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11

Arma3 - Single Player Beta Testing / Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands

« Last post by Gruntage on 11 Feb 2024, 14:04:18 »

Finally had some time to play some more. IRL stuff has gotten in the way recently but I have a few hours to test some more.

Starting to Inflame Again I

This mission is actually the first time I've had to use the 'endmission' command because, my God, this was frustrating. The assassination of the officer feels far too difficult and I think I must have done around 30 attempts to a) kill the officer and b) get a distance of at least 25 metres away without getting sprayed by an APC and/or enemy troops. At that point, for me at least, the fun and challenge element ebbs away fast and the suspension of disbelief shatters. I'm quite patient with missions like this but this one it was too much.

I don't know whether the position of the officer is randomised within the bar, but for me at least, the officer was in the worst possible position and it took me a while to figure out where he was. I had to physically walk into the bar itself surrounded by enemies before I could even see him. Because of how insane the Arma 3 AI are, I would get shot the instant I fire a round off. Even if I managed to run out of the back, the enemy APCs are already on to me. It feels very unrealistic because these guys are are at ease yet they're able to counter a threat within one second.

On a few attempts I tried throwing a grenade into the room for the officer to hopefully die in the blast. A couple of times this worked, only to end up killing the barman in the process and getting a mission failed. On the rare occasions where I was able to kill the officer with the grenade, I would die before I could get a stone's throw away from the building despite having a headstart. The barman dying also caused functional issues as I when I tried to reload the latest save I would get a couple of 'fade-in's and be playing a completely different character somewhere else on the map. I had to reload again to an earlier save for the mission to get back on track.

So that's the gameplay side of things.

I have a few issues with the objective itself. Right now it feels disproportionately difficult and it's enough to pull me out of the story. I think asking the player to walk into a crowded bar to assassinate a target in full view of the bar occupants and then expecting said player to escape alive is too much in my opinion. I think it's made worse by the game's mechanics, such as the AI response time and accuracy. I think a mission like this would work so much better if stealth could be maintained throughout.

I think there are ways that this could be greatly improved to better the odds and make the mission less punishing. I'll list the points here for clarity.

- Officer Position

This is an easy fix; simply move the officer to a place where he can be shot from the back entrance of the bar.

- Involve the Barman in the plan

If moving the officer isn't working, then I'd suggest having the barman be in on the plan somehow. Maybe he will walk out of the bar through the back as a signal to the player to move in, thus removing himself from danger. Not only would this work narratively, but it would also make it easier for the player to manoeuvre into the bar to position himself to kill the officer. A plan like this requires multiple people to be in on it, in my opinion. It would be more realistic.

- Involve the prostitute or another prostitute

Another possibility is for the officer to go upstairs with a prostitute and for the player to stealthily move up there to deal the killing shot. This way stealth could be maintained and this would make a lot of sense. The challenge would then come from the player having to sneak to the boat without getting caught. Maybe the prostitute would then be a character who joins the resistance and would make regular appearances. I'm half joking with that but it's an idea.

Right now I don't think it makes sense for the player to be stealthy only to be forced to throw that advantage away at worst time and place. The key part is being forced since the player doesn't have a choice here. An analogy is James Gastovski sneaking into a base, dropping his satchel charges to destroy a tank and then for some reason detonating them whilst still in the base and having to fight his way out. The logical thing would be to detonate the charges when clear of the base and danger.

I don't think Tomas would be ok with having to execute this mission in the way that it is currently; it's too dangerous and risky, even with the uniform. Getting in is ok, getting out is the problem because the uniform at that point doesn't matter. So there's in-universe issues as well as meta ones.

So to summarise, as it stands, this is a mission that I just don't enjoy and I think unless changes are made, it's probably going to be one I skip on future playthroughs. Looking back at what I said on previous tests, it looks like I had difficulty with it then as well as now. I don't think the mission even requires substantial changes in order to better it so I'm not calling for a redesign necessarily.

