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Arma3 - Single Player Beta Testing / Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands

« Last post by Undeceived on 25 Feb 2024, 21:34:58 »

Thanks, Gruntage! I'm "on leave" here at the moment, but I read everything and I'm aware of your feedback. I won't go into all of them for the next version, otherwise I won't finish the project But some of them are too important and too "true" to leave aside. There might be some ways here and there to implement small changes to have a more or less better effect than it is now.

Thanks for your time (testing and then writing)!

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Arma3 - Single Player Beta Testing / Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands

« Last post by Gruntage on 20 Feb 2024, 00:40:30 »

Continuing on...

Setting up Time

Remember this one back from the original tests. This is probably the first mission I've played so far that I've very much enjoyed, though the mission is not without its shortcomings. I haven't finished the mission yet; I'll have to carry on with it another day. On that note though, I think the mission is too long. The whole section with meeting Kamil should probably be in its own mission with its own cinematics and so on. Honestly after playing this one for about 3 hours, I was getting a little bored and was looking forward to the mission ending.

EDIT: I'll expand on this a bit more. A mission should be structured as such: beginning, build-up, climax, wind-down, conclusion. It's how stories in books and films are structured. In the case of this mission, you have your beginning at the camp, the build-up in acquiring the motorcycle, the climax in clearing the Russian camp, the wind-down in bringing your supplies back to the camp and the conclusion should be arriving at Kamil's house. There is an argument that the conclusion should simply be at the camp, with Tomas and Sergej visiting Kamil in a cinematic. In fact I'd prefer this.

If I were planning this, I'd have Tomas and Sergej visit Kamil at night, when they're less likely to be discovered or overheard. Right now you have them visit Kamil in broad daylight when Kamil is being watched. I would have thought two guys visiting Kamil would have been of some interest to the Russian intelligence service. It just feels like a bizarre choice for this important meeting to take place during day time.

Unfortunately what we have instead is the section with Kamil tacked onto what should be the end of the mission. It feels a bit weird. I noticed in the task info for finding Kamil that you say that the mission will end after the task. So it's like you're aware that the mission is too long by this point and you want to reassure the player. It's as if you're saying to the player 'don't worry it'll all be over after this'.

Anyway, I'll summarise the good parts and the bad parts of the mission below.

Functionally the mission is generally fine; there weren't any error messages or scripts not working as far as I could see. The mission allows for many different takes on strategy, offering choice which I'm a huge advocate for. In fact I like the concept of acquiring supplies very much as it gives the player a sense of accomplishment for having done so. At least, as long as the supplies are not simply ignored in future missions. I don't remember the rest of the campaign very well but I hope that the supplies I literally bled to get are made use of.

Probably the most enjoyable part of the mission was sniping the gunner of the patrolling BMP at the camp, which rendered the tank basically useless; it just drove round in circles not doing anything. It looked silly but it was satisfying to see. I wasn't expecting heavy reinforcements to arrive and unfortunately they did so when I was in the base. What followed was a game of cat and mouse between me and the T72. A few times I had to deal with game bugs such as being shot through walls and units requiring an entire clip of AK rounds before dying.

Eventually I cleared the base with a sigh of relief. There weren't any vehicles in the base for some reason so I had to run back to the fuel depot to grab a UAZ. I loaded nearly everything from the crate into the UAZ and drove back to the camp, detonating the charges at the fuel depot along the way. For some reason the objective to destroy the fuel depot didn't tick off despite the place being a smoldering ruin. I placed the charges on the fuel tanks so I think that should have been enough. At any rate, after returning to the camp I felt like a conquering hero with a great sense of accomplishment, so well done here.

So let's talk about the things that could do with some polish;

The amount of running is quite excessive in this mission to be honest and there were a few points where I had to use the accelerate time feature otherwise I'd have gone nuts. My personal stance on this is that if a player feels compelled to use the + key, then something should be done about it. It's not actually a difficult problem to solve. For example, you could place more foot patrols to increase the level of threat to the player and to establish the Russians as ruling with an iron fist. The player therefore has to be more careful with his movements which makes travelling more interesting.

