don't change them twice is such close succession, just do it once.    In "More information" add links to the map.    I'm afraid, in a mission of quality, you can't just add civilians all over the place like this.   By all means keep the gist of the text and of course show us the location of the first lot.   However the locations of the other two lots must appear in the plot.  Perhaps when you rescue the first batch they tell you about the others.

If you want to be picky, change the order of Objectives.   Rescuing civvies comes before taking out the main enemies.     On the map, use some different symbols as well as different colours.   Make all of the fuel stations one colour.

Fires are lagdemons:  consider reducing the number or use existing triggers to put them out where possible when they are not relevant to the player.

Put everybody in the wagon and headed for the SW civvies by road.   A jeep/mg passed us as we turned up their track, but he didn't see us even though he nearly hit us.   Stopped halfway up the track and approaced tactically, just in case.   Found a loon in uniform who ignored us, and two standing oddly who spoke.     Yes we heard a radio message, but from somebody not near here ...... lose the fire (these folk are supposed to hiding), the graves (too many graves in this mission) and the pallets.    Consider putting everybody inside the building, though that will need testing.

Lot of bodies now.   I presume I'm supposed to drop them off at the lodge as a kind of battle casualty replacement reserve.     Somebody calls a chopper but I ignore it.    We all drive home and there is some confusion:  7 and 8, in the back of the lorry, disappear from the group somewhere, and 9 and 10 arrive on foot though I'm sure I didn't tell them to get out of the car.   I hear the chopper fly over the lodge.     We have no green tick for this Obj, although the civvy marker has vanished from the map which I don't think is a good thing.   If you want to be clever change the colour or text to indicate we've got them.

9 and 10 have turned up now, and I've figured out what happened to 7 and 8.    Nice idea to put them in the ruin.    6 gets a pistol and we all jump back in the wagon.  

I don't like the infinite savegames.    You have gone to a lot of trouble to create a sense of realism here, and this spoils it.   I  suggest you replace them with a limited number, at player's discretion.   So the radio menu will say "Savegame (15)" and then after you've used on "Savegame (14)" and so on.    No need to explain, we can work it out.    Be kind but not overly generous with the number.

(Just seen there are now 3 posts after this one ....)

Got my green tick now that all the civvies are here.  As a test I shot all 4 in the head, but nothing happened ... not that it necessarily should - if my boys hadn't been in the wagon they would have shot me at this point.

Drove to the next lot of civvies.    You don't need the fire here - it's easy enough to find a building, especially when you have a group to help you.     Try and use a different building from the last lot of civvies.   Put the medic (good) in the wagon with everybody else and the four civvies in the mini with orders to head to the lodge.   Headed for the last lot.

Well the mini must havfe got stuck because they kept reporting no progress.   Rather than go back and sort it out I ordered them to walk.     (At this point I was glad I had refueled the truck at the barrel behind the ruin.   As the only vehicle that can take everybody consider adding some kind of repair routine available at the lodge.)

Cut across country to avoid patrols, went south of La Trinite and got to the last lot of civvies.   They wouldn't join my group, presumably because there isn't room for them as the last lot haven't left it yet.    It occurs to me that the fires would be a great relief if you didn't have NVGs, so perhaps they should stay.    I confess I find this third lot of civvies tedious:  you've made the point, you can easily offer more than one soldier at each place - it's just a long drive and hassle for nothing new.

I go off to play with the cat ... come back to find the civvies have arrived safely.  Get the next lot, put them into the Trabant and send them off while the rest of us get back into the lorry and head for La Trinite.   We make the final approach on foot:  the civvies report a Bradley which must have caught them as they were crossing the road south of La Trinite and shortly afterwards they are all down with a red cross.    I reiterate that this bit needs a rethink:   I like the no 4x but leaving a mission to run while you go off and do something else is probably a bad sign ....

As we got the civvies does messages and entered La Trinite the hints hint came up.    I ran through the messages.   The first point is that you need to indicate how they communicate and agree the trade.   They are suspicious of each other so no way would one just leave something in LT expecting to find payment when he returned.     I think your idea of suggesting to the player that you should start a war between them is good, but I don't think this the right way to do it.    