I've been negative so far so let's change things up and list the positives:

- Very atmospheric and dark; helped by the music and the sound effects. The bar ambient sound is very good and it makes the bar feel alive and real.
- Great introductory cinematic (could do with a bit of extra lighting but that's a nitpick)
- Good attention to detail in the briefing; told me what I needed to know and how to execute the mission.
- Generally good positions of patrols throughout the town
- Realistic AI animations; it was enough to make me believe that these characters are real people.
- I appreciate the thought and attention that has clearly gone into the mission, I wanna be clear about that. It's just unfortunate that I have a real problem with the difficulty.

There's a great mission in here, and I don't think it would take much time to bring it out. A mission can be so easily killed by its difficulty...it's why balancing is extremely hard and not many people understand or appreciate it. There are missions out there that are sold on them being very hard to complete. MacGuba made one. Those missions I've found are love or hate. I'm digressing so I'll finish here.

That took longer that I expected so I'll come back to this one later.

12

Arma3 - Single Player Beta Testing / Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands

« Last post by Undeceived on 10 Feb 2024, 23:59:33 »

Somewhere along the way I came across a damaged T55, which I tried to repair with the toolkit from my truck. But it seems Tomas is no good mechanic and Matai was nowhere to be found. So I took one of the Mi8s from the airport and headed towards the main base. I was thinking about informing Petja to prepare a helipad for our camp, but as expected, my chopper was gone at the start of the next mission.^^

Haha, you're a specialist in finding these things. Thanks!

The cutscene with angry Dimitri was very well made. But I was unsure who those guys were that he killed. Did I miss something?

This probably is the officer responsible for the airfield defence who has f***** up. But you're right, maybe I should add a sentence or two to make this clear.

13

Arma3 - Single Player Beta Testing / Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands

« Last post by Clayman on 10 Feb 2024, 23:02:28 »

Alright, finally I found some time to continue playing. Not as much as I had wanted to, to really test these huge missions in depth. But my first impression so far was very good.


The Storm I & Preparation
The Preparation Mission started off with a very nice cutscene, setting the mood for the final battle that was about to come. Great atmosphere once again.

In the briefing / tasks section 'Get in position for the final attack' the marker link "move to our position" doesn't seem to point to any marker. During the actual mission(s) everything did work correctly, however.

After selecting my group members to equip them, in the team switch menu some of them didn't have their names displayed, but the group designation instead. So at times I had to guess who I was gearing up. Not a big issue, but it would be better to know who is who.


The mission itself seems to be pretty solid. I didn't notice any bugs at all. Of course such large scale battles always are a bit chaotic and it's quite likely that I missed something here and there in the heat of the battle. The overall atmosphere and feel of being part of an large assault was dominant and very well choreographed.

After Martin had informed me about the enemy reinforcements, I quickly went to Olsha and easily took out all enemies in the area. Then I moved to the AT position and cleared that area as well, including the first AA position. I used the static AT guns to take out some of the armor at the airport, trying to make it a bit easier for the Americans the take the airfield, while my men attacked the reinforcements coming from the north. But instead of being thankful, Papa Bear only could annoy me about the other AA positions which I should eventually take out. On my way I was thinking that a forest might not be the best location for an AA gun, with all those trees blocking the view on any helicopters attacking the airfield. However, I cleared both remaining AA positions and headed to the airfield. On arrival there weren't any enemies left, but the objective didn't seem to tick off.

The cutscene with angry Dimitri was very well made. But I was unsure who those guys were that he killed. Did I miss something?

Somewhere along the way I came across a damaged T55, which I tried to repair with the toolkit from my truck. But it seems Tomas is no good mechanic and Matai was nowhere to be found. So I took one of the Mi8s from the airport and headed towards the main base. I was thinking about informing Petja to prepare a helipad for our camp, but as expected, my chopper was gone at the start of the next mission.^^


The Storm II
This was again a very solid mission with no bugs to be spotted.
I remember the last time I played this, I could let the Americans do most of the work to conquer the camp, and due to how it was build, it was quite easy to take care of the incoming Spetsnaz. This time it was quite a bit more challenging. Overall the layout of the base felt a lot better. It was a great, intense fight to seize the compound and eliminate all enemies inside.