Next, the dialogue. My main issue with the dialogue is that nearly all of it should be placed within a camera cinematic. During the conversation with Kamil, for example, I could literally run out of the house and sprint back to the camp with nothing to stop me. It's immersion breaking and this is probably the most egregious example of this. The dialogue with Kamil is well done but it's damaged by the player being able to run around his house with no consequences. The same issue applies in the camp when Tomas is speaking to other members of his team.

There were also a few moments in the dialogue that made me raise my eyebrows. For example, when Kamil asks what equipment that Tomas has, Tomas responds by saying that they basically have nothing. Motherfucker I just cleared an entire Russian base and a fuel depot, looted the whole place and drove everything back single handed. We have a lot of equipment. You get the point; it was just a bit strange and again, kinda breaks the immersion.

One other moment and this is really nitpicky. We get told in the camp at the beginning that Tomek knows an ex-CDF special forces guy. Later, when Tomek is awake, the dialogue basically repeats and we get told that Tomek knows an ex-CDF special forces guy. It made say 'you don't say?!'. I think the dialogue just needs a bit of looking at and polished.

Finally, the atmosphere. I found it a little lacking in this mission to be honest. The world feels somewhat populated but could do with a bit more to make it feel more realistic. I just remembered, when I went into the store in a village beginning with P that I can't pronounce, I had an AK, an RPG launcher, a Russian vest, helmet and yet nobody batted an eyelid. I'd have thought that the village people would have had a reaction, be it panic or cheering me on or something. At the beginning of the mission, I shot one of the policemen with a pistol and nobody reacted. When you stack these things up, it does take its toll on the immersion. Also are the police the enemy? Are they working for the Russians? Should the player be taking them out at all? That's more of a world-building issue.


Anyway, as I said, I haven't finished this one yet so I'll tackle the second part of this mission another time. The mission is enjoyable but could certainly be improved.

EDIT: One other thing I remembered. I shot two enemies in one village stealthily; no one was alerted. I put their gear in the motorcycle. I wasn't carrying any equipment yet I was shot at when leaving town. Was a bit of a let down to be honest because it means that stealth wasn't really an option when it absolutely should have been.

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Arma3 - Single Player Beta Testing / Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands

« Last post by Gruntage on 17 Feb 2024, 15:56:24 »

Had some time to test today so on we go...

Starting to Inflame Again (Part 2)

Quite a simple, straightforward mission but I feel there are some issues with its execution. I won't go into too much depth about how I completed it but I will highlight the key parts and comment on them.

The radio savegame. I think this is redundant as the game has a built-in save game mechanism. On previous playthroughs I've found I wasn't able to resume the mission from the campaign menu when utilising the radio savegame. That's probably a bug within Arma itself. My advice is get rid of the radio savegame as you don't need it.

I found that the run to the overlook (i.e. the objective) was a little on the boring side as nothing really of interest happened. There wasn't any music or sound effects to act as mood/atmosphere multipliers, no interesting dialogue between Tomas and Sergei. Felt a little lacklustre with room for improvement. Ended up using the time acceleration feature as I was confident that I wouldn't come across any enemies.

The revive script was again causing problems for me unfortunately. The holdaction 'circle' disappears which can be very misleading for people if they don't know how the script works. This can cause people to cancel the action thinking that it's completed when it hasn't. This is compounded by the fact that mission takes place at night and it's difficult to see the player's animations in the dim light. I know it's a third party script but it needs reworking because at the moment, in my view, it's not fit for purpose. I don't know why the circle disappears but that's probably the biggest issue. I don't like being unable to revive whilst prone as a few times I got my head shot off because my character insisted on kneeling in order to revive. I feel like reviving takes too long as well; I'm a sitting duck and it's not like I have a choice of where I can revive.

For me that script is a bit of a nightmare from a gameplay perspective. I can't really be all that constructive on this particular aspect because it's not a script I've ever delved into. If it's a third party script, I would look into finding an alternative as I'm sure there are loads out there. If you feel like it, you could try making your own but a simpler and thus more effective version.

One another note, I noticed that Sergei doesn't copy my stance when ordered to do so. He's standing the entire time. It's great for mobility as at least he and I get to places faster. But it makes him so easy to hit and he got downed several times because he doesn't want to get his clothes dirty, I guess  .