Here is my suggestion.    The radio message takes you to the bunch of civvies in the SW.   They tell you about the civvies near La Trinite.   When you get there, you meet somebody who tells you all about the trade and how it works.    You then muse on the situation, and it becomes apparent from your musings and conversation - perhaps including your number 2, to make a three way conversation, which is all too rare - that starting trouble in La Trinite is the way to go.   The third (eastern) lot of civvies disappear, they add nothing but boredom and lag.

Moved into town and got the mines.    Drove the ammo and repair lorries out to the east, then my northern picket reported a BMP which then killed him and zapped me as I drove the BMP ambulance out.    

With this array of goodies I would suggest a timesaving measure.   Assuming there are no bad guys nearby, have a hint telling you of new radio options.   There are two.   Each gears up your squad in a different way, instantly or rather with a fade to black and fade in again.    You can switch as often as you like with a timer runnng:  after 2 minutes, say, that's it your stuck with what you've got.  Obviously you can then re-gear to your heart's content, but it's quicker and cleaner than the endless running around you have to do.   Suggested loadouts... leave pistols as they are, give NVGs as you have made them available already.

1. player         M21+LAW                  bizon+satchel
2. civvy           AK                              bizon
3. soldier        M60                           M60
4. civvy           bizon                          bizon
5. civvy           AK                              HK
6. soldier        AK+LAW                     AK+LAW
7. medic          bizon                         HK
8. soldier        AK+satchels               AK+LAW


That's enough for now.
« Last Edit: 03 Feb 2005, 00:05:02 by macguba »
Plenty of reviewed ArmA missions for you to play

Offline THobson

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Re:Abandoned Armies
« Reply #40 on: 02 Feb 2005, 21:43:42 »
@456820

Thank you for the comments.  Actually what you have seen is a little bit of the begining of the mission.  There are over 400 soldiers on the island, so there is a lot of shooting but that doesn't come until later.   I have not come close to finishing this mission in anything under 6 hours of mission time because it is really meant to be many missions all rolled into one. If knowing that you are willing to continue then I would be happy to have your comments.  If not then I would understand - this type of mission would not be enjoyable to everyone.
« Last Edit: 02 Feb 2005, 22:09:10 by THobson »

Offline THobson

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Re:Abandoned Armies
« Reply #41 on: 02 Feb 2005, 21:51:53 »
@macguba

Quote
But I assumed the purpose that wretched squad was to give me NVGs.
Actually no, the purpose was to fulfil Tatyana's promise that more soldiers were coming and give you the incentive to get the h out of there.  I suppose it is a measure of my (lack of) skill that it just never occured to me anyone would take them on on their own.  And then SEAL84 goes back all on his own with just the old man's pistol!!  You are all raving lunatics.

Quote
If you want to be picky
Yes I do.  Ha'peth o' tar and all that.

Offline SEAL84

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Re:Abandoned Armies
« Reply #42 on: 02 Feb 2005, 21:53:09 »
Crawled around a bit more and found that there's at least a platoon of guys still guarding the area even though the convoy left.  I managed to start looting the crates and putting my stash in a nearby vehicle.  I'm just about ready to hatch my master plan to escape, but alas, time for class.

Strikes me as odd that there are no rockets around, since that's what I need most, but whatever...tomorrow I'll have to utilize some of my explosive talents to create just enough havoc to drive out of there like a madman.

Offline THobson

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Re:Abandoned Armies
« Reply #43 on: 02 Feb 2005, 21:53:53 »
@SEAL84

After all your work loading up the jeep I thought you might be annoyed at this point.

Edit:

Still not used the clues?

Edit2:
Quote
there's at least a platoon of guys still guarding the area even though the convoy left
Shouldn't be.  Have you had any contact with them or have they seen you recently?
« Last Edit: 02 Feb 2005, 22:07:55 by THobson »

Offline XCess

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Re:Abandoned Armies
« Reply #44 on: 02 Feb 2005, 23:48:05 »
Quote
this type of mission would not be enjoyable to everyone.

This missions gonna turn into a cult classic after it's final release.. I can see Seal's getting addicted.