The scene with the Spetsnaz closing in was kinda intimidating and I had to hurry to get my men patched up, reequiped and in position to fend them off. However, after the very first wave of attackers, it seemed like the remaining Spetsnaz all attacked one by one, or in smaller groups of two or three men. While it was kinda challenging because they approached from different directions, once spotted it was easy to take them out. Making them attack all at once from different sides would make it quite a bit harder.

The ending cutscene wrapped the story up very well and I particularly liked Tomas' inner monologue ending with Chernarus was free. But...


Not over yet
Wow, that was unexpected. Another very well made cutscene adding a great twist and making me even more exited of what is still to come. 


I have to admit that I'm not the biggest fan of such large scale battles. But these where two very well made missions and a very welcome change to all the guerilla style missions we had so far. Great atmosphere, intense firefights and the feeling of being part of something bigger. I will definitely play both again to try some different tactics and see what I might have missed (or use to my advantage^^).

But first I'm off to see what Sergej is up to. Finally. Yep, I'm hyped... 

14

Arma3 - Single Player Beta Testing / Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands

« Last post by Undeceived on 05 Feb 2024, 19:43:08 »

Ok.

15

Arma3 - Single Player Beta Testing / Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands

« Last post by Clayman on 05 Feb 2024, 19:01:34 »

Ah, now that you mention it, I do think there was a conversation like that.
(It's easy to miss something while in the heat of combat, or, as in this case, while approaching an enemy position and spotting for hostiles.  )

16

Arma3 - Single Player Beta Testing / Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands

« Last post by Undeceived on 05 Feb 2024, 18:04:17 »

I think you would remember it. Tomas asks the Americans (BRAVO team) for help with the artillery (after having saved their asses in Gorka), but they aren't allowed to, which makes everyone angry and Kamil and Tomek even start cursing.

Ok, thanks!

17

Arma3 - Single Player Beta Testing / Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands

« Last post by Clayman on 05 Feb 2024, 17:09:17 »

One question: when you approached Visoky Kamen (the artillery), did BRAVO squad notify you that they arrived well and they offered shelter in the NATO FOB?

Hmm I'm not 100% sure about that. The FOB was mentioned at some point while approaching the artillery site, but I can't say if it was Bravo that reported it or someone of my team was talking about it.

18

Arma3 - Single Player Beta Testing / Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands

« Last post by Undeceived on 04 Feb 2024, 19:43:39 »

Thanks!

It's hard not to comment your feedback on the sub plots. Don't want to spoil anything.

Yes, group WOLF can survive (as a whole or partly), but the player can only indirectly influence this, by killing as many RS as possible.
Hm, you're right, Ivan should not be mentioned by Sergej, as the player doesn't know him. I'll take that out.

The Americans staying in the group in Escalation is really a bug. No idea why it didn't show up in my test run. They should board the truck and drive away. I'm glad they didn't break the mission.

I have noticed the unwanted move commands too, not only in this mission. I hope this is an Arma problem, but I don't know for sure because it has been a long time since I have played vanilla Arma.
One Arma bug I noticed for sure is the AI getting stuck when the player gives him a move order while he's bandaging himself.
https://feedback.bistudio.com/T177333

But what happened to his awesome car? Showing up in that odd Lada was kinda meh. 

CUP didn't port it. That was 5 years ago though. I'll check it but again but I think it's still not there, unfortunately.

the officer talked to me like I hadn't been to Gorka in the beginning to help the Americans. Not sure if that was because the task didn't seem to complete (the two survivors staying in my group). I do think the task showed as complete in the briefing though.