When it comes to the gameplay, I have mixed feelings about it. I took control of the black site with some difficulty (Arma 3 AI) and so it took longer than perhaps it should have. The reinforcements arrived when I reached the shed with the hostages and I think this is when the mission execution took a hit. As soon as we got ported outside, we all got slaughtered within 5 seconds by a squad and an APC. As far as I could tell, there wasn't a way of countering the APC. Even if there was an RPG somewhere in that village, I wouldn't have had enough time to grab it without getting killed.

After a reload I found that the best way was to simply sprint away and hope that the AI teammates get the memo and do the same.....they didn't. They all got killed but the mission ended anyway successfully. I don't think they made it out of the walled section behind the shed because AI pathfinding.

That section of the mission feels weird because it almost relies on the AI needing to be smarter in order for the mission to function properly. If your teammates were players as opposed to AI, then the mission would work brilliantly and nearly all of the issues would disappear.

I think the reinforcements also make that section feel strange as well. Funnily enough I think at one point during earlier tests I mentioned the then lack of reinforcements as criticism. I think what we have now is maybe too difficult for 2-4 people to deal with (3 of whom being AI).

Obviously I don't consider myself very good at Arma so I'm very curious as to how this mission could be completed optimally. I'd love to see a video of how this one should be played because I feel like I'm missing something and it makes the mission feel strange to play. It reminds me playing the Apex campaign but as single player...very difficult because the campaign was balanced around multiple people playing.

I completed the mission but it felt weird because I'd lost my team and yet I was rewarded for it. It makes the player think that the teammates don't matter at the end of the day when in fact they do.

I like the concept and the plan; it makes sense strategically. But I'm not really a fan of the execution of this one.

If I get time later I'll have a look at the next mission.

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Arma3 - Single Player Beta Testing / Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands

« Last post by Undeceived on 11 Feb 2024, 18:46:43 »

So, are there actually different ways to approach this mission?

Well, I'd say yes. But bottom line there are two endings, finding Sergej or giving it up. The way to Sergej is via Jacek. From there on the mission is more straight forward, even though there will be some more choices to make.

Before finding Jacek there are some dead ends too, e.g. the dead civilian in Solnichniy. But you can only get to that civilian when you go to the quarry. And in the quarry you'll hear the drunkards mention the word Orlovets, so you have another lead. There is one more direct lead to Jacek, but I don't want to spoil that. Others mention that they saw or will meet Jacek in Solnichniy, so you can say that the quarry is one of the two important spots.

All in all it shouldn't be a problem or break anything when you snoop around without been told to do so.

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Arma3 - Single Player Beta Testing / Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands

« Last post by Clayman on 11 Feb 2024, 17:57:02 »

should I rather lock the entry to the hideout and unlock it later?

I guess this would be the best way to solve this. Having access to the camp from the beginning, but nothing to find there until later, would feel strange.

I thought I had thoroughly searched the camp, and still almost missed the other intel. There is so much stuff lying around in the camp, which is good. But it's easy to miss something. The take action only appearing when looking at the exact spot doesn't make it easier, too. I don't know how this can be improved to make it more obvious of what is important.

So, are there actually different ways to approach this mission? As I wasn't sure if I had messed something up by going to the quarry before anything led me there. And the task with the murderer, I had the feeling that there was more to be found. Overall I had the feeling I had missed some stuff, not only regarding the intel from the camp.

Or if the "directing" / designing is ok.

Ok? No, it was not Okay. It was spectacular! Like I said, I enjoyed this ending much more than the one I had in my A2 playthrough. (I guess there is something similar when I manage to find Sergej.)

I feel that the cutscenes again are very long already

Sorry mate, but this excuse doesn't work here anymore. When a player reaches this point, he already endured (or enjoyed) like 27 hours of cutscenes.  Having an extended outro is what anyone would expect from you for a campaign like this. 


Edit:

I checked it. The crucial intel in the hideout should be there if the ammo crate was.

Ok. I'll keep my eyes peeled the next time I play this.

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Arma3 - Single Player Beta Testing / Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands

« Last post by Undeceived on 11 Feb 2024, 17:39:36 »

@Clayman

I checked it. The crucial intel in the hideout should be there if the ammo crate was.