Hmm, that's the question now... When the player has helped the Gorka unit, then the squad leader talks about that in the outro. When the player did not help, them the squad leader in the outro isn't the Gorka one (as he's dead) but the squad leader that comes to Tulga in Three Valleys.

It sounds like the helpedGorkaUnit variable was not properly transferred to the outro. Dammit... I think that the bug in the script, you experienced, isn't the reason.

One question: when you approached Visoky Kamen (the artillery), did BRAVO squad notify you that they arrived well and they offered shelter in the NATO FOB?

19

Arma3 - Single Player Beta Testing / Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands

« Last post by Clayman on 04 Feb 2024, 18:02:30 »

If he/she leaves them behind, they feel so insulted that they leave the camp and are gone.

Really? Haha, that's awesome. I guess I will have to try that. But as you said, Jegor is very experienced and Lukas being a medic is an important team member as well. I wasn't aware that this Jegor is a different one than the Jegor I met five years ago.  While they were a bit mean towards Johan(?), they didn't come across as assholes per se. I found the conversation to be rather entertaining.^^

So I read it there are chances for team Wolf to survive? Will have to try that as well. Having more men in my team might be helpful.


Continuing with Escalation (& Preparation).
I really like these preparation missions. Although rather small filler missions, they add a lot to the overall story. Especially the expanding camp looks great. While I still don't trust Petja any further than I can throw a piano, he does seem to do a good job as quartermaster.

When Martin(?) mentioned that Sergej would inform Ivan's wife, I was like "who is Ivan?". I then found out about him only in the group managers KIA list. It felt a bit odd to have a whole list of guys with their background stories just to realize they were all killed during the last mission. But as it seems they could as well survive and be available as new team members. Will definitely check that out.

Also I like how the subplot with the Spetsnaz is starting to unfold. Couldn't remember this one at all.
I have to admit, it would be cool to have at least some talk options with my team mates during these missions. It doesn't have to be anything too fancy. But it's an great opportunity to add more depth to the men and make the player care even more for them.


The mission itself is a rather long one. Like the previous one, I could only remember fragments from my A2 playthrough, so it felt mostly fresh and new.
The first thing I noticed was that Tomas' equipment from the preparation mission didn't carry over. I still had the stuff that I had at the end of Three Valleys. I had given him a few satchels which I expected to need to destroy the artillery guns and now they were missing. However I decided to continue nonetheless, hoping to find replacement somewhere along the way or, if not, use some RPGs to do the job. (There was everything I needed in the camp at the end, so no problem here. But it would of course be cool to have the correct equipment after having a preparation mission just for that.)

There occasionally was some weird AI behaviour throughout the mission, like my #7 (Lukas, the medic) having a move order displayed although I didn't order him to do anything. Or sometimes when giving orders, the game simply didn't register them and nothing happened. Not a big issue and I'm unsure if that's some new Arma feature. It just felt a bit strange.

There also was quite a bit of micromanaging of my group involved, which can become a bit of a hassle when there are more than 10 guys in your group.
After I had helped the Americans in Gorka, it wasn't that easy to get the survivors out of the village and to their pickup point without them running into the enemy, while at the same time trying to fend off the counter attack with my resistance guys. At the end, only two of the Americans reached their transport alive.

During the conversation there were some error messages:

Code: [Select]

Error in expression <elfen11";} else {
if (alive b2_1) then {b1_2 groupradio "STR_helfen11";} else {
>
Error position: <b1_2 groupradio "STR_helfen11";} else {
>
Error Undefined variable in expression: b1_2
File UND_BlackLands\Campaigns\missions\b_15escalation.chernarus\scripts\abschied.sqf..., line 10



Error in expression <fen12_2";} else {
if (alive b2_1) then {b1_2 groupradio "STR_helfen12_2";} else
>
Error position: <b1_2 groupradio "STR_helfen12_2";} else
>
Error Undefined variable in expression: b1_2
File UND_BlackLands\Campaigns\missions\b_15escalation.chernarus\scripts\abschied.sqf..., line 24