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Arma3 - Single Player Beta Testing / Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands

« Last post by Undeceived on 11 Feb 2024, 17:32:43 »

@Gruntage

Ouch, I got it, I got it!

This is great feedback, because you're completely right! There should be some kind of stealth option to do the job... I'll think of something, thanks for your ideas!

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Arma3 - Single Player Beta Testing / Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands

« Last post by Undeceived on 11 Feb 2024, 17:08:09 »

Oh, didn't notice Gruntage's post above Clayman's. Will read it now.

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Arma3 - Single Player Beta Testing / Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands

« Last post by Undeceived on 11 Feb 2024, 17:00:33 »

@Clayman

Thanks a lot, man! Glad you liked the mission (even though you played only half of it), I was looking forward to read the feedback. Yeah, this was quite a ride creating this mission. I don't know if you remember it from Arma 2 times. You would click on points of interest (like the quarry) on the map and would be setpossed there... And that was it, if you clicked on the right spot (which I won't spoil now), then the mission would end. This was a matter of seconds to finish it, but interestingly this kind of search was the starting point and inspiration for the mission like it is now. But it turned out to be the most complex mission of the campaign, due to its open gameplay. Therefore it's great to have some feedback, e.g. about Tomas asking around about Jacek even though he was already found.

Ok, so, you missed crucial intel in the RS hideout. But this is good because I'll add an extra hint for the player (or Tomas saying something) when leaving the hideout without having found the intel. It's in the back room where the ammo crate is, on the desk. Or at least it SHOULD be there! At mission start this one and other stuff in the hideout are hidden and maybe the hideObject false didn't work out?... Not sure now, to be honest.

But anyway - on the other hand this way you tested the other variant to finish the mission - giving up and returning to the camp, which is important as well. Thanks!

I'll check out if the intel is hidden false when the player gets there and will report back to you.

I have a question for you, regarding the RS hideout though. I have randomized certain things in this mission so that it's not too easy or predictable for the player when replaying it. The RS hideout however is not randomized. That means that theoretically the veteran player could head there right at mission start, skipping half of the mission. This is why I hid all relevant items and the RS guys too, until the player talks to the traitor Vojtech or so. Would you think this approach is better, or should I rather lock the entry to the hideout and unlock it later? Locking it actually appeals to me more at the moment, because then the player doesn't even know what kind of place it is.

And Petja, I knew I shouldn't trust him.^^

I really laughed when you wrote that:

While I still don't trust Petja any further than I can throw a piano, he does seem to do a good job as quartermaster.

Again, thanks for the feedback on this cutscene too! I wasn't so sure about it, if the surprises are so surprising at all, etc. Or if the "directing" / designing is ok.




On your thoughts about the rather quick outro sequence: Hm, I think, you're definitely right, some light on Kamil, etc. would be good. But again, I feel that the cutscenes again are very long already... Especially when "Dimitri Sladek" comes. No idea what to do here.


Again, thanks a thousand! This motivated me to keep on working on the next version.

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Arma3 - Single Player Beta Testing / Re: [SP/CAMP] Black Lands

« Last post by Clayman on 11 Feb 2024, 15:30:25 »

It's hard not to comment your feedback on the sub plots. Don't want to spoil anything.

Ok, now I think I know what you meant by this. Thanks for not spoiling me. 

For some reason I had Blind Guardians' And the Story ends playing in my head all day long. Felt quite fitting.
So...

Where is Sergej
Holy Moly, what a mission. Undeceived, you're doing your magic again! 
You had mentioned somewhere that you greatly expanded this one and turned it into a massive hunt. But damn, this exceeded all my expectations, by far. I'm totally in awe of what you have created here. Although I failed at finding Sergej, I had a real blast at playing this. Just Wow!

As I suppose there are different ways to complete this, I'll write down all the steps I took and see what's what.
The first difficulty was to select the right equipment for the task ahead. I went with the G36 from the Picture mission and took an extra SVD in my backpack just in case. Actually I wanted to put some additional gear in the car, but as a approached the car, the cutscene kicked in and I found myself all the way in the east. Not a big problem, as I found more than enough equipment during the mission. That alone was very satisfying.

Talked to the guy sitting on the road, who turned out not to be Jacek, and with the other guys down the road, who pointed me towards Solnichniy. Didn't see much activity in the town but somehow the road leading to the quarry caught my attention, so I went there to investigate. Meet the three guys and talked to them. When going further into the quarry, I heard them mentioning Orlovets and their pal at the train station.

Went there but the guy was too drunk to be of any help. I heard the gun shots and went to investigate. Found the dead guy in the shed and the computer. How awesome was that PC animation? Reminded me a lot of the first mission from Underdogs, but much better. I couldn't figure out the password however, and no clues to help me were to be found. So I continued to the old factory.

Took out the Red Star guys hiding in the factory building. The guy at the top of the staircase was a bit tricky, as he could take me out before I could target him. Took me several tries. Eventually found the officers' note, which pointed me back to the quarry.

When entering the quarry for the second time, Tomas mentioned the guys from earlier left their drunk friend just lying there, however there was no one to be found. The dead goats where really disgusting. Poor Tomas. I found the clue and went for the house in the south. But only found the dead guy and no further clues around. Seemed to be a dead end, as Tomas mentioned. While driving back north I heard distant gunfire, but I couldn't determine from where exactly it came.

Drove through the forest straight to Orlovets. Meet the old man repairing his car, who pointed me towards Jaceks friends at the barn. Talked to them and finally got some useful information.
Going back to that construction site however had a very uncomfortable feeling to it. Somehow I expected something bad to happen and I spent quite some time observing the area before I entered the compound.

Of course it happened what had to happen and I was knocked down from behind. Poor Tomas... again. However, the guy turned out to be quite helpful, as he eventually took me to meet Jacek. I really like that the guy took my NVG and GPS, and later Tomas demanded to get his stuff back. Great little detail.
After Jacek had told me about his family and his cousin the Secretary, I went back to Orlovets to talk to him.

The scene I found inside the building was almost hilarious. It felt a bit odd to carry some equipment inside (quite a lot equipment, that is), just to prove that I'm trustworthy, while Jaceks' family (and therefore the Secretarys' family as well) was in danger. As I couldn't threaten him, even by killing his buddys, I had to do as I was told and carry all the stuff inside. The good thing was, that afterwards I could freely take everything I needed from the crate without anyone caring.

While talking to the Secretary again, he was constantly turning and aiming at something outside. It felt a bit unfriendly.^^ I noticed that the conversation didn't show up in the log. I later would have liked to re-read it for any information I might have missed.

After the Secretary told me about Vojtech, I traveled north and searched the marked area. Finally I found Vojtech in a barn and he told me about his brother, their company and eventually told me the password for the computer. So back to Solnichniy. I logged into the computer and found the file, pointing me to the hidden camp. When the computer had the bsod, an error message appeared:

Code: [Select]

Error in expression < "pictures\bsod.jpg"];
pc say3d "bsod"; sleep 20; saveGame; }
>
Error position: <sleep 20; saveGame; }
>
Error Suspending not allowed in this context
Finding the entrance to the camp was a but tricky and the boobytraps where really nasty. Clearing the camp with NVGs equipped and the gun laser felt really SpecOp-y, I thoroughly enjoyed that part. It took some time to find the intel, with all the clutter lying around. But there was also a lot of really useful gear to be found. However, the intel didn't seem to provide any further hints as of where to go next, except that it mentioned a Stash B-6, but I couldn't figure out what was up with that.

While traveling back north to talk with Vojtech again, I came across the resistance fighters in Nizhnoye, who were preparing to fend off some Red Star guys coming from the north. I decided to help them and together we quickly took out the attackers. Then I talked to the leader, and Tomas asked him if he knew where to find Jacek. That felt a bit odd, as I had already found him. As he didn't have any other useful information, I continued to talk to Vojtech. But he didn't have any new information for me as well. So I went back to Orlovets to talk with the Secretary again, be he too didn't have anything to say.

At this point I was kinda lost as of what to do next. As it was already late and I was tired, I decided to call it a day and go to bed.....


Day 2:
With new motivation and still no idea where to go, I decided to go to Berezino, as I hadn't been there before, to check out what I would find there. I meet the three guys in the town center. When talking to them, Tomas again asked where to find Jacek. Slowly I had the feeling that I had somehow screwed up the mission and something wasn't working as it should.