Error in expression <elfen14";} else {
if (alive b2_1) then {b1_2 groupradio "STR_helfen14";} else {
>
Error position: <b1_2 groupradio "STR_helfen14";} else {
>
Error Undefined variable in expression: b1_2
File UND_BlackLands\Campaigns\missions\b_15escalation.chernarus\scripts\abschied.sqf..., line 36



Error in expression <elfen15";} else {
if (alive b2_1) then {b1_2 groupradio "STR_helfen15";} else {
>
Error position: <b1_2 groupradio "STR_helfen15";} else {
>
Error Undefined variable in expression: b1_2
File UND_BlackLands\Campaigns\missions\b_15escalation.chernarus\scripts\abschied.sqf..., line 44
I'm not sure if I missed something during the conversation, but the two Americans stayed in my team while the truck stood there waiting. I was unsure what to do, so I boarded the truck with my men and it drove off to the north. As that was the wrong direction, I had to reload my last savegame and then headed off to Polana with the two Americans following me. Not sure how long they followed me, after talking to the woman they were gone however. Talking of the woman, I can shoot her through the window and when entering the house afterwards, Tomas still tries to interrogate her.^^

When at the barn and the Red Star guys came towards our position, I wasn't able to spot them. But apparently I had positioned my men quite well and they easily took care of the attackers.
I particularly liked Tomek's behaviour towards the woman and especially his reaction when Tomas denied him to kill her. That's a great example of what I meant with adding more depth to the characters. I felt so much for Tomek, his pain and anger. I could really understand his behaviour and I felt the need to help him somehow.

The reinforcements were very welcome, even though I hadn't lost any of my men so far. Unfortunately the parked UAZ was too small to fit my whole team, so I had to split my team up and take the other UAZ, which the Red Star guys obviously didn't need anymore. Having an AI driver to follow you of course brings the usual pathfinding issues, like hitting trees, hitting rocks, hitting buildings, you name it. Took me some time to reach Guglovo. At least there I found a truck I could use big enough to fit my whole team, which made traveling a lot easier.

It was really cool to meet Piotr again, although it's been quite a while.
But what happened to his awesome car? Showing up in that odd Lada was kinda meh. 

The rest of the mission went flawless and I managed to complete it without any casualties. It's cool to have some opportunities to reequip my men and grab some much needed weapons and ammo. While I found some AA launchers at the camp, I wasn't able to take out the helicopter flying circles over my head. I did however damage it so it stopped shooting at my men.

The marker link in the briefing "NATO Base" didn't seem to work correctly. And in the end cutscene, again I'm not sure if I missed something, but the officer talked to me like I hadn't been to Gorka in the beginning to help the Americans. Not sure if that was because the task didn't seem to complete (the two survivors staying in my group). I do think the task showed as complete in the briefing though.


Overall it was another great mission which I thoroughly enjoyed despite some smaller issues. Great work once again. 

20

Arma3 - Single Player Beta Testing / Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands

« Last post by Undeceived on 04 Feb 2024, 02:45:19 »

Great, you're now in the phase of the campaign that wasn't released in the last version. Keep coming the good feedback!

These preparation missions are completely new. But there won't be so many conversations in the next ones.

Oh yeah, Jegor and his brother Lukas... Try to forget their story from the last version. They are rather supposed to come across as some mean assholes, making fun of some others, etc. So maybe the player wants to leave them behind in the camp. The "problem" is that Jegor is one of the most experienced fighters of the whole team. He might be the best after Kamil and maybe Ivan from team WOLF (who will only join later, if he survives the mission 14). Lukas is somewhat experienced too and he even is a medic. So the player has to choose if he wants these assholes in the team or not. If he/she leaves them behind, they feel so insulted that they leave the camp and are gone.

Thanks for your feedback on The Picture. I was looking forward to that. These were some major changes.
 
Btw., I'll try to adress all issues you are reporting. Ok, almost all. Keep them coming, even if I don't comment all of them, I'm taking note of them all.