The rest of the town was dead empty and so I went to check all locations I've previously been to, to see if I had missed something. Unfortunately I couldn't find anything helpful at all, no one wanted to talk to me anymore. No new clues, no hints, nothing. After driving all over the place for more than an hour, I eventually gave up and returned to Martin...


So far this has been an more than overwhelming mission and I believe I have so far only scratched the surface. I don't know what to say, you really did an outstanding job with this. I'm truly impressed. 

Some things I noticed while playing:
Over time the briefing was quite cluttered with all the additional entries. There where two 'Notes' sections containing the different pieces of intel. On that note, something I had thought about in earlier missions, too, the 'Revive Teammates' and 'Adjust Brightness' could be combined into one 'Info' menu. And maybe those should only be in the briefing when relevant for the mission. I don't need the info on how to revive my teammates, when I'm alone on the mission.

Some of the conversations didn't show up in the log, like the one with the Secretary and some others, too, I think. Overall there where some discrepancies between what some of the characters actually said, and what was written in the log. Like Jacek talking about his wife and daughter, while in the notes it said his wife and son. There were some others as well, which I can't remember right now. (There was a lot of text in this mission.) Not a big issue though, just felt a bit off.

What I did like was the dynamics of the mission. Like when re-visiting an area, new people showed up, or others I had talked to before where gone. That made the world actually feel alive. Very well done.
Also the fast travel was a really helpful feature.
I also liked the background music playing from time to time. It added a lot to the atmosphere, although if it was me, it could have happened more often.

As I said, I'm sure I have missed quite a lot in this mission, and I didn't manage to find Sergej. I will definitely give this one another go soon. Really an outstanding mission.


Dimitri Sladek
Alright, as this one is completely new, I had absolutely no idea what to expect.
Tomas' nightmare was intimidating, another well made cutscene and I had a really bad feeling of what was to come. When going outside, I didn't notice the letter at the door. I searched the surroundings of the house, went down the road and into the village. But no sign of life anywhere. I went back to the house, checked the back yard again and was just about to go back inside, to see if I could just go back to bed, when I finally noticed the letter.

As I expected to meet Dimitri at the barn for the final standoff, I felt quite uncomfortable going there completely unarmed. It felt odd that the leader of the resistance movement didn't have a single gun in his house, especially with his arch enemy still around. At least you could place a pistol somewhere on a table to take along.

Finding Sergej in the barn was not that much of an surprise, but what followed caught me completely off guard. Damn, I'm running out of superlatives to describe my thoughts about that scene. I'm really a fan of stories with tragic endings, and this one was one hell of a blast to watch. I literally sat there with a huge grin on my face starring at my screen. That scene in the church, with Pribotow disappearing - just Wow! And Petja, I knew I shouldn't trust him.^^
I remember when I stared playing Black Lands for the very first time, this was pretty much the kind of ending I had expected. It was pure epicness. Heck, if it were me, I would scrap the other ending and go with this one as the final conclusion of the story. It's just perfect. And, it leaves room for a continuation of the story. I'm so looking forward to playing Black Lands 2 in like 15 years or something. 
Seriously, I don't know what to say. Thank you so much for all the work you must have put into this. Really impressive. 


Outro
As I'm still totally in awe, I don't know what to add anymore. The outro is beautiful to watch and it concludes the story very well. I particularly liked the scenes of my friends which I had met and lost during my journey. And the final scene with Tomas sitting at the lake. Just wonderful. You're the master of melodrama - and I love it. 

There is nothing to criticize about the outro. But when I'm totally honest here, after the journey I've been through, and I guess it's just that you raised the standards for immersion by far, the ending felt a bit too short. What I mean by this is, that I'd like to see more of the aftermath regarding the other men who joined me along the way, like Kamil and especially Tomek, as he was still alive in my playthrough. It would have been cool to see how his life would continue after the war was over. Just some food for thought, if you ever get bored.^^

Overall this campaign was one hell of a ride and I know why I fell in love with this back then. Probably the best campaign I ever played. You really can be proud of what you have created here. Thank you so much for this and for bringing it to Arma 3, and even better than the original one.